Young teen comes out--sweet story

Parent Cafe
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<p>As an aside about therapists and agendas…</p>

<p>There really <em>are</em> therapists who choose to use their practices to inflict their views on others rather than to LISTEN to the client and try to understand where s/he is coming from. For example, many years ago, I had a therapist (whom I had consulted about some issues with my birth family) inform me that my desire to have a third child was “dysfunctional” since I already had “one of each” and was not trying for a different gender. Obviously this person’s thinking reflected an entirely different value system than my own.</p>

<p>When young TEENS are exposed to therapists, it is very important to make sure that there is a good fit in terms of basic values and beliefs and that the therapist is working to foster the kid’s self awareness, not advance his/her own beliefs/value system.</p>

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<p>I didn’t read the article posted for fear of finding the above as well as some of the behaviors of Zach’s parents discussed here (both of which press my buttons).</p>

<p>Throughout, I’ve found berurah’s posts to be very perceptive.</p>

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<p>While I certainly do not disagree with your larger point of characterizing sexuality along a spectrum, rather than a mere binary choice of gay/straight, I don’t buy for a second that Governor McGreevey (or Ted Haggard, on the for that matter) miraculously just “found out” one day he was homosexual. I suspect that wasn’t your conveyed intent either, more just an unfortunate word choice. But as someone with a bisexual parent who did not “come out” (if one could call it that) until later in life, I guess I am overly sensitive to the fallacy that there is some sort of instant transformation that occurs. Clearly McGreevey and Haggard were aware of their own attraction to men on some level well before their big “scandals” (note quotes).</p>

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<p>“I don’t understand why you think gay teens should see psychologists any more than straight teens. If all of their sexualities lie on a continuum–those who label themselves gay and those who label themselves straight, aren’t they all in need of professional help in determining where on that continuum they fall (or for whatever other reason you think it’s needed)?”</p>

<p>Exactly. If this young man, at age 14, was the class ladies’ man, had an assertive macho persona, and acted like the ultimate stereotypical straight guy (obsessed with football, action movies, farts, and Penthouse), I don’t think anyone would raise an eyebrow, much less suggest therapy. Would we be worried that he’s only into football and kung fu because he decided too early that he’s heterosexual and he’s trying to conform to the culture? I’d bet $1000 that there are ten guys like that in Zach’s class, and no one doubts their assessment of themselves.</p>

<p>“Clearly McGreevey and Haggard were aware of their own attraction to men on some level well before their big “scandals” (note quotes).”</p>

<p>They have both said publicly that this was a life-long struggle for them. So there’s no question that they didn’t “find out” in the last five years or so. What they found out in the last five years is that the denial wasn’t working.</p>

<p>I knew plenty of “lesbians” at Bryn Mawr who are now married to men. But none of them were out butches at 13. College experimentation exists, sure, and a lot of people question for a long time. But there are others who know very early on (I fell hard for Han Solo at age 5 and never looked back). The Bryn Mawr lesbians who were the stereotyped equivalent of Zach – the ones who were exclusively having crushes on girls in fifth grade and never had a speck of interest in wearing a dress – all still date women today.</p>

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<p>“I don’t understand why you think gay teens should see psychologists any more than straight teens.”</p>

<p>Not having any positive role models as to how to parent a gay child, and since we don’t believe homosexuality is wrong or a problem, we tried our best to raise our children so they don’t see it as problem either. This became more urgent when we realized we had at least one gay child. H and I have tried to treat our children the same, regardless of orientation. It isn’t always possible because society just doesn’t allow it, but if we didn’t suggest a straight child see a therapist to explore his/her sexuality we sure wouldn’t suggest it for a gay child coming out. In our family the coming out was in high school but it probably would have been easier on the child if we had facilitated this earlier. He has said as much. His orientation was no surprise to us since we are reasonably observant parents and he was rather obvious in his interests. We discussed it and decided since we weren’t going to ask our other children whether they were straight, we wouldn’t ask him if he was gay. I am not sure that was the right decision and it will be interesting to me to see if our children handle it any differently with their own offspring.</p>

<p>I found interesting the discussion about encouraging gay students to act “normal” to fit in. (Or at least that was how I interpreted it, I tend to be over sensitive.) How far does one take this? In terms of middle school/high school dress, I censored anything I thought looked “slutty” whether for boys or girls but beyond that was always a question for me. Is it really in the self interest of a gay teen to advise him against his favorite pastels? I honestly don’t know but think it is best to let them dress how they please… hopefully after finding an environment safe enough to allow for self-expression. The safe environment is always the biggest issue for us.</p>

