Here’s an interesting presentation of data from the UK on this topic: http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/rape-a-lack-of-conviction/
Apparently the UK has a lower rate of reported rapes than the US, but also has a lower conviction rate for reported rapes.
Percentages are interesting.
For example…
Would you rather try 10 cases with 9 convictions or would you rather try 20 cases with 14 convictions?
Exactly. Also, the denominator we care about is not reported rapes but all rapes.
Case A: 100 rapes are reported. 10 are tried. 9 result in convictions or pleas. 90% conviction rate.
Case B: the police and the prosecutors establish a new policy of aggressive investigation and prosecution. Of the 100 rapes that would have been reported in Case A, 20 go to trial, and 14 result in conviction. BUT ALSO, victims think that they won’t be treated like liars or sluts when they go to the police. So 200 more rapes are also reported, resulting in 28 more rapists being put behind bars. Now instead of 9 convicted rapists, we have 42 convicted rapists.
So by establishing a regime of taking victims seriously, we’ve managed to get four times as many rapists behind bars. That is the number we care about.
I made up the exact numbers, but clearly if the justice system treats women seriously when they report, and doesn’t reflexively treat them like lying sluts, more women will report rapes and among those newly reported rapes will be some that are eminently prosecutable.
CF, as usual, I agree with you. 
Alh, posted this link.
http://jezebel.com/5908472/my-weekend-in-americas-so-called-rape-capital
The pants…
There is a video of a guy, after an assault, walking out of the building carrying the pants. That looks like evidence to me. If I am sitting on a jury, the guy carrying the pants has some explaining to do.
But of course the case never got to a jury.
We hear a lot of concern about rape charges ruining a young man’s brilliant future. What really struck home to me in the book is the level of destruction to women’s lives that occurs as a result of acquaintance rape. Frequently I read that women should just get over it and move on, but that seems much easier said than done when reading about real incidents. In the book it seemed to me some were valuing the lives of men over the lives of women. Even where it seemed clear rape had occurred, there was a huge concern to protect the perpetrator, even though the perpetrator was the only one responsible for the predicament in which he found himself. There was an expectation the woman should just let it go somehow and that the damage to her was less than the damage of being charged with rape would be to her rapist. Even though she was NOT the one responsible for the rape.
Pabst outraged me, as she did CF. Her actions don’t make sense to me.
We are told what women should be thinking and doing.
I like the book because it shows what women are thinking, feeling and doing instead of some fantasy.
@Alh, I like your post a lot!
In the typical acquaintence/campus rape situation, there’s no dispute about who the guy is or whether the sex occurred. So the issue almost always boils down to evidence/proof of consent. Which is often/usually insufficient. Until you change that fundamental aspect (maybe body cameras?) you simply cannot move the needle much on punishing rape. Because every process has to require some level of proof on consent.
That’s why efforts in other non-adjudication areas are so much more productive and potentially helpful.
And by the way, massive positive progress has occurred. As I noted above, incidence of rape in the U.S. is down 50-85%. Incidence of campus rape is down about 50%. And there’s no meaningful difference in incidence between college students and non-college students of the same age.
There’s always going to be horrible incidents, assaulters, police and prosecutors. But there’s actually far less of those now than at any time previous. But Krakauer wouldn’t be able to sell many books if he told that story.
Still thinking about this “just get some therapy and move on with your life” advice …
The descriptions of the impact of being raped by someone you trusted were eye-opening to me. I could better understand the level of anxiety and concern for personal safety. I could see how the whole world becomes a very dangerous place when you can no longer trust anyone. Nothing is predictable any longer. I don’t know how someone can cope with that reality.
There isn’t a binary choice. One choice or another. This isn’t the old days in Russia where there is one box of cereal or two.
Choose.
There is a sexual assault problem. That’s ok. We can work on multiple solutions and make things better. Not perfect because we are humans… But better. Bringing problems into the open is a step to solving these problems.
Krakauer vistied Mussouli this week. 500 to 600 people showed up. Most of them supported Krakauer. There were a few I am sure who didn’t. One lawyer at the end was pretty agitated with what Krakauer wrote.
Missouli has made great strides since sexual assault issues became public. That’s good.
I know somebody who was raped at a college several years ago and is going to therapy. She is having a hard time. Several years later, she is still having a hard time.
As one of the woman said in the book, “rape is a life sentence”.
When I heard my friend’s daughter’s story, I have known her since she was 5, the way it happened, this is not an isolated event. Woman goes to a party, gets drugged, wakes up hours later in a strange bed with no pants on. The guy who did this did this before. Others know. The situation is too perfect.
Maybe things are better now, but this issue is REAL! Today!
I don’t know why people try to diminish this issue.
Sometimes there seems to be the idea that since the rape is over and the woman has no lasting physical injuries, any damage going forward is to the perpetrator. The book made me understand there is lots of damage going forward for the victim, even beyond all the negatives associated with reporting (including rape kit)
“I don’t know why people try to diminish this issue”
Last night a guest was talking about her daughter’s work in women’s rights. She made me think the issue of rape is part of the larger issue of what rights we are willing to allow women. And what rights we allow men.
I kept thinking about your Friday Night Lights video link while she talked.
Final post for today about the book, which I did find extremely thought provoking.
The scene where a man is a character witness for the rapist and is asked if he would feel differently if it had been his daughter, and the man responds (paraphrasing) they are different girls, that it’s apples to oranges. That answer bothered me a whole lot and I’ve been worrying about it ever since. What did everyone else think about that section?
haven’t read the book, but I do agree that violence against women is pervasive & has got to stop.
