Why people give false advice aka CC is a good thing

NYMomof2 · September 5, 2007, 6:41pm

This is an interesting thread. I live in the hypercompetitive suburbs of NYC, where all children are “gifted,” especially if they live in the more expensive houses.

Like other posters, I’ve seen insanely competitive behavior by parents, but can’t think of any instances of kids being inappropriately competitive. (And I do distinguish between appropriate and inappropriate competition - doesn’t the word come from the Latin meaning “coming together” - that is, I can only do my best if you are a worthy opponent?)

One example: A few months ago I was looking into nearby public high schools that take out-of-district, tuition-paying students, because our local HS is not challenging enough for my older S. A good friend put me in touch with a friend of hers, saying that this woman had very bright kids who were very happy at a nearby HS. I called her, and got an earful about how mediocre the school was, and I crossed this possibility off my list. Later, my friend apologized for what her friend had done - apparently she was concerned that my S would somehow threaten her kids, so she lied about the school. I found this amazing, as the parents I know of really bright kids would do anything to increase the number of really bright kids in classes with their kids. After all, isn’t this why CTY is so successful?

Another example: a good friend and neighbor has a son who is in 7th grade. He is a very talented soccer player. His friend is a terrible soccer player, but the parents insist that this boy, who (like zooser’s nemesis’ daughter) is a great kid with many talents, play soccer to the max. Not only travel + recreational soccer (adding up to 7 days a week), but also MS soccer (practice is earlier in the afternoon, giving the kid 3-4 hours of soccer after school). The kid does not want to play soccer; he knows he’s terrible and has other interests. The mother, having heard that the MS team has limited spots and therefore kids are cut, has already visited the coach to let him know how damaged her son will be if he is cut from the team. Insanity.

NYMomof2 · September 5, 2007, 6:45pm

I agree, mythmom, that kids are fine with whatever happens as long as the system is fair. Some years ago, my older son and a friend went to a Tae Kwon Do competition. Three awards were given in their category, and neither of them won one. The parents of the other boy immediately started complaining bitterly to their son that he was the best, and should have been awarded a trophy, and the judging was unfair. The boy left in tears, and gave up TKD shortly afterward. It was obvious to me, even without TKD expertise, that the kids who won were much better than my son and his friend. I told my son this, and said that I thought he was about 5th or 6th. He had no problem accepting this, and went on for years more, earning a black belt.

somemom · September 5, 2007, 8:14pm

I think some kids are envious of others with more talent; when you are 6-8-10 you don’t realise the kid next to you is way out of your league, unless your parents explain it. if your parents don’t get that concept they may go into overdrive to protect your fragile self-esteem. In retrospect, I am amazed at the number of future university level athletes who were in my kids various rec league sports at young ages. And those kids were essentially good at every sport, you could not get away from them as relative stars.

It is vastly healthier to understand that all of us have different talents, different bodies, looks, abilities, etc. Interestingly, I think it is a personality trait of glass half empty people that compounds into this craziness. I have a kid who is a good varsity athlete who would never play in university who never felt she was quite good enough- so many of those better kids went on to university athletics! I have another kid who is not very athletic, who did all the sports as a kid for fitness, but never cared and her ego suffered not at all- she did not wish she was other than the person she is.

I wish I had had my oldest last, I could have done better helping her appreciate who she is and what her talents are. I did not realise soon enough her own internal expections were unrealistic, I could have done better, but I figured it out and I think she has, too.

It made it much easier to spot in other people- a desperate desire to protect their kid from heartache, approached the wrong way- helping the kid acheive some perceived goal instead of helping the kid find a better goal.

it’s okay to be 2nd, it’s okay not to be the very best one, it’s okay to be yourself. Personally there are a few things I would change about myself, though like an earlier poster mentioned, I am not sure I would take on all the good & bad parts of those people with whatever trait I admire!

doubleplay · September 5, 2007, 9:27pm

The only high school arena that I never saw that creepy parent competition-stuff going on was in, believe or not, varsity football. I think it was just too darn dangerous for anyone to care whether or not their boy was playing all the time! Who wants their kid, who isn’t really “all that”, out there getting his head crushed?

So everyone basically stood up for each other’s kids and went home happy when their own kid walked off the field with all his faculties.

The rest of the sports…no such luck.
Fine arts…no such luck.
Academic-related recognition/nominations…no such luck.

All that other stuff was not pretty.

epiphany · September 6, 2007, 10:38am

Regarding post 40: in a way “those tactics” did “work” – not to discourage my D from applying to reach schools, etc., but to deflate my expectations to an extreme degree. I bought all the hype about ‘no one gets in.’ I spent enormous anxiety over a 2-yr period worrying about whether she’d get in ‘anywhere.’ (So the propaganda worked mentally, not practically.) It was all unnecessary, & faculty at school were incredulous that I had really believed that her odds were that long. To this day they keep asking me why I believed that.

