Why people give false advice aka CC is a good thing

roshke · September 4, 2007, 12:51pm

My guess is that it’s similar to someone taking credit for cooking the whole dinner themselves (when it turns out to be partially catered). Oh this? It was nothing! In other words, in the mind of the parent there are shades of gray and room for interpretation! I also had the same thought as CountingDown - could “no prep” have meant no expensive prep class? In some areas it really does mean that in people’s minds.

One other motivation I can kind of see in people who do this is their own desire to appear cool and laid back in a PC, non-helicopter parent kind of way - they feel that coming across as uninvolved is as good a reflection on them as it is on their child. IMO, anything to the extreme on the “helicopter parent - uninvolved continuum” is unlikely to be good.

AnudduhMom · September 4, 2007, 2:46pm

Isn’t that the truth, somemom. It makes you feel you can’t share any information at all, because it might give ammo to those seeking to bring your child down! I only rarely say anything about my childrens’ grades, scores or accomplishments, but it doesn’t stop some people from rudely demanding to know! I wouldn’t say they’re helicopter parents, they’re more like bulldozer parents.

So maybe it’s all in how you ask, and maybe one shouldn’t ask these types of questions of people who aren’t actually friends?

Allmusic · September 4, 2007, 3:05pm

The idea of parents torpedoing is so weird to me, actually. My son is in a competitive area (music) and those music parents and I do nothing but support each other. It’s a fabulous group, but maybe we are lucky.

I am so excited when I hear something terrific that one or another of these kids has done. Similarly, when they hear something my kid has done, they shoot me a congratulatory email or phone call. No backstabbing involved.

I cannot imagine sabotaging other people’s kids. That is just so sad.

mythmom · September 4, 2007, 4:33pm

-Allmusic-: What you describe is certainly how things should be and how we wish they would be. I found that support in a Suzuki school parent group too. Even after the kids left Suzuki we were all thrilled for each other. We don’t always even know each other’s names. If we run into each other at Starbucks let’s say, we exchange the ordinary how is so and so and where did s(he) end up kind of chit chat. Everyone is very modest about his kid and very complimentary about the other’s kid.

Not all worlds are like this. The person I referred to who was the most competitive was obviously somewhat disturbed and threatened. My sister-in-law is too. No, it is not normal to wish ill for others, but some do. And it is sad and painful.

The people most hurt are the children of these competitive parents because they do not feel loved for themselves but for their accomplishments. And there is such pressure to maintain them. And their parents alienate coaches, drama directors, choral directors, you name it, with their endless inappropriate advocating for their kid(s).

somemom: How unpleasant. A ten-year-old?

I have heard fathers at kids’ school sponsored fashion shows dissing the figures of the other girls, calling them porkers and thunder thighs. Yuck!

I have also heard mothers gossiping and suggesting that children as young as ten will grow up to be gay because of their mannerisms, behavior, whatever. This is particularly egregious for so many obvious reasons including the fact that there is nothing wrong with being gay! Apart from this, attributing sexual orientation to pre-adolescent kids is weird and abusive. And gossiping about something that should be private is also completely unappetizing.

In the last two instances I gave I did speak to the people involved and speak up for the kids. Sometimes I am not the most popular person.

BTW -Allmusic- my son’s girlfriend sabotaged him just to get his seat as first chair violin 1’s and be concert mistress. This was really sad because she was a lovely young woman in other respects and it pained me to see that this was so important to her. DS’s last concert of HS (she is a grade younger and of course, no longer his girlfriend,) they had their final playing exam for seat placement. (They were generally a point apart.) Conductor had said he would deduct a point for anyone who forgot his mute for the exam. Girlfriend forgot hers. S lent his; as he explained, “I don’t want to be first chair because someone forgot their mute.” I was prouder of this than of any seat placement. All was well; son aced the exam and regained position as first chair. Girlfriend will have this entire year to be first chair. I really do feel sorry for her.

somemom · September 4, 2007, 5:14pm

myth- yes, ten!! :eek: I could not believe it, but it put all sorts of off-feeling events & comments into focus, all of a sudden many things which had not made sense now did. D’s buddy had an incredible older sister with whom she was competitive, my D is also an amazing athlete (playing at the university level and for a US junior national team) so the buddy felt outdone by those closest and focused her inadequacy on my D.

