Yet another thread against Affirmative Action (boo)

<p>In short, I am against AA. I believe that income should be the sole factor taken into consideration regarding the applicant’s background, since a poor white student may suffer more than a rich black student. Below are my arguments (dunno if they’ve already been mentioned). </p>

<p>A) If the primary goal for AA is to adjust and compensate for the discrimination and unfair disadvantages based on race faced by minorities, then we might as well give advantages in college admission to ugly and fat people. They’ve probably underwent similar if not greater derision and social isolation. Many aspects of appearance (such as height) are like race: they are uncontrollable factors. It’s completely chance as to what race or ethnicity one is. </p>

<p>B) If the goal for AA is to create “diversity”, wouldn’t being extraordinarily fat or ugly create greater campus contrasts too? With the same logic, perhaps belief in Nazism and membership in KKK should be considered hooks as well, since the Ivies could use a little more Hitler youth and racists.</p>

<p>I want to write an essay on this, but am afraid that my argument is completely bogus. Please comment.</p>

<p>Disclaimer: I have nothing against minorities.</p>

<p>

I would focus on how ‘diversity’ is garbage. Diversity means that every viewpoint/every culture has equal weight, which is obviously not true. You can make an ad absurdum by mentioning KKK and Nazis. PM if you have specific questions.</p>

<p>thanks brew. does the lack of replies mean that my argument is shocking in a good way or bad way? come on people, be passionate about this topic :)</p>

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<p>I think you should go with your fears here and think of a better topic with sounder arguments for your essay.</p>

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<p>Nope. Diversity doesn’t mean that at all. Try a dictionary. None of them say anything about differences having or needing equal weight in order to create diversity:</p>

<p>di·ver·si·ty n. pl. di·ver·si·ties</p>

<pre><code> 1. The fact or quality of being diverse; difference.
2. A point or respect in which things differ.
</code></pre>

<ol>
<li>Variety or multiformity: “Charles Darwin saw in the diversity of species the principles of evolution that operated to generate the species: variation, competition and selection” (Scientific American).</li>
</ol>

<p>Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, </p>

<p>Main Entry: di·ver·si·ty
Pronunciation: d&-'v&r-s&-tE, dI-
Function: noun
: DIVERSITY OF CITIZENSHIP</p>

<p>Source: Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.</p>

<p>diversity</p>

<p>n 1: noticeable heterogeneity; “a diversity of possibilities”; “the range and variety of his work is amazing” [syn: diverseness, multifariousness, variety] 2: the condition or result of being changed</p>

<p><em>hopes no one gets offended</em></p>

<p>You could argue how AA devalues the work of a person because they are a specific race. IE A URM with the same numbers or even slightly lower (sat scores etc) as say a white student. The URM would be looked upon more favorably. Thus devaluing the work and effort of the white student. Ironically it can also send the message to the URM that they are not capable enough to be judged solely upon their body of work.</p>

<p>In a sense, raising the bar by lowering it and also reverse racism. </p>

<p>AA punishes the current generation of whites for something they had no control or impact on. Which seems unfair to me and racist. It is basically claiming that all whites were slave owners and racists and now they all have to pay up for their misdeeds.</p>

<p>You should focus more on your argument of how income should be the sole determining factor. </p>

<p>By simply removing the Ethnicity section on applications, would be taking a step in the right direction.</p>

<p>i think the OP is taking a very moderate view on AA… i think its safe to say that AA isn’t a perfect system, and perhaps a way to fix it would be to consider economic status rather than race. that seems very reasonable to me, but i am sure that doing so would create even more unexpected problems.</p>

<p>going along with the same argument that race shouldn’t be used in admissions, how about we get rid of all legacy consideration as well? sorry that i cannot give specific data, but i have read research indicating that a greater number of students have benefited from legacy status in comparison to the number of students who have benefited from AA status.</p>

<p>i do not want to generalize, but the issue of AA becomes more and more heated as a university becomes more and more selective… at a large state school, there are many spots open, and if you have to grades you are essentially in. at highly selective universities/colleges, race is definitely more in consideration. as i said, this is a broad generalization.</p>

