i would love to have a count on the number of times the word “justice” is used in all the threads on this forum, or even all the times you hear it in a sound bite and that isn’t a slam on you jaylynn…it’s used repeated by many people in this country.
Drug crimes aside, the US incarcerates more people in it’s population than any other developed nation. I don’t think we have ever solved individual societal ills (take drugs for example) by incarcerating offenders with little regard to their offense and the impact on society as a whole and that’s not even touching on victimless crime. If we can’t get it right, then it’s time to evaluate whether addressing crime is effective and consistent with our Constitutional ideals. Clearly there are the no-brainer cases, but clearly there are cases where one side or the other is going to proclaim “justice was not served.” Really? Is justice even the correct word?
It’s no wonder that our federal government has attempted to circumvent state power and “go after” colleges to take care of a societal problem that has no scope and the irony is that many of these kids that are involved in these situations are drinking - and drinking underage. Gosh I thought that was illegal. So perhaps start there and move incrementally. If we can’t enforce even the most basic, basic of laws what kind of message are we sending and what kind of dent are we really going to make against something far more insidious. The book was fine, but to me it was the same-o, same-o…drunk kids and sex. The only compelling story for me was the young man with 2 accusations and how that played out from the beginning through the sentencing and how their never, ever would have been a conviction without the police involvement.
The concepts is NOT to move offenders from the college society to another society microcosm to another society microcosm, that is appalling but unfortunately the author did not make that connection very well. The author also did not explore anything related to recidivism post conviction or even prior to being accused which I thought was a miss. As Amanda Marcotte points out although the 1 in 5 is already a known false statistic the sentiment holds;; That 1 in 5 college women have been assaulted doesn’t mean that 1 in 5 men are rapists.
I’m sorry, @momofthreeboys, are you suggesting in #180 that the U.S. incarcerates too many rapists? That when someone is convicted of raped they should not go to prison? If not, what is the relevance of your post to a conversation about a man who raped his childhood friend, with whom he never had a sexual relationship, while she was asleep? Do you not think that rapist should go to prison?
@northwesty, you keep saying that we can’t move the needle on incarcerating acquaintance rapes, and it seems to me it’s wrong on its face. In the neighborhood of 10-20% of acquaintance rapes are reported to the police, according to our best information. We have no reason to believe that the unreported rapes are less susceptible of proof than the reported rapes.
Moreover, women who are treated like lying sluts by the police often drop their cases.
Even given the reality that many acquaintance rapes will be hard to prove, if we get more reports and if we get more women who are willing to press charges, we get more convictions. This is simple math. There is low-hanging fruit to be picked.
Drug crimes aside, the US incarcerates more people in it’s population than any other developed nation.
Perhaps we should emulate France, where rape was not a crime until 1980.
Or Italy, where presumably wearing jeans make it impossible to be raped.
And what the heck is going on in Sweden? http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape
The number of reported rapes in Sweden seems tiny to me, less than 4000 rapes reported in a year in a population of nine million. And in Denmark, less than 400 in a population of five million. The cited article talks about the ethnicity of the convicted rapists in Sweden, and I have no doubt that some ethnicities rape more, but I also have no doubt that some ethnicities are easier to convict.
On edit-- Sweden’s reported rape rate is HIGH for developed countries. Most countries have lower reported rapes.
Momofthreeboys: Perhaps I’m completely wrong here, but I assumed post #180 was a follow-up to Madamcrabster’s #176
I am concerned about incarceration levels as well, but think it makes sense to put people in jail who are potentially hazardous to other citizens We could argue whether the boys in the book have learned their lesson and are no longer a danger to society. However, victims in the book described needing their rapists in jail to feel safe again. I think when there are laws in place that allow jail time for rape, and that punishment is beneficial to the victim, I’m supporting jail time. These women deserve peace of mind and their rapists free in society is damaging to them. This was one of my takeaways from the book. The rape was not their fault. The rapist is the one at fault and needs to just man-up and bear the consequences, even if that includes jail time. imho.
180
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That 1 in 5 college women have been assaulted doesn't mean that 1 in 5 men are rapists.
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I have no idea how many men are rapists, but don’t believe a concern about rape is anti-male. Lots of men are protesting rape culture. ( I’m looking at you, dstark.) It really isn’t an us (women) versus them (male) fight. imho. Again, maybe I am misinterpreting you, and if so I apologize.
I believe the roots of our judicial system are fundamentally sound. I think there are points in history where we have enacted criminal laws and sentencing guidelines that are questionable whether they serve the best interests of society as a whole. I think a judge and prosecutor have an obligation to the jurisdiction to determine what threat an accused criminal poses to that jurisdiction. The prosecutor is not the alleged victim’s lawyer, the prosecutor is the attorney for the people of that jurisdiction. If there are issues with what the prosecutor does there is a process for change that can be driven by the people of that jurisdiction.