In any normal world, the friend would have been an excellent athlete, but she never felt as good as her sis & my D. The D was desperate to protect his d’s self-esteem and went about it the wrong way- some things he said were likely true, it was the context and circumstances that were bizarre.

I made an effort to keep them out of such situations in the future and am glad they are still in contact today.

I saw this happen with another friend, two girls, best friends since birth, one an excellent likely future varsity athlete, the other a future university level athlete…parents of the first girl deliberately had to find other sports for their D as she kept comparing herself to one who was amazing.

It is not the parents of the group of amazing kids who sabotage, it is the parents of the one who is really quite good, but not amazing, but every one is too inexperienced or the kids are too young for people to realize that.

We have a group of co-athletes from activities when they were ages 4-10- 2 in pro ball, at least 6-8 I can think of in university athletics. We are all excited for each other, it is the kids who always came in just behind those amazing kids who felt a bit inadequate.

I did not know at the time that my D was going to be that kind of an athlete, part of it is her talent & personality, part of it is the luck of finding the one sport of all where she rises to the very top, part of it is the luck of coaches and teams and opportunities along the way.

The sabotage is sick, but I can see how it happens when a parent is scared for the their child and does not have the big picture in focus

doubleplay · September 4, 2007, 5:37pm

The vast majority of parents are supportive of all children. Unfortunately all it takes is one bad apple to spoil the entire education/sporting/fine arts/whatever experience. It’s sort of like a serial murderer. 999,999 of a million people do not commit heinous crimes like this. All it takes is one loose in your city to make everyone’s life miserable.

Remember a while back- the movie “Parenthood”? I hope I’m thinking of the right movie…there was a family with the stereotypical demanding/overachieving/perfectionistic parents with “perfect” kids who spent all their spare time practicing music, studying geography, playing chess, etc? And the other family with the little boy who ran around with the bucket on his head? Was that the same movie where a mom was giving her toddler “flashcards” to learn french words and esoteric terms? People like that scare me. They are out there…a rare breed, but I’ve ran across a few like that.

Speaking of competitiveness. The scary thing about the school my kids attended was that it put a great deal of emphasis on character and leadership (seems like a good thing, right?). Some of the team parents figured it would be a wise strategy, when their kids didn’t get enough playing time, to whisper some “rumors” about some of the other players that were. Like they were known to drink on the weekends, were poor role models for the other kids. It worked for a while; the coach started coming down on those guys REALLY hard for trivial reasons. No one could figure it out; it was as if the coach had it in for them. One practice the coach had these guys running for over an hour straight for basically nothing and finally a couple of the guys said screw it and quit. They never had any idea what had been going on behind the scenes. It really was very evil.

somemom · September 4, 2007, 6:32pm

geomom: I think the parent motivation for this behaviour is fear, fear of not doing the right thing for your child, fear of being a bad parent, fear of not knowing what every one else “seems” to know and missing the boat for your child. In retrospect, my kid could have had a great varsity athlete career and stopped there, but there was a lot of luck and a lot of connecting that got her in the right place to pursue her sport at a very high level, no one told us of these opportunities, or if they did, it was so very matter of fact as to have been easily missed.

So, I know that it would have been easy to not have had some of the amazing experiences she had and to have missed playing in college and for her country.

The recitation of accomplishment could have been amazement that things worked out so well for their kid, could have been surpise that it happened to them. I was sincerely blown away by some things my D got to do and chilled by the knowledge that had I not connected with person X on Wed, she would not have been at try out ABC on Thursday, so would never have been a part of something.

For example, D was on a local all star team, a higher level team was having tryouts for a state all star team. My D was the only one who went-several hours away- as the coach felt that the state group igores our small region and they could just see our girls at the next tournament. My D was one of only three from our team selected and there were some deserving kids on our local team who missed out because the coach did not share the opportuntiy. There were also some surprised faces when my D was hcosen, but other very talented girls were not-and they should have been!

My D did not go to the try out to be a keener, but because we were making summer travel plans, I could not wait several more weeks to see whether she had a shot at the state level all stars. Talking to coaches at the try out caused me to leave open the possibility of her making it which changed the entire summer for the entire family. How sad that some one else missed the experience my D had because no one told them attending a try out might be a better show case for their skill & style than just selectors trying to watch every one at a multi-game tourney.

There were quite a few times I wished I could share with some one the joy I felt at having NOT screwed up on my Ds journey by finding the right places to be and making it happen that she was in the right place at the right time. Of course, she was only chosen by coaches based on her performance at the event, but the most difficult thing was finding and getting to those events, it would have been easy to miss out.

