Woman Beheaded at Work in Oklahoma

<p>I think the problems will only get worse because Islam is itself deeply, deeply divided and is unable to deal with those divisions. Individuals saying things doesn’t change the institutional issues.</p>

<p>On one level, much of the ISIS crap is Sunni versus Shia, as is much of the civil war in Syria (and indeed the relationship of Hizbollah to Assad to Iran, all being generally Shia). The oppression in places like Bahrain is driven in large part by Sunni versus Shia. But Islam still speaks of itself as a universal religion and there seems to be a tremendous pull towards ideas like a Caliphate which hark back to the era of Muhammed. In fact, ISIS specifically uses language intended to show themselves as the re-creators of the Islamic expansion after Muhammed’s death, though they are mostly busy killing other Muslims in the name of ritual purity.</p>

<p>At another level, Islam is over 200 years behind Christianity in questioning its own texts. I’m assuming Islam gets there, which isn’t clear. It’s very difficult to find scholarship about the actual origins and creation of the Qur’an or, as important, the traditions of the Hadith. Raising the topics can result in a death sentence for blasphemy or apostasy in nearly all the Islamic world - remember, converting out of Islam is a crime - and lately we’ve seen a number of so-called “liberal” scholars murdered in places like Pakistan. While some Christians of course believe in the unerring word of the Bible - though I must point out, I’ve never met one who has ever read a Jewish translation - the mainstream of Christianity has delved deep into the textual origins of the stories and, with some reluctance, discusses how these issues present themselves in belief as modern people see things, not as credulous people in the Dark Ages might have thought. </p>

<p>At a deeper level, the Qur’an itself repeatedly says it is without doubt and without ambiguity, though of course it is extremely ambiguous in many ways. I’d say each religion tends toward its core statements: Judaism towards the elevation of the commandments - meaning the entirety of the mitzvot, not just the 10 - and Christianity toward the elevation of the Son and the claim that the path to salvation is through the Son … and Islam to the literal wording of stuff written in an almost illiterate society nearly 1500 years ago. It’s a powerful pull toward the past. </p>

<p>And another, related level is the institutionalization of ritual rooted in the era of the Qur’an and near after. The veiling of women became a social constant in Persia but finds inspiration in Muhammed’s separation of his wives (if only to keep away gossip). All these rituals are embedded in cultures which are not only male-dominated but which are much more non-Western than Westerners can believe. As in, the number of books translated each year into Arabic is - per the UN - was less 10 years ago than the number translated into Greek. We’re talking 11 million Greeks versus hundreds of millions of Arabic speakers. (I suspect that Greece’s economic crisis has reduced their translation numbers but I don’t think the number translated into Arabic has changed much.) </p>

<p>But what happens is vague statements - see David Cameron - that “Islam is a religion of peace” and equally ignorant though perhaps less well-meaning statements that Muslims don’t condemn Muslim idiocy. Islam is not a “religion of peace”: it is for some but not for others. The truth of that is obvious. Christians don’t say “Christianity is a religion of peace” because they know many wars have been fought by Christians, often against other Christians and often because of Christianity. They may say “True Christians believe in peace” or the like but that’s a value judgement which reflects what that person or sect believes Christianity should be. The equivalent would be to say “Islam should be a religion of peace”. There are about 1.6 billion Muslims and it’s safe to say tens of millions of them are committed to conflict. Generic labels don’t begin to address the underlying issues. </p>

<p>And again, I see no capability in Islam to deal with these issues. Moderates are being killed or kicked out or are fleeing for their lives. The Arabic societies in particular have demonstrated they don’t have much to recommend them in any material way: the Arab Spring was actually the Arab Autumn and has progressed to the Arab Winter. Honor killings. Gang rapes of women. Driving out minorities. Killing minorities. </p>

<p>Let me mention one example: gang rapes of women. It’s not only a problem in Egypt and other Arab countries but it’s come out that Pakistani men in central Britain have been recruiting (i.e., forcing) teenage non-Muslim (i.e., British) girls in sex rings where men gang rape them. Not one. Not 10. Not 100. We’re talking 1400 teenage girls over a period of about 15 years. That’s nearly 100 new girls gang raped each year in a relatively small area in the middle of Britain. This could only happen in a Muslim community which has brought over and perpetuated its attitudes toward women and in particular its attitudes that non-Muslim women are fair game or prey. That could only happen if the British authorities turned their backs on this and let it happen. Rather than become Westernized, these Pakistani men brought Pakistan to Britain. Rather than integrate them into society, the British let them stay Pakistani. 1400 teenage girls. Think about that and what it says about that culture and then try to imagine how you deal with that in something other than vague words about “Islam is a religion of peace”.</p>