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<p>alh:</p>

<p>Hooray! What a nice post. And what nice parents you are!</p>

<p>I cringed as posters chewed on the therapist and parents–honestly, you’re da<strong>ed if you do or da</strong>ed if you don’t! </p>

<p>What’s been lost in the discussion is the article’s main point, I think. That is, with all the support Zach got when he came out at 13 as a 7th grader, he has been able to more quickly settle into being comfortable in his skin. He’s now 17 and a junior in high school, and being gay is not a big issue. The article states that he no longer attends some of the gay activities his parents and therapist once acquainted him with; he’s just busy being a student.</p>

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<p>“those who label themselves gay and those who label themselves straight, aren’t they all in need of professional help in determining where on that continuum they fall (or for whatever other reason you think it’s needed)? I also don’t understand what you think a psychologist would do besides tell the young kid to be patient and not rush into anything”</p>

<p>I think the governor of New Jersey could have used a little professional advice in sorting out his sexual identity issues early on before he created a muck of two families. </p>

<p>What a psychiatrist could tell a 13 year old that the 13 year old doesn’t know is exactly what kind of feelings, behaviors, and desires do fall in the normal adolescent range and what they may or may not indicate about the sexual orientation of that individual.</p>

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<p>So do you think that this should be something every thirteen year old gets in a part of regular healthcare, along with vaccinations and whatever else? The young teens who are sure of their sexual orientation at thirteen are probably less of a concern than the ones who think they’re straight, get married, and then somewhere along the line figure it out. In order to reach those people, this intervention would need to be universal.</p>

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<p>“Exactly. If this young man, at age 14, was the class ladies’ man, had an assertive macho persona, and acted like the ultimate stereotypical straight guy (obsessed with football, action movies, farts, and Penthouse)”</p>

<p>Homosexuality is normal in the sense that perhaps 5-10% of te population is homosexual and in and of itself it is not pathological. However it is still out on the skinny end of the Bell curve. A kid who has deermined at age 13 that he is a homosexual may be very self aware or he may be seeking attention and calling for help only to find adults who want to put a tiara on his head and have him prance around the room.</p>

<p>I would feel the same way about a 13 year old ladies man hanging out with a bunch of adults reading Hustler magazine. When you see kids engaged in behaviors that are not age appropriate it should fire off some warning bells.</p>

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<p>HL–</p>

<p>Read the article. This is a kid we should all celebrate! He seems happy and well-adjusted. And he was absolutely miserable for a long time. </p>

<p>I didn’t want this to get into a battle about homosexuality being perverse and don’t wish to take it there. </p>

<p>I say, just enjoy one happy family, since they’re so darned hard to come by sometimes!</p>

<p>P.S., equating gay bingo with a boy reading Hustler–ouch! (I don’t think that gay men=sexual perverts.</p>

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<p>I am equating grown men encouraging a boy to read Hustler with grown men encouraging a a boy to wear a tiara. I don’t think gay bingo or reading Hustler are perverted only inappropriate to do with a younf boy.</p>

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<p>farawayplaces, I agree with you totally. This is a nice article about a wonderful family with a great son. If only all families would react to the news of a gay child as this family has done, the world would be a better place. </p>

<p>The suggestion that a 13 year old boy who because he thinks he’s gay should automatically be seeing a psychologist is ludicrous, and I say this as a psychologist who has counselled hundreds of gay teens and young adults in my career. There is no more reason to refer a gay 13 year old to a psychologist for counselling than there is to refer a straight 13 year old. </p>

<p>Having grown up in a family where my parents had many gay friends, I and my siblings had many gay friends, and having raised four Ds, all of whom have gay friends, in addition to my professional career, I would say that the vast majority of those gay friends, probably 95%+ knew they were gay long before age 13. They may not have come out officially until a later age but in their own hearts and minds, they knew it.</p>

<p>As for McGreevey, I have two family members who live in NJ and who worked with and knew him for years. This was no surprise to anyone who knew him, believe me, including his wife. He didn’t suddenly discover he was gay five years ago. It just doesn’t work that way.</p>

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<p>“he may be seeking attention and calling for help only to find adults who want to put a tiara on his head and have him prance around the room.”</p>

<p>I’m just wondering – how many of your gay friends and colleagues have shared their adolescent coming-out experiences with you?</p>

<p>What’s the basis for your speculation about what goes on in the minds of kids who come out at age 13? Have you ever met any man, anywhere, who came out as gay at 13 for attention (or for any reason other than gayness)?</p>