Only a few of yesterday’s articles from around the country.
I agree that most assaults don’t get reported, or written about.
Just saw that a news director in Missoula was killed Wednesday night, along with a family friend.
http://mtstandard.com/news/state-and-regional/update-husband-kills-montana-tv-news-chief-her-friend-shoots/article_6b0d1700-f59e-11e4-b47b-9bce2b1537b5.html
http://abc27.com/2015/05/08/suspected-serial-rapist-charged-in-assault-of-6th-young-woman/
This young teen was assaulted in her house!
http://abc7news.com/news/video-sexual-predator-attacks-13-year-old-in-west-san-jose/701760/
This young girl didn’t get away.
http://www.ky3.com/news/local/man-from-bruner-is-charged-with-raping-14yearold-girl/21048998_32864108
And a 12 yr old girl.
http://t.recordonline.com/article/20150507/NEWS/150509504/101019
I may sound like a broken record, but the sexual assault when I was 13, broke me, and I am still trying to find how to heal, 40 years later.
This is a global issue. Think of how much more productive and less stressful our society would be, if we eliminated sexual assault?
http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/03/opinion/sutter-alaska-rape-list/
Reporting of assaults on college students has gone up, but I imagine that is actually a good thing, as it means students are empowered enough to fight for justice.
“There isn’t a binary choice. One choice or another.”
No, you always have to make choices. Since no one has unlimited time and resources.
My $0.02 is that the adjudication focus is very low effectiveness as compared to the alternatives.
Even if you can make schools, police and prosecutors better (and they are much better now than before), you can’t “policy reform” away the persistent lack of evidence. Which is really the root problem of the adjudication focused approach. You can’t convict without proof, no matter how great the cops and prosecutor are.
I was deeply offended by the people that testified for that one rapist at his second sentencing hearing. First of all, he had already admitted to raping his childhood friend, wth whom he in his own admission had no romantic relationship, in her sleep. So there was no doubt, no ambiguity, no misunderstood communication; he just felt like raping her, so he did. Secondly, he had already agreed not to contest his far-too-lenient two and a half years actually served, but he did. Thirdly, he had attempted to rape another woman, who also testified. I don’t see how it was relevant that he didn’t spend all day every day raping, but also fit some non-raping activities into his life. If I were the judge and faced someone who had the temerity to contest such a light sentence, I would have doubled it.
Ah but he was still a well connected member of the community, from a good family, not really a rapist. At least that is how I imagine those who testify on his behalf can justify it and that is what they are there for. After all, their point is he can still be a productive member of society so why put him in JAIL? I think this is where @alh’s point comes in- it seems to be the case that the mans life is more valuable than the woman’s. Or even if she is suffering as a result of the rape, why would she want to make the rapist suffer any more than he already has. Look at him, he has suffered enough and would never do it again. That’s the attitude perhaps.
Some women respond to rape by trying to protect other women. One reason some victims report is an effort to protect other women from the rapist. Other women, like Pabst, respond by trying to protect the accused man. They don’t believe in the rape. (or at least that is my reading)
Some individuals seem not to believe in rape. If it is inconceivable, it is pretty difficult to see it. No one could see it in the 70s where I went to college. I keep coming back to this point because the sorts of cases described in the book would never have been considered rape when I was the age of these women. The world has changed in how rape is defined. Not everyone supports that change. I do not understand why that is the case.
Even when the rapist confesses, even when it happens right in front of our eyes, there just must be another explanation. Nice boys don’t rape their friends and classmates. We just can’t accept that either (1) nice boys DO rape, or (2) they aren’t nice boys… they just really aren’t. This is a huge challenge to our worldview.
I have appreciated on all these threads how very clear sighted Cardinal Fang is about these issues. And dstark and harvestmoon and many others. I keep trying to catch up and figure this out because it seems very important for society.
Emeraldkity: I am so sorry for your experience. Thank you very much for posting.
Emeraldkity4, wow! Thanks for sharing your story. It is helpful to read about others experiences.
Many of us are the generation of the movie Animal House. Isn’t that the movie where a member of a frat wanted to have sex with an unconscious woman?
A friend was telling me when he was in a frat almost 40 years ago, the guys wanted the women drunk. Then they would bring them upstairs to have sex with them. Many women wanted to do this.
There were some women who were too drunk to consent. They were close to unconscious. Many women had to be carried upstairs. They couldn’t walk upstairs. My friend says these activities weren’t considered rape in those days.
I reminded my friend about the guy who came to our office. The guy bragged about going to a bar. Picked up a very drunk girl. Brought her to his hotel room. She had to be carried upstairs to his room. She was in and out of consciousness. And he had his way with her while she was out.
My friend said, “He raped her”.
I think the definition of rape is changing. I think that’s good. I think a few people have a problem with this.
If you committed an act 20 years ago that wasn’t considered rape and now is considered rape, are you a rapist? I would argue… No. But times have changed.
Animal House, if made today, would be a different movie.
Very thoughtful post, @alh. I have a son and a daughter. I do not discount any possible horror: that my daughter could be raped, either by a stranger or someone she knows. That she would put herself at risk by drinking alcohol or living in a culture (Greek culture) that can by risky. That my son could be a ‘nice boy’ and yet do something horrible. No parent can fathom any of these things and then, some parents will. I feel for everyone involved, I do. The accused in the book who is from our town is indeed a ‘nice boy’ from a nice family. But in the end I must side, if that’s what we call believing, and trying to find justice for, the victim. Justice of course does mean that rights are respected for all. But I’m just not sure we see that in all of these cases.