<br>

<br>

<p>Are they also denouncing death sentences or lashings against people who aren’t guilty of crimes that would even possibly warrant those sentences …or when there was no crime, such as homosexuality? How about that crazy death sentence (that thankfully didn’t get carried out) given to that woman because she had been raised a Christian but her nutty gov’t insisted that she get put to death because her absent-bio-father had been muslim? </p>

<p>Are those things also being loudly denounced by Muslims around the world? And if so, what is being done other than saying things like, “we don’t like that.”</p>

<p>Amazing post, Lergnom.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Basically everyone is Islamic State’s enemy (see <a href=“http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/print-edition/20140913_MAC001_0.png”>http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/print-edition/20140913_MAC001_0.png&lt;/a&gt; ; of course, not all of Islamic State’s enemies are particularly savory either). However, those powerful enough to stamp it out do not want to have to deal with the messy and much more difficult job of putting Iraq and/or Syria back together into a state where they can leave and not see them fall apart again (with more noxious groups popping back up). There is also the realization that anyone powerful enough to destroy Islamic State will probably end up becoming the hated occupying power after a short while, since putting Iraq and/or Syria back together won’t be quick.</p>

<p>A beheading is terrible. This is terrorism - a lone wolf terrorist most likely, self radicalized on his computer over the internet.</p>

<p>Personally, I think our country needs to put more out there on the net in other countries for people all over the world to self-uplift, self-educate, self-de-radicalize and explain the truth of their corrupt and wicked leaders and governments. Kind of like a free radio broadcast just to laptops, cell phones, iPads, etc.</p>

<p>{In any case, I don’t see enough denouncing of bad behavior by ANY organized groups. Just look at the extreme hypocrisy of the politicians who espouse “family values” but have no trouble violating those principles. Of course, in no time they are on TV weepily seeking forgiveness from their god and their supporters.}</p>

<p>Well no, this really does not fall into the same category as chopping off heads. What an odd parallel.</p>

<p>Ultimately, the problem is that the places in the world where terrorism is born are countries which are ruled by oppressive, rights-denying regimes like Saudi Arabia. The rage that those people justifiably feel is redirected by their regimes, toward the west. If the people of those countries ever gain real representative governments which they believe in – which could take centuries – then the raison d’etre of radical jihad will disappear. In the meantime, any “war on terror” is doomed to failure. Jihadism is an idea, and ideas can’t be obliterated with air strikes. Even if we succeeded in destroying every last ISIS leader and fighter – an impossibility – the anger would live on.</p>

<p>As for the guy in OK, he’s not a terrorist. He’s a criminal, probably mentally ill. His radicalism is just the overlay which he picked up on the internet. </p>

<p>@ucbalumnus - Very well said and explained.</p>

<p>The way I see it is in such a case then the lesser of two evils wins. I rather be hated and have the responsibility of rebuilding a nation(s) than my citizens being blown to bits and beheaded all the time and my country constantly being at war.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I have not a clue how you can even come to such a conclusion. You really think just because he picked it up on the Internet he cannot be a real or serious terrorist? It is irrelevant where he picked it up, if he now believes and acts on it.</p>

<p>A terrorist does not need to part of or a member of any group. He just needs to believe in the cause of a group and be willingly to be a one man wrecking crew. I do think a major error we make, as a society, is making excuses for people’s evil acts.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I don’t think Bernie Madoff was acting out of any religious motivation or agenda.</p>

<p>I feel like I should provide a clarification since so many are quoting Islam as the religion of peace. [Very</a>, very basically](<a href=“http://www.whyislam.org/islam/what-is-submission/]Very”>Islam: Submission to God, Peace, and Prophets):

</p>

<p>

As far as I understand, moderate Muslims do not accept radicals into our communities. They find communities of their own. And if someone is a moderate Muslim surrounded by fanatics, I can understand their fear.</p>