<p>people say that ‘unworthy’ URMs gain access to top universities citing lower GPAs and SAT scores, but if you look at SAT ranges for URM who benefited from AA, the SAT ranges are much much higher than the average caucasian SAT range. if an URM has an SAT score of 1400, and a caucasian has an SAT score of 1550, is that 150 score difference really that large? both applicants have high scores. and since the SAT score of 1400 is much higher than average, an assumption can be made that the 1400 URM applicant can handle the workload at the competitive highly selective college. it’s also more likely that the URM applicant has faced greater challenges in life. although this is debatable, numerically URMs earn lower wages, live in lower class neighborhoods more often, etc etc etc. Again, this is a broad generalization, and of course there are instances where a URM may unethically benefit from AA over a lower class caucasian… but that doesn’t seem as likely.</p>

<p>that was looong. i did a report on AA and i’ve become a firm supporter in it. i don’t think its perfect, but it’s a start in the right direction.</p>

<p>I have a problem when my son’s friend who is Hispanic, both parents professionals, live in one of the richest suburbs, gets huge scholarships and into schools that his other friend, white, poor, one parent college grad, same or better scores/ecs/gpa, could not get into, no special scholarships for her.</p>

<p>“Diversity” treats men not as individuals but members of their race. i.e. You are not Jamal, but you are an African American, or whatever bollocks. The colleges want a diverse campus so that there can be lots of ideas. What is wrong with this? The premise is that races are inherently different and each race has a different set of ideas. Which brings me back to my first point. Further more, diversity and political correctness are interrelated: i.e., its great to protest globalization and Columbus Day because after all, civilized men are no better than savages. Diversity is a code word for egalitarianism, and holds that all ideas and thoughts have equal value.</p>

<p>Bobert whatever you do, do not take a ‘moderate’ view on AA. Feel free to blast it out of the water.</p>

<p>Coureur: Refer to my previous post. You don’t get what affirmative action or gun control means by looking it up in the dictionary…same with ‘diversity’.</p>

<p>thanks everyone for your insight. i have two concerns</p>

<ol>
<li><p>what does everyone think of my original argument with the “fat and ugly” people? is it even worth approaching the essay in that manner?</p></li>
<li><p>has there been some other threads in CC where this topic is heatedly discussed? maybe they will help me too</p></li>
</ol>

<p>and yes, why moderate? i’ll be firm in my stance</p>

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<p>Oh boy. Use the Search function for affirmative action and I bet you’ll see a little of everything, from respectful, well-thought out discussion on each side to the “bile and spittle” genre of debate. </p>

<p>Good luck, I’m staying out of it except for one comment. Topics such as these can be very provocative, but they generally require very, very good writers to truly do them justice. If you feel that’s you, go for it.</p>

<ol>
<li> While there has been some documented discrimination against fat/ugly people, there is a difference between that and race or gender. You can look at someone’s name and know, often, what race or gender they are. You cannot look at a name alone and see “fat” or “ugly.” There have been studies in which identical resumes were sent out to people, some with a woman’s name and some with a man’s name. Engineering professors more often recommended the male for a Ph.D. position.<br></li>
</ol>

<p>As for fat/ugly in of itself… there are very, very few high schoolers with either problem. Between the plethora of sports opportunities, a youthful metabolism, and the fact that you can determine what you eat, there are very few fat, active people at your age. Not saying that I’m not very sympathetic to those who are both overweight and healthy, but it’s rare. Also, at 17, simple grooming and cleanliness assures that you look at least pretty good. </p>

<p>I know that doesn’t really address your issue, but, in many ways, our society “blames” fat/ugly people for being that way. The discrimination also tends to be more social in nature; it is not very academic. The limited social discrimination doesn’t apply too much in many areas - perhaps a concert band director may choose a prettier, less talented violinist; however, the basketball coach may actually prefer a woman who looks less girly and more like she’s going to maul the opposition. There are, believe it or not, many women who have trouble because they are too pretty, perky, or whatever. I am not very pretty but ran into my share of trouble because I’m blonde (not bleached; not dyed; just have light hair). If you try to guess what discrimination someone went through based on their looks, it’s going to be a nightmare. </p>

