<p>What the title says.</p>
<p>lala, honestly i think that is a bad question. the idea of ‘upper’ ‘lower’ ivies presumes that there are some better than others. first, they are very different universities and have different foci, so it is comparing apples to oranges. honestly this is how i would divide them. </p>
<p>urban research universities - columbia, harvard, penn
rural research university - cornell
midsized less urban - brown, yale
rural(ish) LAC feel - princeton, dartmouth</p>
<p>to each his own and i think that there is a compelling reason to attend any of the following over the others. if we want to say who has the best (X) program we might be able to say one is better than another. but i would argue that programs are not what we would measure a ugrad experience…as for ugrad experience, all are very good and worth consideration as top notch ugrad institutions. it also doesn’t mean that institutions that are non-ivies might not be better for certain people. columbia is very different than pton, i couldn’t imagine going to pton, but it is not as if i think we should deny its presence as a top rate institution. so i think it is what matches with who we are. i think being able to attend any of these schools is an honor - remember that 99% of students who go to college in the US do not go to an Ivy.</p>
<p>i really dislike the premise of your post. it honestly is an opinion that represents what is wrong with admissions today and why these 8 schools have at times inflated reputations or are unnecessarily vilified.</p>
<p>I agree entirely.</p>
<p>That being said, I’d say if there ever were such a thing as a “middle Ivy,” Columbia would be it (along with Penn)…but that is more by overall capability of the university than the undergraduate systems…</p>
<p>Duke, Stanford, MIT, Caltech, and University of Chicago–all nonivies in the top 10 which are ranked over many ivies–beg to be included in your list, OP.</p>
<p>Really, ivies are way more cracked up than they are should be. I denied an ivy for Duke, but if Columbia accepts me off the waitlist I will deny Duke for Columbia.</p>
<p>Don’t base your college choice of a label!</p>
<p>I’d imagine the common assumption is that any Ivy League school not Harvard, Yale, or Princeton is considered a “lower” Ivy.</p>
<p>upper - hyp</p>
<p>middle - columbia, penn</p>
<p>lower - brown, dmouth, cornell</p>
<p>Middle Ivy but with enough recognition and academic reputation to rival the big three. At least more so than Penn. Columbia is one of the premier Ivy institutions.</p>
<p>We’re fourth after the big three but they’re in a league of their own in terms of general recognition. </p>
<p>I’m just aware.</p>
<p>To answer the OP’s question: the “upper” ivies are without a doubt Harvard, Yale, and Princeton. The lower/middle are generally seen as: Columbia, Penn - and often Brown and Dartmouth. Cornell is usually perceived as the doormat, although this is subject to personal/regional prejudices.</p>
<p>In another 10 years, barring any major changes in USNWR’s rankings, Penn will be taking Columbia’s spot as #4. At the moment, I’d say they’re tied.</p>
<p>^^I don’t think Penn will ever surpass Columbia.</p>
<p>Well… I think UPenn = Cornell</p>
<p>i’d say “middle” but ANY ivy is good. plus, i’d also think that with columbia being in the city, job/internship opportunities are easier to obtain/find</p>
<p>penn will have to change its name first to wharton to be #4</p>
<p>Selectivity (2008 -> 2009):</p>
<ol>
<li>Harvard (8% -> 7%)</li>
<li>Yale (9% -> 7.5%)</li>
<li>Princeton (10% -> 9.79%)</li>
<li>Columbia (11% -> 9.82%)</li>
<li>Brown (14% -> 10.8%) </li>
<li>Dartmouth (13% -> 12%) </li>
<li>Penn (17% -> 17.11%)</li>
<li>Cornell (21% -> 19.1%)</li>
</ol>
<p>However, Penn is generally considered around #5 for prestige/quality.</p>
<p>hcvops… did you choose between penn and columbia?</p>
<p>Yes, he did. He was supposedly leaning towards Penn until the last minute, not sure what made him change his mind.</p>
<p>@katrider - it’s happening faster than you think, although if Penn’s admissions hiccup continues, it may take a bit longer.</p>
<p>@zzgirl - Aren’t you in Barnard? you don’t really know what you’re talking about.</p>
<p>muerta, just because someone attends Barnard does not mean she should not volunteer her opinion on a Columbia thread. As I recall, you go to Penn (after failing to gain admission to Columbia), but your opinions are most welcome. By the way, Penn is a very fine school, and a perfect fit for many.</p>
<p>Yes; but I also attend an IVY LEAGUE school and know a great deal about the dynamic of that sports conference, whereas zzgirl probably doesn’t, and therefore what she “thinks” is of little or no value.</p>
<p>Also, pbr, your parenthetical remark seems rather ad hominem to me. Are you trying to put me in my place? I was waitlisted at Columbia, but your phrasing seems to indicate that my matriculation to Penn was dependent upon my rejection from Columbia - this is far from the case. Just check my personal stats - Penn was my 3rd choice, while Columbia was my 4th. You might as well have said that I was rejected from Binghamton University; it would have made about as much difference.</p>
<p>I am someone who was accepted to Columbia (but chose Penn, pbr take note), and I share the sentiment of most of the previous posters: HYP are undeniably the top schools, while Penn and Columbia each vie for 4th place. Then Brown, Dartmouth and Cornell - not simply because they aren’t as selective (which indeed is not the case for Dartmouth and Brown), but because they have trouble competing on a graduate level. Penn’s and Columbia’s grad programs often share top billing with HYP, if they aren’t ranked even higher (for example, Penn and Columbia econ/medicine/business/physics are better than Yale’s, to name a few popular departments); and they are truly world-renowned.</p>
<p>If I had to split them up, taking the aggregate of research prowess, selectivity and prestige:</p>
<p>1) Harvard, Yale, Princeton
2) Penn, Columbia
3) Dartmouth, Brown
4) Cornell</p>
<p>To be honest, Cornell’s grad programs are just as respected as its peers, but I want to emphasize the undergrad more heavily, especially given the ugrad focus of these threads.</p>
<p>Do y’all agree? Pbr? admissionsgeek? Slipper?</p>
<p>I meant no offense; no attack intended. I’m sure many folks are admitted to Penn and rejected (or waitlisted) at Columbia, and many are admitted to Columbia and rejected (or waitlisted) at Penn. I simply thought it a bit ironic that someone attending college across the street from Columbia might be in a weaker position to analyze Columbia’s “standing” than someone who unsuccessfully tried to gain access. In any event, I find discussions of “prestige” and “selectivity” between Columbia and Penn (and Cornell and Princeton and ______) generally unhelpful and often inflammatory.</p>