<p>@Lergnom Quranic scholarship, as well as scholarship on Hadiths, definitely happens, although it can be difficult to find such information. And Quranic scholarship happens, because most Muslims believe it to be important. The Quran is, of course, central to Islam, but we don’t consider understanding it to be so simple. The Quran has many layers of meaning and study is truly important when is comes to trying to gain a deeper understanding. I do believe that the [url=<a href=“The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation”>The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation]Quran[/url</a>] says that certain verses are clear, others are ambiguous.</p>

<p>Us (moderate) Muslims say that fanatics and the like are not true Muslims, because they do not follow what Islam truly teaches. So when we talk about Islam, we are addressing what we believe to be our religion’s true teachings. We don’t take into account what radicals do when speaking of our religion because that doesn’t define our religion for us.
I believe that the “Islamic world” is a flawed concept. Many nations and societies claim to be Islam, but I don’t think that they are Islamic at all (nor do I believe that they are genuinely trying to be Islamic), along with the majority of Muslims, even though they try to pretend that they’re the ones who are looked up to. There are many societies that are majority Muslims and that do try to be Islamic, but you won’t see them shouting about it and you won’t see them in the media.</p>

<p>

I highly doubt that the British authorities (or everyday citizens) would turn their backs on something like this. I’ve lived in Britain for a while, and people don’t hesitate to call out atrocious behavior such as this. Not to mention there is quite a bit of xenophobia here to begin with.
People should be allowed to continue to primarily identify with their original ethnicity after immigration. They shouldn’t be allowed to implement radical beliefs and hurt others. These are two different things. Maybe this is a minor point, but the phrasing here bothered me a bit. Peaceful Pakistanis should be able to “stay Pakistani,” and I’m not sure whether classifying this behavior as something Pakistani is completely fair. When I hear of a school shooting, I don’t say that it’s someone being American.
People shouldn’t be forced to subscribe to ‘Western culture.’ And there are loads of Pakistanis here who subscribe to Pakistani culture and get along with everyone just fine.</p>

<p>

How should I deal with this? I don’t have the power to stop these people. But how people view Muslims and my religion is something I actually have influence over.
If anyone does have any ideas on how I can act against these horrible people, please say so. I would love to help put a stop to crimes such as these. Right now, I can’t see how I, as a Muslim, can do anymore then any other spectator to stop these crimes.</p>

<p>@mom2collegekids Yes, those things are being denounced by Muslims all over the world as well. As for what else is being done, what else can be done, either by Muslims or non-Muslims? I, for example, am a Muslim university student studying in the UK. What can I do about things like ISIS and radicalism besides telling others that this is not Islam?</p>

<p>stressedoutt- what you are doing, posting here and informing others, is doing a lot to educate people. You can’t stop what is going on in another country, by people you have nothing to do with. The only connection between you and them is their form of Islam.</p>

<p>Muslims are a relative minority in the US which has a predominantly Christian culture. Most people in the US, even if they are not Christians, have some ideas of what Christianity is about and are familiar with holidays like Christmas and Easter. The predominance of Christmas in the US culture would be impossible to miss. However, many people, including myself, are not familiar with Islam. There are only a few Muslim people living near me, and I would say I have a friendship with one of them. I know him well enough to say that I believe he is a decent law abiding man.</p>

<p>However, because of recent events, we in the US have heard many reports of barbaric actions at the hands of Muslims. In contrast to knowing one actual person, this is a lot of horrific information to process. However, I can weigh the news information against what I know about him. It is only one person, but instead of only thinking “Look at what these Muslims are doing” I can also think “but I know he wouldn’t do that”. Knowing one person, face to face, does a lot more for me than hearing “religion of peace” while watching the news of beheadings on TV. Even if all Muslims don’t behave that way, the fear these images invoke in people can affect how they perceive Muslims as a whole. </p>

<p>There is great variance in people of any one religion, and all people are influenced by their culture. It would be natural that a Muslim in the US would be different in ways from someone in the UK, and also Syria. There is also a wide range of variance of practice. However, when living in an area where exposure to that variance is limited, the predominant influence is from media. Knowing someone can counteract these messages. </p>