<p>I disagree with income being the sole determinant. You can be a very low-income person but have a lot of opportunities - I know a few people who were able to live in apartments, small houses, or with grandparents so they could afford to live in a ritzy town with great school systems. Income, IMO, is a mediocre proxy for opportunity. I think that I’m a great example - my parents make a very nice income; however, only one of them finished college. They are just excellent businesspeople who are successful, but not academically inclined. Having a straight-A student on their hands was a surprise for them. I pretty much had to figure out the path to a top school on my own, because no one really knew. I didn’t do CTY or academic camps or anything else that helps you to stand out in college apps - we simply did not know about them nor think them important. Contrast that with the kids of teachers, who don’t have as much money but have much more academically-inclined households. </p>

<p>You are also leaving out a plethora of things that make people interesting. AA does more than rectify past wrongs - it insures that the campus is not full of white, upper-middle class students from the Boston suburbs and magnet schools. If you are talking about educational opportunities, there’s kids who have moved a lot (parents in the military), homeschoolers, kids from bad school systems, kids whose schools might be good but did not offer a lot of APs (like mine), etc. Then there’s other types of diversity: socioeconomic, political, geographic, international (people who were born abroad), all of which makes a class substantially more interesting. </p>

<p>Why don’t you advocate for the more moderate approach of having an essay that is used to show why you are special? Are you the kid who spent senior year in Pakistan? Did you grow up in a single-parent home? Are you going to be the only Democrat on campus in a traditional, Southern school? What about you is so neat that you are going to add to campus? In the alternative, what educational opportunities were denied to you?</p>

<p>Is the essay for your application? In that case, forget it. Whatever good arguments you could make either pro or con AA, it’s irrelevant. The essay has to be about you, not about AA, not about other people. Take the last paragraph of Ariesathena’s post to heart. Show why the college should be admitting YOU.</p>

<p>I remember being resentful of affirmative action when I was applying to college. After all, my parents hadn’t gone to college; my grandfather was a coal miner. Why, I wondered, should the children of black professionals be given the nod over me? </p>

<p>I didn’t write an essay on the topic on any of my applications, but did include a wisecrack about affirmative action in the section that asked whether you considered yourself to be a member of group that had historically been underrepresented in higher education. (I wrote that in view of the university’s reputation for enrolling students who were tall, blond, tanned, and healthy-looking, they might want to give special consideration to me, as I was “short, pale, brown-haired, and rather sickly in appearance.” I had forgotten all about it until I read that section of my application a few years ago, quoted in a book by the dean of admissions, in a chapter on “ethical dilemmas”.)</p>

<p>Years, later, when I was in law school, I somewhat cynically decided to write a paper arguing in favor of affirmative action, knowing it would match the professor’s own views. To my surprise, I found that the exercise actually changed my views on the subject. </p>

<p>One side effect of the hysteria that causes students to clamor to attend the highest ranked school that will admit them, and the attendant hysteria that causes schools to strive to admit the applicants who have the highest scores on standardized tests, is that the schools at the top of this neurotic pyramid would have very few black or Latino students if they didn’t take that heritage into consideration. Would that really be such a good thing for any of their students? </p>

<p>I went to a high school that was nearly all white. My life has been enriched immeasurably by the fact that my universities were more racially diverse. (That’s not an exageration, in view of my marriage for a former classmate. My children may owe their very existence to affirmative action.)</p>

<p>And while it may be hard to appreciate this now, in the fullness of time, you’re likely to come to realize that your long-term happiness and success depend very little on the precise location of the school you attend in the academic pecking order.</p>

<p>bobert, i think your position is moderate because when a person argues against AA, he usually proposes “merit” as the only consideration. by suggesting using socioeconomic status in college admissions, you have correctly realized that there is inequality in today’s society. i’m assuming you believe AA is attempting to make a more level playing field in college admissions, but that AA is not serving it’s original purpose (to help those in need), and that perhaps another system (using socioeconomics) should be implemented instead.</p>

<p>i did not mean to offend you by suggesting that you are not firm in your beliefs - you are firm, but firm in a rather centrist (and imo, respectable) way.</p>

<p>i think what i’m trying to say is…</p>

<p>people need to realize that there is NO equal playing field, whether we use race or socioeconomics or other factors. some people are always going to benefit, while others won’t. where can we find a balance?</p>

<p>everyone:
thanks for replying. thanks for your concern. i am NOT writing an app essay. this is something i believe in, and i’d like to maybe publish it in my school/town newspaper.</p>

