<p>* took a lot of pressure of of him, and for that it’s a good thing.
*
and of course thats a very good thing-</p>
<p>I have the perspective of being all too familiar with some of the stereotypes.
Having worked in “hair” for several years- before I got married, I knew the gay hairdresser stereotype quite well.
Although I realize that many of us as we get older “settle down a little”.</p>
<p>But not only as a former hairdresser but * also* a mother of a lesbian, I live in fear, that now that my daughter no longer has me doing her hair, she will get one of those * really bad* haircuts to identify herself.
:rolleyes:</p>
She can get a nice looking short cut to identify herself! I had a very short but very cute hairstyle for a while, and I always got a lot of compliments on it from everyone. My hair is all grown out now, but every once in a while an old friend (or a new one who has seen a picture of me “back then”) will tell me to cut it again. It was pretty obvious without being one of those unisex looks. Worked like a charm, really. ;)</p>
<p>…Which connects to the point about stereotypes. A lot of the stereotypes are true because gay people (often the newer out or the insecure or the isolated) act in a stereotypical manner in order to affirm their identity, attract the same sex, make a statement, etc. Zach’s case made me uncomfortable because, as other people have been saying, other people helped encourage him to be stereotypical, and that stereotype was in a way praised by his parents, other adults, and the author of this article. </p>
<p>I think it was EK4 who said she didn’t get much out of this article. To me, it was a little too warm and fuzzy while neglecting to even allude to the significant problems that Zach will face in the future and the problems that his GLBT peers experience today. It mentions the problems he faced before be came out, but it also presents them as magically disappearing afterwards. I also didn’t get much out of it because it was a little too perfect to be true. The reality isn’t all love and rainbows as reading this article would suggest.</p>
<p>“For a boy seeking the understanding and respect of his straight peers, this would seem to be something that might work against that goal.”</p>
<p>Well, if he just hid the fact that he was gay altogether, I bet that would make it even easier for his straight peers to respect him. Why should he be obligated to make himself more palatable to small-minded people? If I were his mom, I’d be working hard to make sure he didn’t even try.</p>
<p>I’m not saying anything for or against the Miss Congeniality routine…but boy, I sure am against teens buttoning it up in any way to make fellow high schoolers happy. High school sucks. If kids are being teased because of who they are – whether that’s Goth, black, flamer, nerd, whatever – the lesson they need to learn is how to stop giving a rat’s butt about what the Heathers think one way or the other. (In a small conservative town, where a kid’s life might be in danger if he came out, you need to put safety first, but that’s not at issue in this story.)</p>
<p>“I don’t think it is a typical part of a gay teen boy’s life that he is paraded around”</p>
<p>Nope, what’s typical is that they are depressed, have a lot of suicidal thoughts, believe that they are the only gay person in the world/town/school, try desperately to be straight, tell few people what they are thinking, and get negative (if not violent) responses from those they do tell. In other words, most loving parents would want their child’s experience to be as atypical as possible.</p>
<p>As an aside, some guys are flamers almost from birth. I know a flamboyant man whose first-grade teacher asked the class (in around 1985) what they wanted to be when they grew up. He wanted to be Madonna. He never changed.</p>
With all due respect, Hanna, I think that you most likely understood exactly what I was trying to say and what you portrayed didn’t represent it in the least. There is a vast difference between hiding who you are and flaunting the most feared and denigrated stereotypical behavior. It is, of course, much more challenging to be moderate in your behavior and “fit in” than it is to go to an extreme and be totally outrageous. Moderation is difficult for many.</p>
<p>As one of the only Jews (the rest are my children <em>giggle</em>) in a very small Kansas town, I conduct myself and have encouraged my family to conduct itself in certain ways in order to encourage the acceptance and tolerance of by some people who carry some deep rooted prejudices and stereotypes. Yes, even for those who are in the religious minority (or racial or whatever), there are burdens to bear. We do not hide who we are…far, far from it, but neither are we “in your face,” and we are, by necessity, extra-sensitive to some things.</p>
<p>
Then, as usual, I am <em>not</em> in the category of “most.” I would support my child and encourage him in a completely different way. And I would tell him that if he conducted himself in an upstanding way with itegrity and respect for both himself (!) and others, he would, over the long run, receive this in return. </p>
<p>Hanna, I’m curious…how do you feel qualified to determine what “most loving parents” would want for their gay child’s “experience”? Cannot parents who are all extremely loving differ in what they think is best/most positive for their child? I mean we see this all the time on CC…EXCEEDINGLY loving parents who hold very different views on what the quintessential college experience should embody. I would think that this would also be true for any other subject as well. That seems like a rather loaded statement and unnecessarily accusatory toward those whose views differ from your own.</p>
<p>Again, NO WHERE in my post did I remotely suggest that this young man hide his true identity. Nor would I ever. </p>
