William and Mary / St Andrews vs McGill vs Tufts vs UVA

College Search & Lists
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Hi! My daughter is a high school senior and she recently got into both McGill University and the William and Mary/St Andrews Joint degree program. She am having trouble choosing a school so any input would be appreciated.

William and Mary / St Andrews

Pros:

  • get to experience both the UK and US school system
  • cross cultural learning
  • would hopefully get to travel around Europe during 2 years at St Andrews
  • good academics and opportunity overall
  • 2 different networks
  • may have an edge when applying for jobs (?)

Cons (these are just things I have heard):
-Boring locations (?)

  • Lack of diversity (?)
  • I am from the US, I don’t know how well known St Andrews is for employers.
  • she is worried she won’t fit in at William and Mary

McGill Pros:

  • Montreal. She love the idea of learning in a bilingual and bicultural city
  • Could learn French
  • Maybe better perception in the US?
    • Students seem slightly harder working (?)
  • more diverse

Cons:

  • Will never get the US college experience
    • Montreal is very cold
  • Grade Deflation

Overall, she am looking for a school with a very diverse student body and hard working students. She want to either pursue grad school or work in NYC or London after college. She was almost certain on the JDP, but after reading a couple reddits she realized McGill may be higher regarded? She has seen some people refer to St Andrews as a safety for rich prep school kids and McGill being compared to the Ivys
.any input will be appreciated. Also cost is not an Issue as both schools are around the same.

She was also admitted into US schools like Tufts and UVA, but she decided she wants a more international student body and wants a more international perspective on life. Also these schools would be around 80k and we do not think it’s worth it given our other options
McGill and W&M are both around 47k. Do you agree? Disagree? Thanks!

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I think both schools are great and I don’t worry about things like grade deflation. It’s not as if McGill doesn’t have grad school success.

If she’s worried about fitting in (at W&M), how will she feel about being gone - likely two years - so ping ponging from one to another campus?

Sounds like other than cold, McGill might be the better fit. You say she won’t get the US experience - but isn’t that sort of the point? Even with W&M, it will be limited.

To me, it requires a special personality and ability to integrate to do the joint program because of the back and forth.

Congrats to her on so many terrific options.

PS - it depends on how you define diversity - but go to section B2 - W&M is quite diverse at 60% Caucasian and a large Asian, hispanic, and multi race population and 5.5% African American too.

McGill is huge vs. all the other schools you mentioned in the US - so can she handle the size? On the flip side, Montreal has the best bagels!! So that’s a win :slight_smile:

cds_2023_2024_b_jan_2024.pdf (wm.edu)

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McGill is more like grad school, with intense focus on 1 subject (+possibility for a minor), assumed autonomy, etc.
Grade deflation is real - 2.7-3.0 are considered decent grades, for instance. Most US grad schools adjust (but not med/law schools AFAIK).
Due to a new Quebec Province decision, she will be required to take some French classes on top of her coursework, which imho is beneficial as she will likely want to wander away from Montréal - the requirement equals roughly to 2 semesters of Elementary French for the basics + conversational French classes.

W&M+StA: adjusting from one year to the other is the biggest challenge.She’ll be with a cohort, making things easier but only she would know whether she is up to it. StA has excellent reputation in Europe and is one of the better known Scottish/UK universities in the US beside Oxbridge. StA exams aren’t for the faint hearted and if she’s done the IBD she’d be better prepared than with AP exams. Both W&M and StA will be intellectually demanding but the students have fun too (neither is grad school redux nor a grind).

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So we just visited St Andrews, and previously visited William & Mary, and while my S24 was not looking at the joint program he is considering both individually, so I can tell you a bit about both.

St Andrews is one of the most diverse universities in the world from the standpoint of countries of origin. It is true they offer very little need aid and so the international kids mostly have to be able to afford a significant cost. But it has definitely become an increasingly academically rigorous university, with admissions standards for many courses approaching Oxbridge levels. So I think any sense of it being a “safety” or otherwise unserious college is very outdated.

The town of St Andrews is very lively with lots of visitors, but of course it is not a big city. Dundee is quite close, and Edinburgh not far either, but I think for St Andrews the university itself is by intention the focus of the student experience.

In that way it is more like a US college than typical UK uni, and in fact St Andrews has by far the largest US student population in the UK, with a lot of recruiting in the US. And I think it is quite well known in relevant professional circles.

But any such concern like that would be resolved by the joint program with William & Mary, which is also very well known in relevant professional circles. William & Mary is of course a Virginia state university, but it has a relatively high OOS/international percentage, and in fact a lot of the Virginia kids specifically come from the Northern Virginia/DC area, and as such are a relatively cosmopolitan group. William & Mary is also considered a serious academic school and really attracts the more academicky sorts of kids.

S24 didn’t apply to McGill but I looked at it and generally know some things about it. First, Montreal is a fantastic city, but it can get cold. I don’t mind but I have been in Montreal in the winter and it is the real deal.

As for reputation, I think there is a bit of confusion about all this because McGill is regarded as one of the top 3 or so universities in Canada along with Toronto and UBC, and so people sometimes assume that makes them Ivy equivalents or such. But the structure is quite different, they are actually really large public universities, and each make up a much larger percentage of the Canadian college population than even the largest US universities. On top of that, Canada has more of a sink or swim system in which these universities let in more people expecting more to drop out.