As we went through elementary school, I saw many of those kids who are now playing at high levels effectively red shirt kindergarten, esp. parents of boys, making sure their sons would have full development advantage, watched parents of grade schoolers attending all the HS games and schmoozing coaches, it was rather intimidating. And it worked for those stellar athletes, other kids never grew into their potential and that schmoozing did nothing for them, as they were too small, too short, too whatever by HS. But there are a lot of slick parents, maybe people who were blue chip athletes themselves, who already know how to play the game when normal people do not even realise there is a game going on.

It would be very easy to realise you had missed out on an entire set of opportunties for your child and to feel guilty about that. I think the brag in the gorcery store is similar to the Christmas letter brag, just reinforcing that the parent is doing a good job- your answer could be “good job little mom” and that would probably be more significant to that parent than a compliment to their child.

Personally, when the other parent sabotaged my D, I began an overt philosophy to support every kid I could on any team we were a part of, to be their personal best, whatever that was- to learn all the names, to cheer for them all, to find plays on which to compliment them, etc. And, boy did that feel good over the years, as I grew to know so many of the kids on Ds teams, to feel a genuine thrill for any kid to get their personal best. Much healthier than the family who hopes your kid messes up so theirs can achieve!

somemom · September 4, 2007, 6:36pm

PS: Parenthood is such a great movie, it gets more poignent the older I get- who hasn’t had the retainer in the restaurant trash search!!!

mythmom · September 4, 2007, 8:43pm

I like Steve Martin’s character’s observation that he started with a perfect child who turned into him (i.e. with his neuroses and shortcomings.)

I think I am happy that neither of my kids is that good at anything (LOL.)

It is the misery of D’s life that this very feminist, ambitious, achieving girl was most known for her looks. She calls it the bimbo factor and makes a face. Anyone who mentions her looks goes down a notch in her estimation. She certainly was the object of envy during all her years of ballet that she could eat all the chocolate she wanted! She wasn’t as talented a dancer as some of the others. Her contention is that you can’t envy part of someone’s life; you have to look at the whole package and that very few people would actually switch if they had to take on someone else’s challenges along with their victories.

sjmom2329 · September 4, 2007, 10:26pm

Wow, she sure sounds like a smart girl! Way to go, mom. :)

mythmom · September 4, 2007, 11:11pm

Thanks sjmom2329. Sometimes it’s humbling, the lessons we have to learn from our children; I think this sage advice is meant for me more than anyone. She’s a wonderful person.

epiphany · September 5, 2007, 10:13am

While the test-prep protestations may in some cases be partly or even entirely true (or, alternatively, erroneous because of understated disclosure on the part of the student – you’re familiar with the syndrome;)), I have a different view with regard to the other aspects of the dynamics being discussed. I strongly feel after about 15 yrs dealing with competitive parents, that this (inaccurate info) is mostly about bald-faced competition. (Doesn’t the Gov’t call this ‘disinformation’?) My experience accords more with somemom’s & Annudah Mom’s – & maybe it’s because I overwhelmingly experience it from other females, not males. There are a few Dads who have tried to psych-out, scope-out, & discourage me from supporting my D’s in their own strivings, but overwhelmingly it’s been plain old-fashioned street intimidation by other women – behavior dressed up to look respectable. But, yeah, I see right through it.(At least now, in retrospect.)

Seven or eight years ago, some of these same parents in my life announced to me (unsolicited): "Don’t have your D apply to an Ivy. No one gets in. No one. Her activities won’t help her. Her grades won’t help her. Doesn’t matter that she has a 4.0. Doesn’t matter what her test scores are. Don’t even bother trying. No one gets into ivies. "

Now I must also state that the above paraphrased, group “quote” was from no one in the Tri-State area, so this was not some statement based on geographical realities, where it might “feel” as if “no one gets into ivies,” almost literally.

I also must say that such sweeping statements were similarly pronounced about UC Berkeley, about which I was told “no one gets in.” Now naturally, an acerbic corner of my brain wanted to remark to them on the curiosity of zero enrollment levels at these fine universities, but I bit my tongue. Mostly, I was in shock. These statements were made in each case with the utmost “authority” and absolute conviction. I should have caught on that Something Was Up. i.e., I should have made the connection that coincidentally their daughters (invariably, daughters) were the same ages as mine, and gee, could there be a reason they were so intent on “reminding” me on each occasion they ran into me, that “no one gets into ivies” (thus, don’t bother trying)? I mean, when I gently questioned their statements, they became more invigorated.