Re Post 41: Those examples duplicate almost literally what we experienced. In the second example, it wasn’t a sport but a performing art, and the girl was so obviously a no-talent that it was pathetic, but the parent spun it as opposite. Eventually, the girl dropped out of the activity out of frustration & disappointment at lack of awards, etc. Sadly, her real talents were neglected – either because of her agenda or her mother’s agenda about ‘proving’ the unprovable. And because her real talents were underemphasized in preference for something she was a failure at, it affected her college admissions! (She realized too late that she should have pursued her strengths, which would have advantaged her in admissions. She is now at one of her only 2 safeties she applied to, having been rejected at all the other schools – which were mostly unrealistic reaches.)

coureur · September 6, 2007, 10:51am

ZM - my sympathies. But I suggest you just put this woman out of your mind and focus on your own family and the other positive people in your life. Water off a duck’s back and all that. If she is going to come unglued over the achievements of others, that’s her problem and not yours. Life is too short to waste it fretting over people like that.

zoosermom · September 6, 2007, 12:36pm

“ZM - my sympathies. But I suggest you just put this woman out of your mind and focus on your own family and the other positive people in your life. Water off a duck’s back and all that. If she is going to come unglued over the achievements of others, that’s her problem and not yours. Life is too short to waste it fretting over people like that.”

Would that that were possible! As I mentioned earlier, she physically attacked my husband (who is twice her size I might add) and lives down the block. I’ve posted on other threads that we have reason to fear for our daughter’s safety with this woman. She is THAT over the top. But her daughter is lovely. Go figure.

epiphany · September 10, 2007, 11:01am

Not only is it true that people’s nefarious motives can be disguised within ostensibly well-meaning ones, I think it’s also true that good & bad can co-exist, making the jealousy, resentment, competition harder to recognize.

Only because of this thread (thanks to the OP) have I just this week realized that something similar has been happening to me – long after the earlier incidents I reported here (& those people aren’t much involved in our lives any more). It has been puzzling me because the person in question is a pretty close friend, & thus I kept trying to make logical sense of her hostility. The wide swings in her attitude I could not figure out – but esp. what I could not figure out were the nonsequitors. For two years now she has been suggesting that my D fill up her after-school high-school hours with either volunteer hours at school, or paid work at school. Given my D’s maximally busy academic & e.c. schedule & unavailability of free time, there is no logical sense to the suggestion – from an extremely bright parent, by the way.

It took my other D (being more objective) to realize the obvious motive behind the repeated badgering – although both of us think it’s subconscious on this parent’s part. It’s jealousy/competition about my younger D’s accomplishments – particularly in comparison to her own D, one year older, who did not achieve her desired college admissions results (due both to academics & to e.c.'s), & is unhappily attending a safety right now. (I take no pleasure in that; nor do I assume, at the rate mine is going with college apps, LOL, that she will have spectacular results herself.)

^^ the point being (the suggestions about volunteering, etc.) that she wants my highschool D to stop accomplishing. This kind of rivalry is a lot harder to recognize when it alternates with support, & emanates from a friend-- & harder to stop when it is subconscious.

And if I were zoosermom, given her reports here, I also would find it hard to put the hostility aside & just move on, given such a level of animosity. When it becomes an obsession on the part of a rival, just moving on is easier said than done. However, I do think that it can be helpful to confront such people with their behavior. The way I’ve handled this recently (because my friend tends to talk over me a lot when she goes on her competitive “binges,” making it difficult to get her really to listen & be receptive) is that I emailed her. I didn’t accuse her or criticize her: I merely framed her own statements in ways which would cause any true friend to think twice about the effect of words, and to put the supposed ‘disappointment’ (on her part) regarding my D back in her area of responsibility. (‘She cannot complete the volunteer hours within her limited schedule, & thus will apparently not be the student or person you would like her to be.’)

2by2 · October 16, 2007, 12:48pm

I just had to add here, because my feelings get so hurt by people like this.

I have, had, a friend who works full time- and is bitter about that. I would always tell her all new information I found out about the college admissions world, as I knew she didn’t have time to do it herself. She has always been sort of a one-upper, as is her son. But, I attributed it to self-esteem issues and ignored and encouraged my kids to do the same.

I feel like I am very sensitive to not be that way, as I have one kid who has overcome some really tough learning differences and his twin who didn’t have those challenges. So bragging about scores, or grades was something I just didn’t do at home or elsewhere, and frankly neither did my kids.

The so called friend- told me this summer- if you don’t tell me everything you know about this college admissions thing than my kid probably won’t get into his dream school (columbia). I did feel a little stressed by that kind of responsibility but i told her, I always share what I know. Then I find out that she long ago hired a college counselor. She never told me, never shared a bit of information she learned just kept sucking it out of me. I just felt so hurt.