So in that sense, private colleges like the Ivies, or even smaller publics like William & Mary or St Andrews, are not really comparable. I think a better comparison for McGill would be, say, something like Washington, Illinois, or Wisconsin (or really all of those and more smashed together). Great research universities, but not on a comparable experience or selectivity model with privates or smaller undergrad-focused publics. And in fact, the UK equivalent would probably be something like the University of Manchester.

But of course this does not mean McGill is a bad choice, in fact many people would prefer the big university in a big city experience. I’d just suggest it is not inherently better, just different, from the experience at William & Mary/St Andrews.

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W&M /St Andrews is likely the best of all worlds considering what you have outlined.

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This was part of why my S24 did not end up applying in Canada (along with the huge sizes). It was also a barrier for him with respect to the Joint Program, however. You can only do one of six courses (aka majors) because of the way St Andrews works, Classics, Economics, English, Film Studies, History, International Relations:

Those are all great areas for those universities, but my S24 has a possible science interest which is not covered.

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I’m not sure which program you are referring to, but McGill Arts is structured with a “multitrack system” which has plenty of room for electives and/or a second major. See: Degree Planning Guide: Requirements

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You can also specialize further with the Honours version of a major, but it’s still possible to double major (joint Honours) and/or to fit in electives.

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I didn’t see which program the OP was admitted to, but if it’s Arts there’s a lot of flexibility in that degree.

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Both school choices are excellent so I’m just going to focus on one part that you wrote as a ‘pro’ for McGill - your daughter could learn French.

Yes, she could learn French
and she would also be dealing with the culture shock of a bilingual country while she only speaks English. Don’t underestimate that challenge.

If she already was fluent in French (at least to B2) then I would be very encouraging for McGill but if she is going with no French knowledge - I would definitely lean toward St. Andrews/William&Mary.

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McGill is an English-speaking university in a multilingual city in a French-speaking province. So it sounds like the new law would require her to learn some French (which would be a good thing!), but you could live comfortably in MontrĂ©al without it. Not that I would discourage her from learning French – it’s helpful in MontrĂ©al and almost essential in the more rural parts of QuĂ©bec, where many people don’t speak English (and folks in QuĂ©bec will be friendlier to French-speakers). But this would not be a situation in which she would show up to a university without knowing the primary language. The primary language for McGill is English.

Fair warning: if you learn Parisian French, it will still be challenging to communicate in rural Québec!

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I wasn’t talking at all about any academic challenges at McGill, I am aware the language of instruction is English. But culture shock isn’t solely about the academics
and that was what I was talking about.

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Thank you all for your responses - this is very helpful. Can anyone share their thoughts on the job prospect from those two schools (sta+w&m)? This is my other concern as well. thank you.

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I see recent Mcgill graduates often in early career roles in venture capital, private equity and investment banking. Not sure if that is what you are looking for, but I know many posters who seem to appreciate that career track.

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I have known students who had difficulty recruiting for US employers from St. Andrew. Does the student already have the visa status to work in Europe as well? If not, and she needs to work in the US, that is a concern.

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So in the US, my understanding is you would mostly be treated like a William & Mary student but with an interesting twist in that you didn’t just study abroad but actually got a joint degree.

William & Mary has an interesting position in the US college market. Technically it is basically a good flagship public–Virginia has a split flagship approach between UVA, Virginia Tech, and William & Mary. But it is also a very old college, colonial in fact, and its size and undergraduate focus make it more similar to private universities than most publics.

It is particularly plugged into the DC market (where it has a campus you can also do a stint at) and is very strong in government/public policy/IR things. But it is a true national school in that there will be some alums and widespread recognition in all major job markets.

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thank you all. Just to clarify, her major is economics, and she plans to pursue opportunities in investment banking and similar fields. Additionally, I am wondering if she can work in London for a period and then return to NYC. She currently does not have a work visa in Europe, will this pose a problem for her recruitment in Uk? And US employers do not recognize StA?

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She needs a visa to work in any country other than the US. It is very difficult to get employers to sponsor junior hires for a visa.
American employers recruit from American schools, and expect a typical American academic year with the usual availability for internships and interviews, though many of those are virtual now.

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International graduates automatically get a 2-year UK work visa. Depending on the field, finding a job however depends on having a 1:1 (or a 2:1 or with StA specifically it may mean certain grades) and proper work experience.
You can ask about work placement schemes and “sandwich” (ie., co-op) years. Not sure W&M/StA stusents are eligible for sandwich experiences. London Finance work however is well-recognized and can be leveraged in the US. ( @catcherinthetoast - wrt to leveraging UK experience and in particular London?)
StA is very well-known in the UK but obviously for a London Finance job the university’s name is not enough.

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Paging @Catcherinthetoast for his perspective.

I am very doubtful that your daughter would be able to work in London after graduating.

Also it’s not a question of St Andrews being “recognized” it’s more a question of having few to no resources directed at US employment (networking events, interviews, a career office that’s familiar with the US landscape, a robust alumni network in US investment banking etc etc).

My perspective is colored by getting a graduate degree at a British University and failing to find a job in London 30+ years ago, as well as a friend’s son who failed to get a job in the US after graduating from Edinburgh University 4 years ago. Employment is a bigger issue than many think.

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Yes, that works for a graduate visa so long as the final year and degree are from St. Andrews. For placement in London finance though-well, Oxbridge seems to have the lock on that.
Suggest OP investigates Wall St Oasis for further info.

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Then is McGill a better option here? Since both of her preferred program are outside of US or particularly outside of US,does this pose challenge to her career path? Will a master degree in U.S. after improve her prospects ?