<p>Well, I don’t see the big difference you see between toning it down and shutting it up altogether. I think that when your safety is not an issue, and you aren’t breaking any school rules (or laws), you should express your identity exactly as you see fit (which may mean expressing it very little). Adults can make a choice to conform to the social mores of a workplace/profession or find another line of work. But kids don’t have a choice about where or whether to go to high school.</p>
<p>“As one of the only Jews (the rest are my children <em>giggle</em>) in a very small Kansas town, I conduct myself and have encouraged my family to conduct itself in certain ways in order to encourage the acceptance and tolerance of by some people who carry some deep rooted prejudices and stereotypes.”</p>
<p>OK, but #1, that approach reflects a philosophy that not everyone shares, and #2, I’m assuming that you aren’t Hasidic or a member of some other stream where “in-your-face” markers of faith like payess and tzitzit are central to your identity. If you were, would you give them up? IMHO, some gay people are like Reform Jews (i.e. when they do what feels right to them, people may not notice they are Jewish unless they ask) and others are like Hasidim (i.e. being who they are means wearing clothes that make their identity clear). I don’t think that flamboyant gay kids should have to give up their rainbow shirts and eyeliner for the Heathers’ benefit any more than Hasidic kids should cut off their beards to make anti-Semites feel more comfortable.</p>
My reaction was based on the above…simply that this <strong><em>14-year-old’s</em></strong> behavior was facilitated, encouraged, and directed by adults who hadn’t BOTHERED to find out what gay “style” he wanted to adopt yet. They were doing it for THEIR OWN reasons and not necessarily with this kid’s best interests in mind. In other words, he was a pawn and exploited, no differently than the overly sexualized little girls whose moms thrive on pageantry. </p>
<p>
No, Hanna, I would not. And it doesn’t matter to me if anyone else shares my philosophy. </p>
<p>
Provided all clothing is within the standards of school policy (like every other kid’s has to be), I am in agreement with you. That said, I would encourage my children to not make their sexual orientation the defining hallmark for who they are as a human being (whether they be gay or straight). That’s just me. </p>
<p>Trust me, Hanna, with three daughters involved in musical theatre, I know more gay teens than most parents. The vast majority of them would not be “detectable” from any outside clues, but they are MOST comfortable in their sexuality and enthusiastically accepted by the vast majority of their peers. Many of them have talked openly with my daughters about their romantic lives the way my older kids feel free to discuss theirs with their friends. The couple of flamboyant kids are accepted as well, but the vast majority, at least here, have not chosen to express themselves this way.</p>
<p>We don’t really know how much of the “Miss Congeniality” was put upon by others. This did not happen the first night, but MONTHS after the kid began attending bingo night. We don’t know if after that time he felt perfectly at home, had good friends, yearned to be flamboyant and a star–or if he was encouraged into something that just wasn’t him. </p>
<p>This wouldn’t have been the article I’d like to see as most representative of how a young gay man finds his identity. But I lilked it anyway, and am trying not to read a whole lot into such slight details.</p>
<p>Wow, you all are totally over analyzing this article. (I guess that’s one reason I love CC!) The kid is totally flamboyant in real life. (Think: purple feather boas!) I don’t think that he was meant to represent all young gay teenage boys in America.</p>
<p>“It may be that some people are sure of their sexual orientation at 14, but I’m pretty sure there are many who really aren’t. I’d be concerned about a teenager “accepting” that they’re gay just because they fit the stereotype, and going forward with their life assuming that they are. I wouldn’t be all that surprised if this kid suddenly “realized” that he’s straight in ten years. (The reverse scenario happens often enough.)”</p>
<p>I had the same thought kluge. I think in the case of a 13 year old, if I were the parent, I would want to get professional insight. 13 is a very confusing time.</p>
<p>We are definitely overanalyzing! I just really wonder if “professional help” is going to let this kid know if he’s gay or not. Might be cheaper for him to figure out who gives him a ha*d-on. (That’s what the kid next door said; at 11 he was getting physically aroused by male movie stars!)</p>
<p>I think that research shows that hetero/homo lies on a continuum. So it may be possible that this kid may move more hetero in the future. I;m just glad that his family and friends are letting him be who he is right now.</p>
<p>Are his family and friends letting him be who he is or defining him. 13/14 year olds aren’t the most mature or confident, or emotionally balanced people in the world. They tend to extremes. I admit I haven’t actually read the article and probably I should. Still my gut feeling is I would want this kid to work through these issues with a child psychiatrist.</p>
The research I’ve seen recently has said that men do not show any signs of bisexuality in a physical sense (I’m not speaking of some emotional attraction or anything). I leave it alone as well as I can and let people label themselves however they would like. The problem with labels is that each person defines them a little differently, and very few people fit exactly into the little box.</p>