This is just the oldest battle tactic ever. Hey, even the Roman generals psyched out the enemy with intimidation. But innocent me – being more a parent like Allmusic’s acquaintances – I didn’t apparently have quite the competitive blood in me to recognize the bold attempt to cut the enemy off at the knees.

I think it would be generous/forgiving of me to estimate that 50% of the time, remarks such as the OP has heard are an attempt at deliberate disinformation, while the other 50% would be lack of awareness on the part of the parent and/or insufficient communication between student & parent. I just think it’s rare that when a parent makes a statement that the student never prepared, never did this, that, or the other thing, that the S or D magically, effortlessly made it into HYP without a major donation or other extremely valuable hook. Just because in selected cases such as marite’s & mammall’s children, there was no prep for one or more SAT’s does not mean that at application time there was similarly “no effort” put into the app, & before that “no effort” put into classes, e.c.'s, etc. There are also students on CC whom I believe when they say they didn’t prep (but still scored well), but that is different from a parent making a concerted effort to communicate to other parents of their S’s and D’s peers, that “no effort” was made, should be made, etc.

Fast Forward from the “ivies” remarks of many years ago: their S’s and D’s did not have spectacular admissions results. To my surprise (my gosh, I took those parents so literally) my older D did have quite good results. So, the “forgiving” part of me could attribute the earlier remarks to the parents’ anxiety: they were projecting. They were concerned, or “knew,” that their own S’s/D’s would not get in. However, they “hoped” that my own would also not get in, so they could feel better about that. They were also quite surprised at my D’s results – to me, confirming the dynamic of projection. (Since not a single one of my D’s teachers, from early elementary on through sr.yr high school, was surprised, nor was her violin teacher, who – he later told me – “expected that” and “could have told me” she would get in.)

For those who are neither clueless about admissions, nor projecting based on their own anxiety, they choose either or both ends of the disinformation campaign: on the one hand, telling you “not to bother.” (“No one gets in.”) On the other hand attempting deception by feigning the ease of it all. (“Hey, don’t bother studying.”) Both are attempts at claiming territory & trying to see to it that your S or D does not succeed with an invasion.

marite · September 5, 2007, 10:39am

Epiphany makes some very valid observations.

Since my S has been invoked, I should say he has always taken homework seriously. He was always prepared. He actually prepped a bit for the 7th grade SAT because he was not sure he would do well on the verbal section. So we can say that he did prep for taking the SAT three years later, insofar as he was familiar with the format and had a quick look at the 10RealSATs.
He also put in a lot of effort into his applications. The whole process was by no means effortless or painless, either for him or for me, as I nagged him about deadlines, recs, and assorted other issues.

There can be overprepping. S1 had a 10th grade ELA teacher who spent a huge amount of time assigning and going over word lists to prepare the students for the SAT. This focus led to the result that by the end of the first semester, the students had not even finished the first book that was on the class’ reading list, A Tale of Two Cities. I actually complained to the school about this imbalanced view of what 10th grade Honors ELA should be about.

Interesting about undermining. I have not heard of parents telling others “no one gets in” or students advising one another “Don’t bother studying.” If anything, I’ve been concerned that there is too little exchange of information beyond what the school provides. Maybe that lack is no bad thing!

epiphany · September 5, 2007, 10:47am

"I have not heard of …students advising one another “Don’t bother studying.”

I have not heard of that either. I have only heard of parents advising other parents to discourage studying for the SAT. To me, the admonition is suspect, both on its face & with accumulated experience.

doubleplay · September 5, 2007, 11:15am

I agree with a point made on this (or was it another thread) where someone said the “prepped or not prepped” question was a matter of interpretation (what is prepping, after all?). A student whose parents have had them working on vocab workbooks at home throughout elementary/middle school, or a student whose high school has an intense vocabulary focus or SAT-type reading comprehension program (or math, whatever…), or a student whose parents play word games every night at the dinner table, using the dictionary, students whose parents have read to them regularly throughout childhood, explaining the meanings of difficult words, using difficult words in conversation…all those students have had “prep” in some form or another, albeit not intentionally directed toward the SAT itself.

