<p>Still Dorothy, you know what I’m saying.</p>
<p>Go to Brown. Penn is the worst.</p>
<p>I differ on the Cornell “consensus.” As I’m going there, naturally I’m a bit bias. But I think I’m the only dam poster here who will use actual evidence to back up a claim.</p>
<p>It is my opinion that schools that do well in MORE than 1 set of rankings are truly “good.” Also, schools that do well in international rankings are known internationally. If you check out the rankings below, you will see that Cornell does well in numerous specific areas and fields, ranks well generally and internationally, and appears at the top CONSISTENTLY. You’ll also see that 2 schools - namely Brown and Dartmouth consistently are ranked below it. Many times, when Cornell is around the top 10 or so, those 2 schools are near the bottom 50 or 100. So sorry Brownians and Dartmouth-ers…but the numbers below back me up:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0509.collegeguide.html[/url]”>http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0509.collegeguide.html</a> (a rating of what colleges do for society: cornell is #4, other schools didn’t do so well…)</p>
<p><a href=“http://thecenter.ufl.edu/research_data.html[/url]”>http://thecenter.ufl.edu/research_data.html</a> (rates good research: cornell beats princeton by a few places, but brown is down at 50, and dartmouth at 44)</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.thes.co.uk/worldrankings/[/url]”>http://www.thes.co.uk/worldrankings/</a> (a general academic ranking by Times…I’d say these are very reliable: Cornell ranked 11th in US, brown and dart. are WAY down. Cornell ranks 13 in the WORLD by this guide, with brown/dart even further down)</p>
<p><a href=“http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2006/ARWU2006_Top100.htm[/url]”>http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2006/ARWU2006_Top100.htm</a> (another popular general academic ranking: cornell ranks high again internationally, at 12th in the world with harvard, princeton, yale and columbia the only ivies ahead. other ivies are far behind.)</p>
<p><a href=“http://ai.ijs.si/mezi/iassatena/shanghai-relative.html[/url]”>http://ai.ijs.si/mezi/iassatena/shanghai-relative.html</a> (another international ranking based on the one above. will allow u to dl spreadsheets and sort colleges by your own criteria as well. cornell’s at #12 in the world. brown at 60. dartmouth at nearly 400.)</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14321230/site/newsweek/[/url]”>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14321230/site/newsweek/</a> (another international rank system: cornell is at 19, brown in the 50s, and dartmouth doesn’t even make the top 100.)</p>
<p>As you can see from the above, Cornell is up there, usually around US top 10, or between top 10 and 20 in the world. It is ranked highly both in the US and around the globe, and it does well in many specific areas - it is ranked as a great research university and an asset to society. It is safe to say that Cornell compares to the other ivies like Princeton, Harvard, Yale, Columbia, and Penn. Dartmouth and Brown are consistently behind in EVERY system but US News. A reason for this might indeed be Cornell’s acceptance rate, low SAT range, or the perceived “ease” of getting in. And I would not suggest ranking colleges on that factor.</p>
<p>But I cite the numbers when I say Cornell ranks high. If you ask me, I say (along with many rankings mentioned above) that BROWN and DARTMOUTH are the LOWER IVIES.
Sorry for long post…but had to make my case.</p>
<p>Internationals tend to confuse UNIVERSITY reputation for UNDERGRAD reputation. While this makes sense in many countries, it simply doesn’t apply to US schools. Brown and Dartmouth beat out Cornell domestically, and USNEWS factors in things relevant to UNDERGRAD reputation that the rankings you mention simply do not include. In fact most of those international rankings don’t even make a distinction between the overall school and the undergrad school. There is no question that Dartmouth and Brown are not as highly ranked at the graduate level, but like the LACs that isn’t their mission. Dartmouth and Brown excel at UNDERGRAD eduation and do better than Cornell when it comes to placing graduates into top grad schools and they lure better recruiters. They also have more loyal alumni and they are much richer on a per student basis. </p>
<p>Apply this reasoning to Cal, as Internationals think Berkeley is the greatest. IT IS, but at the graduate level, not the undergrad level. Same goes for Cornell, STRONG GRAD schools but not as strong a program for undergrads.</p>
<p>It’s funny that people say Cornell always ranks as the lowest ivy on lists of only US universities. Cornell is ranked 7th on US News, first on Washington Monthly, and 6th on Newsweek. </p>
<p>Anyway, I have always veiwed Dartmouth as the lowest ivy largely because I didn’t even know it existed until I started looking at colleges. Besides, Penn and Cornell get attacked for having high acceptance rates but when you consider their class sizes, those rates are reasonable. Dartmouth is in the same ballpark despite having the smallest undergraduate class in the entire ivy league.</p>
<p>“USNEWS factors in things relevant to UNDERGRAD reputation that the rankings you mention simply do not include.”
USNews has a decent general formula, but it is biased against unusually structured schools like Cornell. As already noted, 5 of Cornell’s 7 schools are not traditional. They do not put as much importance on things such as SAT scores which hurts Cornell on the rankings. That is why Cornell’s peer assesment rank is higher than it’s overall ranking. People can take into account the differences in the format between colleges while a raw formula can’t. </p>
<p>“Dartmouth and Brown excel at UNDERGRAD eduation and do better than Cornell when it comes to placing graduates into top grad schools and they lure better recruiters. They also have more loyal alumni and they are much richer on a per student basis.”