<p>Stressedoutt- you are only one student, but you can stand for who you are. Be the best person you can be. Be a good friend, be charitable, help others, take a stand, speak out, continue to answer questions. You can be the person others think " I know Stresssedoutt wouldn’t do that". When you see an opportunity to bring some light into this crazy world, do it. It can make a difference. </p>

<p>Ironically, on the same day as the beheading, yahoo published an article that included part of an interview with an Oklahoma imam claiming that Oklahoma muslims are afraid of getting beheaded by non-muslims.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p><a href=“Threats Are Now a Daily Event for Many U.S. Muslims”>http://news.yahoo.com/threats-now-daily-event-many-101500662.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I wonder if that sort of “we’re surrounded by people who are out to get us” talk from his local clergy influenced Nolen.</p>

<p>This is the kind of thing that can happen when the only information one has about a group of people is media. They don’t appear to be human. This is exactly what is going on with ISIS- their followers somehow believe that “non believers” aren’t human-that their lives aren’t as valuable. Only when someone believes that the “other” isn’t as human can it be possible to slaughter them. The same thing happened in Hitler’s Germany when, through propaganda, people were led to believe that Jews were somehow sub-humans. </p>

<p>I don’t condone the threats to OK Muslims. It’s another form of de-humanizing people. However, it is impossible to watch an ISIS video and not be horrified and think these people are behaving like animals. The error is making this assumption about innocent people and being just as barbaric back to them.</p>

<p>The only thing I know that has the power to counteract this is human-human interaction. It’s very hard to dehumanize someone when you know them, as another human, when you have looked into his/her face. </p>

<p>Thank you very much Pennylane2011. Your posts give me hope. It’s just that sometimes I feel like people expect more from me then I can do. I understand how it can be hard for people to process so many horrific crimes of radical “Muslims” shown in the media. I have been influenced by them as well which is something I didn’t even realize until a few years back.</p>

<p>I know many Muslims and consider some of them like family. They are the most afraid of and likely to be harmed by Islamists and we should never forget that when asking them to denounce this that or the other. Most still have families in the home countries whose safety has to be considered. That said, of course this violence is part of Islam. But that isn’t really the important thing, the important thing is culture. The culture of failed, illiterate states and communities where young men have no futures and are not in the respected company of women. Religion is just how their energy is channeled. In some places like Somalia, it is considered a complete reprimitivization of the population.</p>

<p>“Ultimately, the problem is that the places in the world where terrorism is born are countries which are ruled by oppressive, rights-denying regimes like Saudi Arabia. The rage that those people justifiably feel is redirected by their regimes, toward the west. If the people of those countries ever gain real representative governments which they believe in – which could take centuries – then the raison d’etre of radical jihad will disappear. In the meantime, any “war on terror” is doomed to failure. Jihadism is an idea, and ideas can’t be obliterated with air strikes. Even if we succeeded in destroying every last ISIS leader and fighter – an impossibility – the anger would live on.”</p>

<p>And that explains exactly nothing about what is going on right now, while middle class foreign fighters are flocking to ISIS to execute and terrorize people of all religions. Rage and hatred towards everyone, and the desire for violence and to force everyone to submit to their will, is not even focused on the west.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>As recent experience shows, trying to rebuild a country can be a long, difficult, and expensive task which results in one being hated, having soldiers being blown to bits while constantly at war against insurgents who do not like the idea of the country being rebuilt, and worrying about terrorist attacks (i.e. both of the evils that you mention).</p>

<p>“This is the kind of thing that can happen when the only information one has about a group of people is media. They don’t appear to be human. This is exactly what is going on with ISIS- their followers somehow believe that “non believers” aren’t human-that their lives aren’t as valuable. Only when someone believes that the “other” isn’t as human can it be possible to slaughter them. The same thing happened in Hitler’s Germany when, through propaganda, people were led to believe that Jews were somehow sub-humans.”</p>

<p>Though I don’t think that the only information the ISIS and the other violent crazies has about people is from the media, I am starting to think of them as sub human. I am thinking of them as orc like creatures, with the desire to kill anyone in the quest for power and dominance. Though contempt for women is pretty dominant in much of the middle east, these orcs seem to come straight from Mordor. They are pretty hard to humanize.</p>

<p>

I think it goes without saying that I don’t believe this. Still thought I would point it out, but I won’t go any further since this thread doesn’t seem to be the place for religious debate.</p>