Those students who do not have that background find themselves scrambling the months prior to SAT to play “catch-up”. They’re busy studying the word lists, going over old SAT reading passages, picking up the reading skills tricks that others have either been taught outright or have learned through osmosis earlier in their educational career. Doing this through an organized “princeton review” type program is perfectly appropriate for people who need a “system” to follow. Others do better on their own.

When my oldest was applying to college, he sent in his request for transcripts to his school for a rolling admission college early in the fall. His GC told him they would not send out his records until later in the fall (!). When I got on the phone to his GC, she must have told the head of guidance because the next thing I knew I was getting a phone call from her telling me I was being a helicopter parent and should stay out of it. I was livid. IOW, they wanted to be able to bully a 17 year old around and didn’t want to have to deal with someone who would actually stand up to them. That plus the fact that they had already sent other kids’ transcripts out to the same college (I was told that they wanted to make sure the weaker candidates got in, and since my son would have no problem getting in, his paperwork could go out later).

My point is that there are people out there with ulterior agendas who tell parents to stay out of it so they can do their little underhanded manipulations. I wish there was a way to tell this college what our highschool does so they’d know that there was selective “water releasing” going on with respect to when they get their applicants’ paperwork.

somemom · September 5, 2007, 2:53pm

It does feel like there are more parents who would step on your kid to get their kid an advantage than there are parents who have learned to feel the joy of being part of a talented group.

Like mythmom, I learned from my D, she would truly rather play on a team where she is the worst player of a strong team than be the star, as she learns and improved her game playing with better players. Seeing this attitude played out over the years allowed me to avoid any subconscious need to see my D be the star, any wish to “put down” other players and I am so glad I learned from my D at her very young age.

I have seen some sick ulterior motives and also some people who put out one public story which in no way reflects their reality, it is just their story to tell the world. I tend to be very literal and take people that way, too, I’m learning not to rely on what many people say as accurately reflecting how things are actually being done ;)

geomom · September 5, 2007, 4:52pm

From watching and coaching teams over the years, somemom,
I can say pretty confidently that when the players have the attitude of
your daughter, not only does everyone feel better, they also play better.

I’ve seen the “stars” get beaten by the team with mediocre talent but tight
teamwork many times. Maybe we as a society could learn from this.

We all do better when we all do better.

somemom · September 5, 2007, 5:13pm

Geomom, I am not ashamed to say I have learned a lot from watching my daughter’s approach to life- much more fun, and don’t get me wrong, she si fiercely competitive, but for the team, not for herself, and that makes her and every one else better…probably the same in arts & music & life, sincere teamwork works well.

zoosermom · September 5, 2007, 5:36pm

“The idea of parents torpedoing is so weird to me, actually.”

I’ve posted several times about the mother who’s uber-competitive with Zoosersister (the mom, not the kid so much), to the point of physically attacking my husband. Well, the other kid has a slightly higher GPA (same range but higher) where ZS has PSAT scores over 500 points higher that the girl’s, which, along with a couple of writing competitions, have led to ZS having some amazing opportunities this summer and fall. We didn’t seek out these things (except for ZS to enter a writing thing on a lark, but never thinking to be chosen), but ZS was recommended by two teachers. She’s very excited about doing these programs, but I have knots in my stomach over the mother finding out, which she will because one is going to be in the newspaper and one is a big deal in school. I’m torn between hiding ZS under a rock and letting her spread her wings. This awful woman keeps me up at night. The shame is that her daughter is a perfectly lovely young woman who would make most families proud, but she has different and less visible talents than ZS. Not les valuable, just different. I wish her mother could see that.

mythmom · September 5, 2007, 6:23pm

zoosermom: I’m so sorry you have knots in your stomach. Yes, that’s the whole point. We can’t all excell at everything and external measures of worth are not humane. When other kids got honors, chairs in orchestras, all sorts of things my kids didn’t I would always say that Susie or Johnny were either more naturally talented or better prepared. It got us all used to the idea that they did not have to be the best for me or for them to be happy. Good thing too, because some of their friends and classmates did awesome things and we would have been miserable if we were jealous instead of being happy for them. This is a habit that can be taught; reinforced envy and competition is so destruction.

epiphany: You said what I was trying to say better than I did. The sad thing is sometimes these tactics work.

If we have happy, fairly well adjusting, achieving kids what is there to be jealous of?

Why people give false advice aka CC is a good thing

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