You can lead a horse to water....

Parent Cafe
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<p>Two isolated thoughts:
(1) on the musical instrument - at about age 13, our S lost the zest for his instrument. We weren’t certain whether to require him to continue (lots of talent there). We spoke to his (excellent and wise) teacher. He told us to let him drop it - he should only be doing it for love. So we did and he did. Within about a year, he took it up again, on his own, with renewed enthusiasm; got even more involved with it and has never let go.</p>

<p>(2) the friend factor - this to me is the biggest red flag in the OP. And I do not have the answers, as I did not ever have this problem with my own S. But perhaps others do. I think when her social milieu is a set of kids who do not have the kind of goals you’d like to see, when it is such that doing well in school is to be seen as a nerd and undesirable… this is a very tough thing to overcome. One poster suggested a different school for her and that occurs to me, as well. She might, of course, find a similar crowd. But some schools are blessed (ours was - small public hs) with an atmosphere which does not dichotomize the good students from the popular students. So a different school atmosphere is one idea. Perhaps others here can suggest additional.</p>

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<p>My first thought was wrong school. There exist schools where it is cool to be smart and high achievement is highly valued. It worked for me (30+ years ago) and it is working for both my sons – different schools --now.</p>

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<p>Having the “right” kind of friends can help an underachiever blossom. I view it as a positive spin on peer pressure. It can raise the bar for a kid or a group of kids.</p>

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<p>Thanks for all the comments so far. First, I want to believe I’m a pretty reasonable parent who has expectations based on what I think my children are capable of. I have a special needs child as well, so I don’t think I’m without some understanding of that issue.</p>

<p>To clarify a bit more, perhaps the biggest bugaboo is a general immaturity in decision-making characterized by wanting the benefits without the responsibilities. We always discuss the practical implications of commitments to academic courses or EC’s beforehand. There should be no surprises; she’s a smart kid. Yet, somehow she never thinks it’s going to be like what it is. So, then I suggest a change, but she’s reluctant to change. Example: D: I don’t have enough time to spend with my friends. M: Why do you say that? D: Well, I have practice every day after school, then I have to do homework, and there are meets on most weekends. M: Don’t you see your friends at practice? And you go out every weekend at least one night, sometimes two, don’t you? D: That’s not enough. M: If that doesn’t feel like enough to you, then maybe you shouldn’t do sports next season. Then you could finish your homework right after school and have more time to talk and hang out later in the evening. Or else you could do a club instead and see other friends at those meetings. D: I don’t want to quit sports. M: Well, what about quitting band/dropping an honors class, or two or three/fill in the blank with every possibility I can think of to alter her schedule. D: No to each suggestion. Impasse, which she handles poorly by just not doing what has to be done. </p>

<p>Also, she insisted on taking all honors classes this year (I tried to talk her out of one or two), but then is annoyed/upset at all the work that goes along with them. So, we just went through a similar discussion to the above regarding next year’s schedule. I suggested she cut back on the honors classes so she wouldn’t feel like she has no time for friends like she felt this year. “No” plus tears and accusations (“So you don’t you think I’m smart enough” etc.)</p>

<p>I think she’s still in the stage of magical thinking. Somehow she will have the happiness and status of being an athlete, taking honors classes, being in the band, but for her there will be no pain or inconvenience at all. Then when there is, oh my what a mess. She’s miserable at having to do what’s necessary, and all that misery spills over to the rest of the family. And it is always our fault.</p>

<p>I don’t care so much about what she does, as much as I care that she does what she chooses to do with the excellence of which she is capable and that she does it without the complaining, because whether she acknowledges it or not, it WAS her choice.</p>

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<p>The GFG: I think you are wise to get on top of this situation with your D. You can’t control her internal motivation and drive, but you can control certain external privileges as other posters have mentioned.</p>

<p>I have seen this situation play out with my stepsons and my nephew: all bright and not motivated, all handed lots of privileges without earning them, and now only one of that group is graduating from college. </p>

<p>My dad’s favorite saying was the “you can lead a horse to water…” one.</p>

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<p>The GFG that makes a lot more sense. I wasn’t completely getting what you meant before. That magical thinking is very typical at this age. Annoying as all get out, though. There are only so many hours in a day and she’s going to have to learn to prioritize. We went through this with my oldest last year. We told her that her number one priority was school and after that she could decide how to arrange her plans and if she didn’t do it in a reasonable manner, I would. We had lots of fights about this, but it ultimately worked out because too much became too much AND she grew up. Good luck!</p>

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<p>Oh my goodness. Your last sentence about magical thinking is my D too. When she was a senior in high school, she had honors classes, a job, and was in all three school plays. She is now a college senior and still overloading her plate big time. My H says she burns the candle at both ends and in the middle too.</p>