<p>“in and of itself it is not pathological. However it is still out on the skinny end of the Bell curve.”</p>

<p>I take it, then, that since less than 5% of the U.S. adolescent population intends to become ballerinas, even though becoming a ballerina is not pathological, a 13-year-old girl who announces that she wants to devote her life to ballet should be taken to a psychiatrist, because she needs a medical doctor to explain that adolescents often have confusing feelings and her goals may change later in life. Furthermore, if she wants to attend dance clinics and backstage meetings with professional ballerinas who encourage her to prance around the room in a tiara, that is the equivalent of adults giving her pornography, as it is not age appropriate.</p>

<p>Right?</p>

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<p>“being gay is not a big issue” farawayplaces: maybe less of an issue, maybe no longer the biggest issue… but my hope is that for the next generation raising kids the idea of setting up a psychiatric evaluation just because a kid comes out will seem ludicrous… and that for the following generation the term “coming out” will seem antiquated and ridiculous because orientation is actually no longer an issue. Thank you for posting this article and for all your posts which I have enjoyed for several years now!</p>

<p>Covering: The Hidden Assault on Our Civil Rights, by Kenji Yoshino </p>

<p>By a young Harvard educated, Japanese American gay Yale law prof. If you haven’t already read it-- an extremely thought provoking examination of what it means for various minority groups to have to publicly conform to a mainstream norm.</p>

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<p>It is completely irresponsible for a therapist to take a 13 year old to an event for gay men. It also would be as irresponsible to take a 13 year old female to a social event for adult heterosexual men. Or any minor to an adult social event of this nature. Did anyone ever hear of pedophiles and protecting children? As a health professional, I would actually report this therapist to his licensing board and have him investigated for unethical conduct.</p>

<p>Whether one likes to admit it or not, there is a history of gay men preying on young men. Please read below from the William and Mary school newspaper (from 2003). There are certainly lots of pedophiles who are heterosexual, as well. But how about age appropriate social events for a 13 year old in general? And how about parental supervision?</p>

<p>"Students report solicitation in campus restroom
The Flat Hat would like to alert its readers to the graphic nature of a photograph associated with this story below </p>

<p>By Cara Passaro
Flat Hat Staff Writer</p>

<p>A male student reported being approached for sex in a bathroom of the Campus Center the morning of Oct. 11. The student said he was using a men’s restroom located on the first floor of the Campus Center, near the Candy Counter and the office of the Dean of Students, around 10 a.m. when he heard strange noises coming from the next stall.</p>

<p>According to the student, there was a half-dollar sized hole between the corner and middle stalls, which students had jokingly dubbed the “glory hole” and had been there since at least 2001. The student looked over to the next stall and saw a man masturbating.</p>

<p>The unidentified man tapped on the stall wall and reached underneath gesturing for the student to join him. The student left the bathroom and waited outside in an attempt to identify the occupant, but the man did not exit the restroom.</p>

<p>When the student reported the incident to Campus Police he was told that without a description of the man, there was little they could do.</p>

<p>According to the student, campus police said that such incidents - in which older men from the city invite students to engage in sexual activity in campus restrooms - recur about every two years. The student said Campus Police told him they would increase the patrolling of the restrooms.</p>

<p>According to Campus Police Chief Donald Challis, the department is still investigating the incident. He said that the police have been patrolling the area, but have yet to discern a pattern.</p>

<p>If another such incident is reported, an officer will be stationed in the area.</p>

<p>“More often than not someone from off campus is coming on,” Challis said.</p>

<p>According to a second male studednt, a junior, such activity has been commonplace in the Campus Center restrooms.</p>

<p>“I know it’s a lot of older people, non-College students, but I know there’s some College students involved as well,” he said.</p>

<p>The junior said he noticed a one-and-a-half-inch hole in the stall wall and work-ordered it. He said it appears to have been punched out again.</p>

<p>The junior reported that on one occasion an older man looked over a stall wall as the student was using a urinal and invited him to join in sexual activity.</p>

<p>“That was not something I would ever expect from a bathroom,” the student said.</p>

<p>He also said that last semester he heard that some males would frequent the restroom during lunchtime to “mess around real quick.” He said the participants included students, men in their 30s and 40s and other non-student males, including a College employee.</p>

<p>Julian Carr, president of the College’s Gay Student Union, expressed surprise and concern over the reported incidents.</p>

<p>“The GSU has no knowledge whatsoever of anything that may or not by occurring in the Campus Center restrooms,” he said. “Any possible ‘cruisers’ on campus … would not be likely to be known to, or interact with, the GSU membership.”</p>

