<p>I agree with you here, pbr - Ivy League schools, especially Penn and Columbia, are all extremely good. It was very difficult for me to choose between the two. It’s silly to maintain differences, and I think that Penn and Columbia are more alike than any other pair of Ivy Leagues: Urban campuses, research powerhouses, luminary professors, both ranked within a step of each other.</p>
<p>alvie, you and I cross-posted. I COMPLETELY understand why someone would choose Penn over Columbia (or Princeton or Cornell or _<strong><em>). I ABSOLUTELY believe that once a minimum level of “prestige” or “selectivity” is established, the choice should be based ENTIRELY on other factors, such as urban/rural, Philadelphia/New York, university/LAC, academic interests, etc. OBVIOUSLY, both Penn and Columbia meet any minimum threshold (as do Cornell and Princeton and </em></strong>).</p>
<p>penn is a safety school for some applicants. columbia is not. there are significant implications from this that affect the student bodies at each school.</p>
<p>^ Whoa, just who is Penn a safety school for? :rolleyes:</p>
<p>Not gonna lie. This thread is making me sick.</p>
<p>^ Agree.</p>
<p>This is like women in a cathouse arguing over seniority.</p>
<p>UPenn and Cornell both have admit rate of about 20%…</p>
<p>Both are affiliated with State Univesity … Penn State, and SUNY</p>
<p>UPenn=Cornell</p>
<p>^ How is UPenn affiliated with Penn State?</p>
<p>okay this is why i started this thread saying comparisons are really just jingoistic dick measuring contests. they are unhelpful.</p>
<p>every single one of these schools is worth going to perhaps even over another one of the schools.</p>
<p>i do not adhere to the idea that HYP is better. just because they have stronger name rec or have (barely in p’s instance) better admission statistics does not mean you can say they are an upper or lower or whatever Ivy. i chose columbia over those other schools because i wanted a real urban city that would challenge and not shelter me. </p>
<p>so let’s bring this back down - we are dealing with a lot of variables and a lot of questions and trying to include them into an overarching analysis of a school’s rank - prestige is just one of those factors.</p>
<p>why don’t we rank schools based on quality of faculty? columbia and penn would more than likely outstrip princeton and yale (as most objective data sets show).</p>
<p>why don’t we add in number of classes under 20 and over 50? columbia has the most under 20 and least over 50 - does this mean that columbia might actually be more liberal artsy than princeton? </p>
<p>the point is that it would be too complex and in fact unnecessary to create a true rating of these schools (please no one bring in usnews, please). because there are so many variables in which one school is SLIGHTLY better than the others that it in fact evens out. so what is most important to point out? that they all rock, but they are all pretty different. even the categories i used have a lot of variance. a penn kid could might not do well at columbia. a brown kid might hate yale. in the end you have the feeling that the Ivies and a group of another 10-20 leading colleges and universities are true first tier. each with great strength and schools that students (could) chose over all Ivys.</p>
<p>and to conclude - if you guys can’t put it through your brains that each of these 8 schools are different and students may chose each affirmatively for different reasons - well, then it shows the quality of mind that goes on here. frankly - the real reason there is so much overlap in applicants between these schools is because you have prestige-baiters who don’t realize that applying to all 8 Ivys is illogical, all it means is that you want a prestigious education (which could mean crap if you hate rural, urban or hippie-ish middle sized cities) and not that you have done any research. try finding the schools you like, and if columbia is in the mix - rock on, you will love it and after you apply and if you get in, you should come! if you realize that you want someone to do your laundry for you still, want a place that is more touchy-feely where you can talk about your feelings in class - well, new york and columbia are not the place for you - please do not apply, you might just be taking up a slot of a student that actually might want columbia in all its glory.</p>