<p>I read something once that has helped me: “Her mistakes are hers to make.”</p>

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<p>So, a typical situation would be this: On the night before a big midterm she decides she’s unhappy about taking that particular class. She’s not smart enough for it, hates the subject matter, the teacher’s not very good, etc. D decides to “take a break” form studying. Wastes too much time, does poorly on the test, and then, because she still stayed up way too late not studying, doesn’t perform well at her track meet the next day either.</p>

<p>zoosermom, if you could give a few details about how it worked out, I’d be grateful.</p>

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<p>I may as well throw #1 S into the mix. Never in the “popular” crowd in HS, but with many good friends, he reinvented himself (to a point) in college and became a much more “social” person, whatever that is.</p>

<p>Drives me crazy - he is a good person, just can’t bring himself to focus on school and grades. I didn’t focus in college either, but I managed to bring in decent grades despite the rest of my scattered existence at that time. It’s hard for me to even attempt to point out the errors (too strong a word, really) he is making without being hypocritical.</p>

<p>W and I hope something will light a spark in him…</p>

<p>In other words, TheGFG, as you can see from so many replies, you are not alone.</p>

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<p>my thoughts - just agree with the upset, rather than offer any suggestions. Yes, you must feel overwhelmed sometimes. yes, it must feel frustrating to have all this homework. Yes, it’s tough to be so good at so many things.<br>
Pointing out that she can pick a choice that makes her unhappy just increases the upset. Knowing you understand is often more helpful that trying to fix things. She’ll fix them on her own as needed. Life makes them pick eventually. Part of quitting would be giving up what she does well, so then they wonder who they’ll be if not first chair, athlete, or whatever they do. One day she’ll know that if she is not a musician, in a sport, etc she will be…herself.
Also, imho-but based on experience and three kids-the lower the track, the less interested in school, homework and achievement. The pressure to do the homework will, in some ways, come from the other kids in class with her.
I have had three musicians. One did music constantly, but not much practicing, til he left for college and just stopped. The last one hated practicing (hand control issues made it worse) yet couldn’t bring herself to quit lessons since who she was in school was wrapped up in her chair and her orchestra stuff. She finally quit lessons at 17, when she was ok with being good enough for h.s. and not worrying about it otherwise.
third one has become a musician. She stopped all sports but karate by 10th grade. She was 17 before she decided to follow music professionally. It is a tough choice to make and though I am as guilty as anyone, shouldn’t be mixed up with pleasing either parents or teachers.</p>

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<p>TheGFG, I enjoyed reading the “transcript” of your conversations with your daughter. Your love for her really comes through.</p>

<p>One thing struck me, though - your side of the discussion is frequently problem-solving. I wonder if these conversations are simply your d’s way of venting, and all she wants is for you to listen, not offer advice. (I understand that this is a common isse between men and women - are you by any chance her father?) Maybe if you back off a bit on the advice, she’ll try to problem-solve herself? By showing her that you believe she can solve her problems herself?</p>

<p>(Oops, cross-posted with OldinJersey.)</p>

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<p>Here’s what worked in our family with two young teens (I feel your pain!) One kid decided they were tired of playing their instrument (also first chair, regionals) Fine- but then we stopped paying for private lessons. A year later they were begging forthe lessons to resume. THe other kid had a huge problem with all of the social temptations of the internet- IM, Facebbok, MySpace. Although we monitored the content of the social networking sites, we finally came to the conclusion that for this kid, they were truly addictive. Therefore, in our house, they are turned off from 7:30-9:30 pm on weeknights, and 11:30pm to 6:00 am every night. It was simple- we pay for the computers and the internet service, we get to decide how they are used. It solved a lot of problems in our house. Hang in there!</p>

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<p>It is also possible your D is just choosing to communicate thru complaint. It’s fairly common. Everything is negative. They don’t want solutions, just to vent. </p>

<p>You could also to the pick 5 EC’s plan. That is pick five things you want to do besides school, do those five well and don’t overextend yourself because “I” don’t want to hear you complain about how you have no time. </p>