<p>The Campus Center bathrooms are listed on the website <a href=“http://www.cruisingforsex.com%5B/url%5D”>www.cruisingforsex.com</a>. The graphic gay-oriented site boasts “the world’s most comprehensive list of places men cruise; places to avoid” and lists two Campus Center male restrooms as cruising spots.</p>

<p>“It really disappointed me that its even listed on the internet and our school is listed as a sex site,” the junior said.</p>

<p>According to Challis, the alleged restroom activities are categorized as disorderly conduct. Challis said that similar incidents have occurred “over time on and off.”</p>

<p>When such activities are reported, Campus Police investigate the allegations. If they observe similar behavior and can identify the perpetrator, they issue a trespass warning and escort the individual off campus. If the perpetrator returns, he is arrested for trespassing.</p>

<p>Challis said that Campus Police do not have plans at this time to issue a warning to the campus community.</p>

<p>“The problem with a warning is that if it is not judicious, it loses its meaning,” he said. “If we see a continued pattern we will address it either through a warning or more targeted enforcement.”</p>

<p>“I know it’s a lot of older people, non-College students, but I know there’s some College students involved as well.”</p>

<pre><code>- ANONYMOUS MALE STUDENT, JUNIOR"
</code></pre>

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<p>So alwaysamom how many patients or friends or friends of you daughter have you known who have had fleeting or even intense homosexual experiences as adolescents that went on to lead happy heterosexual lives as adults or vice versa? What does the literature say? Are people who have homosexual relationships in prison, at same sex boarding schools, in military service but then go on the leade conventional lives homosexuals, heterosexuals, or just the usual complicated bundle of drives, needs, and desires that we humans are?</p>

<p>A 13 or 14 year old who wants to be a drag queen or a giggolo probably has issues that need resolving if you ask me but you are the expert.</p>

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<p>higherlead: how would you parent an openly gay 13 yr old?</p>

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<p>HL, the people you are talking about (those who experienced limited homosexual attraction or engaged in homosexual sexual activity due to convenience) overwhelmingly do not identify themselves as gay and take the biggest step of that process by coming out to their parents. There are some people who identify as gay for a short period of time and then realize that they are straight. They do this all by themselves without needing any kind of professional help. I don’t understand what your last post has to do with your statements that self-identified gay youth need professional intervention of some sort. The people you describe almost never identify as gay and come out to their parents; furthermore, if they did and then later on re-evaluated their feelings, I still don’t see why a professional would be needed any more than one would be needed for thirteen year old boys who identify as straight because they may at some point re-define themselves as gay. </p>

<p>I also do not think that teens who like to dress up in the conventional clothing of the opposite sex have issues that “need resolving.” I am not going to touch on the “gigolo” issue, which is IMO very strange to bring up.</p>

<p>Collegialmom, I don’t understand how the article you posted is all that related. It’s an issue on that campus involving inappropriate sexual advances by students and community members in the college’s bathrooms. These men are all adults, and according to the article students at the college are involved, as well. How is this at all an example of pedophilia?</p>

<p>On the therapist issue, I do think that the therapist taking the kid is strange and inappropriate. If the therapist wanted to transition into being a mentor, he should have referred the child to a different therapist. For all we know, that could be what happened, and the article didn’t make that clear (which is entirely possible). I don’t have a very large problem with the kid being at gay bingo because in the gay community older mentors are not uncommon. Since historically and today most gay teenagers feel very alone and cannot necessarily depend on their parents or friends for support, advice, or understanding, many older gay men and lesbians act as a substitute support system. Even with supportive parents, it is useful for young gay people to be able to connect with other gay people who have the personal understanding that most parents lack. I’m not saying that this is what happened in this case in particular, but I wanted to bring up the fact that legitimate non-sexual friendships and mentor relationships are quite prevalent.</p>

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<p>“Even with supportive parents, it is useful for young gay people to be able to connect with other gay people who have the personal understanding that most parents lack.”</p>

<p>Absolutely! And where does a parent look for those individuals? Am I misreading the article? Wasn’t the bingo a church activity/group?</p>

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<p>I don’t know. I haven’t done it. Hopefully I wouldn’t have a kid who was having sex at 13 for starters. </p>

<p>I’ve got a 22 year old who could be in to farm animals for all I know of his love life. He is very private person and always has been. Every family has to work this things out for themselves but as I say if I had a 13 year old wearing a tiara at gay bingo night I would want a fuller picture of the whole context. It is not the homosexuality per say but the context of homosexuality. I would want to raise a kid capable of stable long lasting human relationships.</p>