Where are you getting that information?</p>
<p>“Internationals tend to confuse UNIVERSITY reputation for UNDERGRAD reputation.”</p>
<p>I believe these ranks are used by graduate students mostly; thus they are greatly based on research accomplishment. It’s not like companies from other countries aren’t capable of making such an obvious distinction. Also note that “international” doesn’t mean foreigner.</p>
<p>agree with Slipper, Brown / Dartmouth are flat out > than Cornell at the undergrad level - frankly its not even close IMO, for example, both B/D are superior to Cornell in the following key areas:</p>
<ul>
<li>Selectivity Rank</li>
<li>Graduation Rate</li>
<li>Student / Faculty Ratio</li>
<li>SAT (25-75 %)</li>
<li>Top 10% HSers</li>
<li>Alumni Giving Rank</li>
</ul>
<p>…plus…</p>
<ul>
<li>WSJ Feeder Ranking</li>
<li>Revealed Preference</li>
<li>National Merit Scholars (per capita)</li>
</ul>
<p>Cornell’s graduate programs may be stronger in some areas, but again, graduate schools are not Brown or Dartmouth’s key strengths.</p>
<p>Cornell’s specialized programs like Hotel, ILR, etc can’t really be compared with the rest of the Ivys. It has the best engineering, but I don’t think anyone will knock you for going to Yale instead. Penn is the only Ivy with a business school, so when comparing it to othe Ivys, should you include Wharton in the discussion or not? If you only look at CAS and liberal arts/pure sciences, it is hard to say that Dartmouth and Brown are clearly better than Penn and Cornell. D and B may cater more to undergrads than Penn and Cornell, but Penn and Cornell may offer more research oppertunities and give more options for getting a Bachelors+Masters in 4-5 years. Selectivity shoudl not dictate how strong a college is. Michigan has about a 50% acceptance rate, yet it is a top 3 state school, and you can aruge that it is the best state school in the country.</p>
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<p>I’m guessing you mean undergraduate business programs? I believe that Cornell also has an undergrad business program… as for graduate schools, Harvard, Yale, Cornell, Dartmouth, Columbia all have b-schools (MBA programs) as well</p>
<p>I thought we were talking undergrad, or Brown and Dartmouth wouldn’t be considered better than Cornell</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>yes we were. i was merely clarifying your statement that “Penn is the only Ivy with a business school”:</p>
<ul>
<li>even if we were discussing undergrad business programs, Penn is not the only Ivy with one (Cornell also has an undergrad business program)</li>
<li>technically speaking, every Ivy has a proper MBA program (except for Princeton and Brown) </li>
<li>it should be noted that Princeton is home to the Bendheim Center for Finance, which specializes in quantitative finance and offers an undergraduate finance certificate and the masters in finance degree and Brown offers a Business Economics track within its Commerce, Organizations and Entrepreneurship concentration (from Wiki).</li>
</ul>
<p>How strong is Cornell’s undergrad business program?</p>
<p>not as strong as Penn’s - but then again Penn has the no. 1 undergrad business program… i’ve heard Cornell’s is pretty good though.</p>
<p>Penn is the worst? Back up this radical statement, a77.</p>
<p>Fahood, you’re misinformed. Cornell has only cracked the top 10 of USNEWS ONCE! and that was in the early 90’s when they misreported information.</p>
<p>Dartmouth has always had a much lower acceptance rate than Cornell (and Penn). Dartmouth’s acceptance rate is 15% compared to 25% for Cornell.</p>
<p>I think your data points are wayyy off. But regardless of these stats, Cornell does much much worse than Dartmouth and Brown when it comes to competing for the same students (there is a Cornell produced document that says they lose 80% of cross applicants to these two schools), placing its grads into top graduate programs, and bringing in top recruiters. </p>
<p>Cornell is a great school but its always been known as weakest Ivy and that image takes a long time to change.</p>
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<p>r1400sch, most of those rankings you cited are based on methodology that seems like it has no correlation to how strong the school is at the undergrad level, and this can be see by just how weird their rankings turn out (UCSF 9 in the world, Penn State 6th in the country while Yale and Harvard are 15 and 16 on Washinton Monthly). If you think going to a school that has a large percentage of their students in the Army, Navy, and Peace Corps is very important to most students, then I guess Cornell is the best in the Ivy League. The Times rankings and MSNBC both use the percent of international faculty and students, along with citations per faculty as key compenents of their rankings, I am not sure why those components would be so important to most undergrad students. I think the US News and Wall Street Journal rankings both use much better criteria for determing which school is stronger at the undergrad level than the rankings you cited.</p>
<p>cornell or johns Hopkins which one will you choose for pre-med</p>
<p>What are Brown’s strong subjects?</p>
<p>Anything of or pretaining to the liberal arts.</p>
<p>Based on CollegeBoard, of Brown, Cornell, and Penn, Penn has the worst interquartile SAT range.</p>