<p>good luck and this causes flashbacks… I’m glad my D is now in college.</p>

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<p>I think a large part of the resolution came from her gaining some maturity and, frankly, being tired a lot of the time. But also, my husband and I sat down and decided what we felt was appropriate. In the instance of daughter number 1 (these aren’t the same guidelines as for daughter number 2), we told her that to start the game, she had to maintain a 90 average. The second she slipped below that, she forefeited and lost all privileges. Assuming a 90 average, we prioritized for her based on what we knew was important (she has a tough time saying no, which is why time management and prioritization came late for her), first being the track team, next being her favorite extracurricular, and then hanging out. There were a couple of things that we all agreed to eliminate. That changed in senior year when she decided to get a job so as to consider a more expensive college. We told her that something had to go and it ended up being the track team. We also told her that lights off at 11, phone calls between 9-10 only and only after homework and no more than 1 hour of computer time and only if cleared with a parent first. My husband and I work hard, have two other kids and can’t be anyone’s personal taxi service, so they all have to scale back more than they’d like, but too bad. We spent a lot of time repeating to her that these are the rules of the house and they are firm unless of extenuating circumstances. I think the key is to not ban anything completely because I do think that downtime and girl talk are very important. I think you should sit down with your daughter, tell her what your exact expectations are and prioritize together. It’s certainly a good thing if her friends are motivated, but I don’t necessarily think that all motivation is created equal, and people who may be stupid little dreamers can add color and perspective to friendship, as well. Barring a real bad influence, I’d focus on my own kid and making things right with her, independent of her friends. When I first became a parent, I was watching a friend’s kid being a brat (the kid is Satan) and was worried that this was the inevitable outcome of a loved, wanted child. An older and much wiser woman told me that I was watching a snapshot in time and what I should take away from it was that a kid will push you only on the issues that aren’t written in stone for you. This particular kid was having a hissy about being in a car seat, sensed that mom didn’t think this was a big deal (18 years ago, remember) and acted accordingly. Now the same mom was absolutely fanatical about the kid never touching processed, sugared foods and the kid never even asked. My point here is that you have to figure out what you can live with and what you can’t, tell your daughter exactly that, fight only those battles and then grit your teeth while she feels her way and makes her own mistakes, and never forget that you will cry when she leaves for college.</p>

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<p>sabooks,
Is there a specific program you used to schedule/limit social networking sites?</p>

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<p>We’ve tried to permanently delete the IMing capabilities from our computer (Windows XP, MSN DSL internet), but have been told it cannot be done without completing reformatting.</p>

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<p>OldinJersey and Chedva hit on something that really struck me in the parent-D dialogue you recount. Not saying I’ve mastered this, but two books that really, really can help (I’m sure there are others) in finding ways to talk to our Ss and Ds that works:
Parent Effectiveness Training by Dr. Thomas Gordon.
How to Talk so Kids will Listen and Listen so Kids will talk by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish.</p>

<p>Might be worth a look in your spare :wink: time.</p>

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<p>Be cautious with this approach.</p>

<p>Some kids may be worried and cranky precisely because they don’t have any particular goals and don’t particularly “love” to do anything.</p>

<p>In such cases, the standards approach may work better - it’s good to exercise, be involved, put forth your best effort - whether or not you’ve found your goals and passions in life.</p>

<p>I’d like to note also that, for my girls, 13 and 14 have been very moody ages.</p>

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<p>fendrock: YES! That’s what I’ve concluded about my daughter. She IS worried because she doesn’t have a clear idea of what she wants for her future or even what she “loves” right now. I tried to get her to visualize the possibilities of what she could do in various arenas of talent and/or (mild) interest, but the strong passion isn’t really there. For example, despite being an excellent athlete, she says that she really doesn’t like the running itself as much as she likes being good at it. So talk of goals such as possibly running in college fall flat; she’s not sure she likes it that much. Same with everything else. I’ve commented that she seems to have a knack for learning foreign language. Would she maybe like to add another language to her schedule for next year? No, I don’t like it that much. What do you think you like? I don’t know.</p>

<p>Without a guiding passion, goal-setting is difficult. Getting back to my original question, I wonder whether that lack of guiding passion and hence goal-setting is what separates a truly gifted and talented person from an ordinary one (or “talented slacker” to use CC jargon). And if she’s ordinary in that sense, then perhaps I need to downgrade my sense of her potential and adjust expectations. </p>

<p>Thanks for the reading suggestions.</p>

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<p>I went in a different way than “what do you love” since for her that did stress her, and DD1 is a burningly intense person who was in endless conflict between the wonders of physics and the glories of music.
I asked, what lowers your stress the most? Running, lifting, reading, dancing, music? Can you find ways to enjoy that more?<br>
Again, helping her see it is normal to have these love/hate feelings from the activity and the stress of the activity. Music soothes, first chair feels great, practice stinks. Track meets are high pressure, practice is rough, winning is a thrill, running gets your endorphins going and soothes, brings happy feelings.
Oh 14 year old girls. Every time she’s mad, yells, screams, say “I know you’re upset. I love you, we will find a way to fix it” til she calms down. That’s somewhere around age 16 or 17. (g)</p>