<p>ariesathena:
if name reading is the only inequality in society, then there isn’t much of a problem after all. for one, can you tell my origin by my name? on a more serious note, i think those that are really fat/ugly suffer way more social isolation because the black/hispanic/female can have a heritage/gender pride. one can say “i’m black and i love it” but not “i’m super ugly and i love it”
and i really disagree your “every teenager is good-looking theory”. believe me, there are a LOT of unattractive teenagers. the odd thing is, being merely decent looking still often hurts one’s (especially female teen) self-esteem.
with the basketball example, i have to say it is only one of very few instances when that might be true. however, personally i don’t see the harm in having a team of good-looking players versus “fierce” ones.</p>

<p>greybeard:
i agree that cultural diversity is important to have in campus. however, i think depriving many “more qualified” white/asian kids from the top colleges is unfair. the black/hispanics had disadvantages in life and they cannot help it. the white/asian cannot help about their race either, so why punish their fate?</p>

<p>eltarego:
haha, thank you. and yes, the world is not perfect.</p>

<p>Um… if you think that people use EXAMPLES to show the LIMITS of something, then… yeah… please re-think that. I did not use the example of the resume study to show the limits of discrimination against women (I would be shocked if the same did not apply to minorities); I used it to show that there is a very pervasive discrimination that applies quite readily to people in our society. You scoff at that now; however, you’ll one day send dozens of resumes to employers and understand how important it is that it not trigger any subconscious discrimination. </p>

<p>As a female athlete, furthermore, I can tell you that a lot of people look at a tall blonde and don’t take her seriously. I did track; the times that I ran are very quantitative - easy to compare to other runner’s. I had one of the highest GPAs on the team, was one of the best runners, but had a coach who really acted like he couldn’t see beyond the way I look and my effervescent personality. </p>

<p>I’m just saying that discrimination in the form of looks runs many ways. A pretty person (of either gender) may not be taken as seriously in the classroom or the workplace. I recall being at my engineering firm when we were talking about the typical engineering style. One of my coworkers is the epitome of a metrosexual, so we teased him about looking more like a male model than a nerd. Then someone said, “Well, if there was ever a female engineer, Aries is one; but look at the way she dresses.” No, I don’t dress like Elle Woods in Legally Blonde, and I was lucky to have worked in a company where that wasn’t an issue - but I’m just saying that those things can cut so many different ways. </p>

<p>I know what you mean about not all teenagers being pretty… to each other. As an adult, however, I can look at high school students (many of whom are probably not considered “good looking” by their peers) and see that they really are very pretty. </p>

<p>What about socially awkward people? Should they be given a boost for being ostracised by their peers? Or, should we realise that many of them might be considered more “serious” than their bubbly counterparts? (Yes, “bubbly” is a term I’ve heard to describe myself. Engineering degree + law student + former nanotechnologist, and people see “bubbly.” Ugh.)</p>

<p>Finally - academic bias results mostly from teacher to student, not student to student. Therefore, examine this all from the perspective of an adult. An adult may not know how much money someone’s parents earn (and may look down on the kids who drive nicer cars than they do!), but will know the colour of their skin, their gender, and their social skills.</p>

<p>let’s stay on topic. </p>

<p>if you are not taken seriously because you are blond, does that mean you should be given a head start in races because of your hair color?</p>

<p>it would also be ridiculous if athletics started to use AA. ho, look, no native indians on our world cup soccer team. why don’t we find one, and choose him over a more qualified white player?</p>

<p>No… no head start, because the race itself is quantifiable. Just saying that some coaches are definitely a bit ridiculous. </p>

<p>The point, dahlin, is that athletics are an important part of the college application. If we are going to analyse recommendations, grades, and SATs for bias, then ECs should likewise be so examined. </p>

<p>You asked why we should not give an advantage in admissions to ugly/fat people. I responded by trying to demonstrate that it would be ridiculous. You don’t seem to like the fact that it would be ridiculous. Don’t ask questions if you don’t want to hear the answer.</p>

<p>no no, i appreciate your imput very much. don’t get me wrong there. regarding the ugly/fat scenario, it’s just a contradicting example. i obviously think it would be ridiculous to give them an advantage, just like i think AA is bad</p>