Her kid has probably taken the SAT 10 times (which I told her wasn’t really a good idea), and they both lie constantly. Well, I assume that her son was lying yesterday when as a JR and 1380 M+CR SAT told my kids that he was offered a scholarship to U of Chicago! Which I told my kids could not be true. He does these things all the time, I know to intimidate them. I know when my kids told me, they completely believed him, why would he make that up? But to be honest, even as I write that I doubt myself and think oh- maybe he did and I’m the awful one to think not.

I feel so angry, yes, intimidated too probably, used, and stupid and worthless. …and I hate her and her kid and then I hate me for hating her and her kid!!! I guess I should have known when last year one of my boys rec’d an award and she called me at 7:30 the next morning to find out what exactly, they based that award on. Certainly I guess, there was no way my son could have earned over hers. She claimed it must have been a music grade that kept him from the honor.

I know we are supposed to walk away, not waste time or energy (my husbands advice) but even if I let go for a bit, a new issue (like the U of C) topic brings it back to the surface. Then I just go back to being mad at myself for being mad at her! Ugh… surely the hormones must be to blame!!!

somemom · October 16, 2007, 12:58pm

Her hormones or yours?
Just confirming the kid could not have a UChicago scholarship as a junior- maybe he got a PSAT generated (1380 OLD test or out of 2400?) brochure that talked about the UChicago awards available? Or has he submitted an app to leave HS early?

Don’t you feel the need to correct people when their bragging results in saying something you know to be false- like “full ride scholarship at Harvard” though I do know a couple of kids with full financial aid at Ivys and maybe they just say scholarship because it is too complicated to explain to all the lay people around.

doubleplay · October 16, 2007, 2:18pm

2by2,
I’m sorry that you have such a toxic friend in your life. I’ve been there, done that. It’s very difficult to not fall into the trap, when someone constantly brags about their kids, to not try to do the same. You just feel like if you sit there and keep your mouth shut, they’re going to walk away with some kind of smug satisfaction at your/your kids expense. (“There, I told her! My kids must be sooo much better than hers. If her kids were at all worthwhile, she would have told me. They must not be doing very well.”) If you fall into the trap of mentioning whatever it is your kids have done, she has a secret weapon that ensures her victory landslide over you every time- lies.

There is just no classy way to respond to people like that, other than avoid them. They are like poison- there is just no way to take poison and not suffer ill effects. So you put a skull and crossbones on the bottle, put it waayyyy out of the way, and only use when absolutely necessary (and very carefully).

The FA/merit scholarship stuff gets to me too. I had a friend a few years back who went as far as asking where, what, and how much S’s scholarships were for (they were all merit-based, we don’t qualify.). Then she proceeded to one-up me with a litany of her own. It just steamed me, because I felt like she intentionally instigated the conversation just to minimize my sons achievements. (I admit it- I looked up the awards she listed, and every one of them were need based financial assistance. She didn’t mention that, though.)

The same woman knows for a fact that we don’t qualify for any need-based type scholarships. I’ve told her many times. Yet she would repeatedly call me on the phone and say excitedly, “hey, my son is applying for this great scholarship, all he has to do is write an essay! Go look it up- have your son apply! It’s a great opportunity!!” Then I would look it up online, while on the phone, and say, “Marlene, it says in the first sentence that you have to demonstrate need.” Then she would invariably reply. “It does? Oh, what do you know.” But two days later, she’d do the same thing. Over and over and over. It’s like she wanted to prove to me that somehow we were “missing out” on something that she wasn’t.

Toxic people. They veil themselves under the cloak of “I’m just trying to be helpful.”

somemom · October 16, 2007, 4:20pm

dp- So she is effectively bragging about needing financial help? I always thought people were more embarassed about that than bragging- as Seinfeld says, not that there is anything wrong with that I think it is great to share info, need-based or not, but odd to be showing off- like, “haha, I need help and you don’t, therefore i am better”???

swoopes2 · October 16, 2007, 4:55pm

The book Acceptance by Susan Coll talks about this subject a little. It is FANTASTIC book about college admissions, even though it is fiction. I highly reccomend it.

doubleplay · October 16, 2007, 5:23pm

somemom,
I scratch my head too. But it’s not so much bragging about needing help. One the one hand, she doesn’t ever say that her sons scholarships are need-based. Usually there are other components, like… “scholarship will be awarded based on the following: demonstrated need, minimum GPA of 3.0, minimum SAT of 950, and personal essay”.

I think she’s just reinforcing in her mind that her son will get everything that everyone has, even though she isn’t paying for it. (Oh, and even though he collects thousands in FA and scholarships, he belongs to a very expensive fraternity, and has had his own vehicle since he was 16.) The whole thing just makes that little “Twilight Zone” ditty go through my mind, over and over.

Why people give false advice aka CC is a good thing

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