<p>oh yeah, and please please, stop with the nonesense.</p>
<p>UPenn was originally incorporated after the revolution as being a university of the state of pennsylvania.</p>
<p>So was Columbia zzgirl. both schools regained independence. </p>
<p>to be fair to penn, it has a very strong national presence now, great faculty, happy (and athletic) students, some of the best programs in the country in a number of disciplines. i wouldn’t chose it over columbia, but there are plenty of people on this thread and others who have.</p>
<p>lols penn is def not a safety as a ivy.</p>
<p>but overall, i agree with admissionsgeek. i would choose columbia/penn over yale and princeton. (i didn’t even apply to yale/princeton. sadly, only columbia wanted me lols)</p>
<p>My opinion;</p>
<ol>
<li>harvard, yale princeton</li>
<li>Columbia, Dartmouth</li>
<li>Brown, Penn</li>
<li>Cornell</li>
</ol>
<p>BTW I chose Brown over Columbia (was rejected from Dartmouth and Princeton). I think fit is most important. I think columbia is a solid middle Ivy, probably right after HYP along with Dartmouth. I don’t believe that anyone should choose between the “middle ivies” (i.e. Columbia, Penn, Dartmouth, Brown) for any reason outside of fit and preference.</p>
<p>@zzgirl
17% is a far cry from 20%, but it’s admittedly a step back. Penn had a poor showing this year, but that’s not really indicative of the school’s general trend downwards to match its peers. Regardless, what about your school’s 28% acceptance rate? Isn’t that a bit of pot calling the kettle a safety school? Seriously.</p>
<p>We should probably get back on topic.</p>
<p>To the OP - most people consider Columbia as a (tiny) step below HYP, and - depending on personal preferences - tied with either Penn, Dartmouth or Brown for “4th place,” or however you would like to put it.</p>
<p>It’s an excellent school, and you shouldn’t worry about issues of prestige.</p>
<p>well muerte, the attack on zz was not chivalrous. but to defend penn - admit numbers don’t tell the whole story. penn has incredible schools, departments and programs that people would be lucky to be admitted and chose penn. it is when people use abstract and in fact inaccurate assessments of who is upper/middle/lower, 2nd tier, etc. that things get out of control.</p>
<p>how about some rules then.</p>
<p>if you are going to come up with a ridiculous assertion of why schools A or B are better than C, tell the board your metric of comparison. is it because you like the sound of school b? what in actuality makes it better?</p>
<p>otherwise these are just dart throwing for the sake of it, and another stupid thread.</p>
<p>note that the OP on her other threads has proclaimed that she wishes to attend Princeton and has ranked Pton very high, and Columbia very low when asked to rank schools. she is trying to confirm her bias.</p>
<p>Columbia is the Middle Ivy between the Upper and Lower ones. Columbia is known to be just a tad below the big three. I view it as being much closer to Harvard, Yale and Princeton then Penn, Cornell, Brown and Dartmouth.</p>
<p>Texassoccer84 - until the 1960s, Columbia WAS on par with HYP. From the mid 70s to mid 90s, its undergraduate program went through 2 horrible decades - during that period, Brown (I know, it’s crazy) was considered the number 4. Following Giuliani’s cleanup, Columbia became excellent again, but I wouldn’t say that it’s the number 4 that separates Penn and Dartmouth from HYP. It’s on par with those schools… but it does not exceed them.</p>
<p>Agree with Muerta.</p>
<p>I dont think of brown as a “lower”… I think if there are “lowers” it is UPenn and Cornell (hotel management)</p>
<p>The only reason why anyone would consider Cornell below every other Ivy is on account of prestige issues. Otherwise, one might argue that it is on par with its peers.</p>
<p>Therefore, it is delusional and ridiculous to argue that the difference in prestige between Columbia and HYP is negligible.
There are even posters who have been arguing that even UPenn doesn’t deserve to be named alongside Columbia because it has not been consistently well-regarded.</p>
<p>However, HYP will always remain as the pinnacles of excellence in the eyes of the wealthy and powerful WASP establishment, and, consequently, they will continue to enjoy their veneration and superior success with regards to employment and professional school admissions.</p>