I am also not in favor of mandatory minimum sentences guidelines in general.
I don’t know, about Beau Donaldson and what punishment would have been “best” as I did not sit on the jury and I do not have access to all the facts only what the author presented. I think with two accusations that he was a potential threat to other women at that moment in his life. Whether counseling and restrictions would have helped him I cannot say. On surface it seems that the system worked. I’m not sure that a couple years of incarceration will lead him to treat women differently and lead him to a productive adulthood when he steps out in three years or whether he will be a financial drain on his community for the rest of his life. He also has $10,000+ in restitution to pay according to a quick google search as part of his sentence. Time will tell.
Both Huguet and the other victim describe in the book that punishing Donaldson with jail time helps them psychologically. He is responsible for their pain.
ETA: Given the choice between worrying about impact on Donaldson’s future and Huguet’s future, I’m privileging Huguet because Donaldson is the criminal and finds himself in this situation because of his own actions. Huguet should not have to endure any more negative consequences of his actions than absolutely necessary. There have already been plenty. If jail time gives her any peace of mind, so be it.
True, but that is not entirely what criminal justice is about - it is not about seeking retribution for the victim although it “feels” that way to people, hence the “justice is served” comments from victims or the “justice was not served” comments by victims. The criminal justice system is more about the offender and if they have broken the law and/or is a threat to others, if the victims of crime get solace from a criminal being jailed that is a benefit to the victim and society. If I am hit by a drunk driver, the issue is whether the driver was culpable (of breaking the law) and in addition for punishment for that whether that driver can do it again and harm or kill someone else or has done it before. It might make me feel better if they give the driver jail time and hopefully I haven’t been killed or maimed. Is there a chance I’ll be a nervous driver going forward and have trauma, unfortunately sure. Is there a chance I’d be terrifically angry, with my personality absolutely. But if I want “personal” retribution I’d have to sue the driver in civil court. I have to abdicate to the system and do everything to help build a case against the person. Sure punishment “helps” victims psychologically, sure it does. Sometimes do people want “more” than they get from the system, sure. It happens everyday, all around us.
193: I am not framing this as retribution for the victim.
If I am reading correctly, Huguet and the other victim both state that they feel unsafe with Donaldson out in the world. They have severe anxiety. His non-jailed status is a continuing threat to their mental health, without discussing whether he is still a hazard to other women as a potential rapist. I wasn’t reading them as needing “punishment” to help them psychologically so much as needing him off the streets to feel safe from the possibility (however remote) of further interaction with him. They saw him as a ongoing threat. His behavior towards Huguet seemed to make that a reasonable concern. imho
ETA: A survivor seeking any legal means of retribution for rape seems justified to me. I want to be very clear about that.
Agree that the word ‘justice’ is used incorrectly often, and I may have used it incorrectly as well. What I meant wrt the Johnson case is that after the school process was used then overturned, and the defendant’s attorney inappropriately inserted himself into the school’s investigation and hearing and the way he conducted himself during the criminal trial, getting Johnson reinstated in school, reinstated onto the football team and acquitted, for many people, it appears that he got off scott-free. That doesn’t feel like justice, which doesn’t necessarily have to mean jail time. It could just mean an acknowledgement that a crime was committed, or expulsion, or being kicked off the team, all of which happened at UM and then was overturned. If I were the victim that would not feel like justice. I realize you will come back and tell me that I am not using the word correctly technically. But it’s how many would use it.
I could not have supported a guilty verdict for Johnson. The fact that they had their shirts off in bed, she said stop, he did stop (so she says) but “later” commenced would have been a dead stop for me… If she had her wits about her to say stop, she should have put her shirt back on and left the room IMO and frankly he could and should have left also. They are both guilty of stupidity and unfortunately stupidity is not criminal. I don’t know if there are many other facts in this trial other than what the author reported. If there are, perhaps I’d feel different. I’m surprised this one made it to trial.
Where did you get the notion that the accuser asked Johnson to stop and he did stop, @momofthreeboys? According to the book, both Johnson and the accuser say that they were kissing with their shirts off. she could not leave to go home, because she was home; they were at her place. Then, she says, he began to go further, she repeatedly told him to stop, and he raped her. He denies that she told him to stop.
After the incident, she immediately texted a friend that she’d been raped.
If you will never convict someone of rape in those circumstances, it means that consenting to the kissing with shirts off is exactly the same as consenting to sex. Is that how it works-- once he starts to kiss her, or once he gets her shirt off, he can rape her with impunity?