I think that this is going too far. I agree with Kluge that thirteen is a confusing time developmentally and any label may change, but I see no reason to get professional help for a thirteen year old who says he’s gay. If a thirteen year old can be confident in his heterosexuality and have a straight “relationship,” I don’t see why the opposite should mean professional help is necessary. I agree that younger teens should generally be patient when it comes to sexuality, but those who decide to label themselves at this age or who are sure of their sexual orientation do not suddenly need counseling to work out whether they are actually gay or just confused. That’s the kid’s own responsibility (and faraway’s method tends to be the favored way to do it). Note that I am not speaking about counseling after coming out for any other purposes which may or may not be legitimate but only for the purpose HL alludes to for determining whether or not the person is somehow feeling pressured into being gay. In the case of a young person coming out to his or her parents, I think it would be appropriate to discuss briefly that it’s fine whether attraction to the same sex remains, changes, or disappears in time. That would have to be handled carefully, and it should probably be avoided for older teens.</p>
This is not surprising to me, sabooks, given this:</p>
<p>
This kid was taught at a rather young and impressionable age that this type of “flamboyant” behavior would earn him attention and kudos. People tend to continue to do what they are positively reinforced for doing. I just wonder if he would have been this flamboyant were not for the influences of the adults around him at this crucial time. Perhaps so, perhaps not.</p>
<p>Does anyone else think it’s a little strange that his therapist was taking him to social events? I think suggesting a social event is fine, but if what this article says is true and the therapist took him, then I think that’s crossing the therapist – friend/mentor line. If that was my job, and I decided to act as a perfectly legitimate mentor (which is what I will assume it was), then I would refer him to a different counselor. It just strikes me as off in this case.</p>
Yes. Very much so. I’ve had a life coach for six years now, and she’s never accompanied me anywhere.</p>
<p>In addition, I find it odd that the therapist would encourage him to socialize with gay men who are (presumably) so much older than he was. Last time I checked, bingo was not a overwhelmingly teen-attented activity.</p>
<p>“If a thirteen year old can be confident in his heterosexuality and have a straight “relationship,” I don’t see why the opposite should mean professional help is necessary.”</p>
<p>Well we just had a twice married governor of NJ with a couple of kids figure out he was homosexual. I think that blows the “men do not show any signs of bisexuality in a physical sense” theory. I think human sexuality does lie on a continuum and I don’t think many 13 year olds realize that or fully grasp their own powerful and sometimes conflicting human and sexual drives.</p>
<p>I have met many mature adults who cannot be pigeonholed as either homosexual or heterosexual. They were all kids once too. The child in question might well be as gay as Oscar Wilde, but I don’t think seeing a professional psycholgist could hurt him and may very well help lim. Modern Psychiatry does not consider homosexuality to be a pathology so you don’t have to worry about a professional trying to turn him.</p>
<p>And yes I think it was a little strange that the therapist was taking a 13 yer old to social events.</p>
Apparently the parents sought counseling for their son, though the article doesn’t mention the title of the therapist. A therapist can be an LCSW or someone with a PhD. People with many different qualifications and levels of experience can term themselves “therapists.” Also, therapists can and sometimes do push their own agendas. To me, accompanying this teen to a gay bingo group may have been pushing an agenda, especially given the age differences between the “regulars” there and Zach, who was 14 at the time.</p>
I never said that it would hurt him, and it could help him. I just do not think that it’s necessary for the reasons you state. I don’t understand why you think gay teens should see psychologists any more than straight teens. If all of their sexualities lie on a continuum–those who label themselves gay and those who label themselves straight, aren’t they all in need of professional help in determining where on that continuum they fall (or for whatever other reason you think it’s needed)? I also don’t understand what you think a psychologist would do besides tell the young kid to be patient and not rush into anything, which as I already mentioned a parent should be able to sensitively convey to a younger teen.</p>
<p>And I wasn’t concerned about a professional psychologist trying to turn a gay kid straight. You kind of have to look for those people, usually, and if you happen to stumble upon one it should be pretty obvious to the parents what is going on at some point, in which case the parent (who is apparently taking her kid to a psychologist to figure out his sexual orientation?) can find a new psychologist. On that note, though, as Berurah mentions, therapists have their own opinions and agendas that they may consciously or unconsciously push upon the teen. I wouldn’t want my child’s concept of his or her sexual orientation being possibly influenced by someone held in such esteem (same goes for parents, teachers, coaches, etc.), whether accidently or on purpose and without any consent on my end.</p>
I would support my child and encourage him in a completely different way. And I would tell him that if he conducted himself in an upstanding way with itegrity and respect for both himself (!) and others, he would, over the long run, receive this in return. </p>
</p>