<p>Art…the voice of experience 
too tired to check out the star filled skys?</p>
<p>epiphany + katliamom, the same thought here re humanities majors… With engineering I tend to toss in all the hard sciences although I realize pre med kids seem to have a better shot at their alma mater</p>
<p>So, point # 6 for Cur’s list? This strategy may work better for science and engineering sorts? Goes along with the “find the researcher you will be working with”…</p>
<p>Alumother: I’d go with that although I have no facts or experience to back it up.</p>
<p>Here’s one for ya…My S1 took the big scholarship AND is in the College of Forestry!</p>
<p>Curmudgeon, I’m not in love with a list. I know as people we are always trying to quantify the unquantifiable.</p>
<p>I think you apply to the schools you want to go to and if money is an issue, make sure you have apply to a few schools you can afford and where you have a chance for aid.</p>
<p>Then when all your acceptances come in, you sit down, gather more information, visit schools, whatever works for you, and you think.</p>
<p>Then you go with your gut, which you hope is made up of your brains and your heart.</p>
<p>I don’t think most people really know what their thinking is going to be until it is crunch time. </p>
<p>It’s real easy in March to think I’m going to do this.
Once the acceptances come in things can change.
Seeing the word Congratulations on the envelope has an affect.
On April 30th or May 1st, the wind may be blowing in a totally new direction.</p>
<p>Then when the decision is made, be happy. Have fun. Don’t look back. Look forward.</p>
<p>It’s 4 years out of 100. Your education doesn’t end when college ends.
Hopefully, your fun doesn’t end either. :)</p>
<p>If you have to have a list, have a list.</p>
<p>Re: not telling everyone that your D got the big scholarship, cur — after D made her overnight visits, she told me that she didn’t have the faintest idea whether or not she had met any so-and-so scholarship winners. She also said she didn’t think anyone cared who might have those great scholarships. Maybe it’s not that way at every school, but I’m glad D found some schools where that stuff doesn’t matter to the other kids (your D’s school is one of them). I know someone at an elite LAC who says the first few weeks were filled with comparing SAT scores and which ivies they turned down. Bet that wouldn’t be a place for cur’s D!! (or mine)</p>
<p>If you have to have a list, have a list.</p>
<p>It’s a compulsion, what can I say? </p>
<p>5). In return for the exceptional perks, you must be willing to meet the expectations and demands outlined by the grantors of said perks.This includes the whole spectrum of obligations including GPA, “functions” and hosting prospies, , major, etc. )</p>
<p>I like it Zixxa.</p>
<p>6). This strategy may work better for science and engineering sorts as some consideration needs to be paid to uber grad/pro schools preferring the Top school over the scholarship school. A student with grad/pro school ambitions in all fields needs to reseach recent placements of graduates of each school . Also some employers may prefer the top school for the the first job for publishing, politics, Wall Street, investment banking and some other careers. A student who has a clear career goal or even an inkling that lasts more than a month of a general area they want to work in after graduation needs to research if there is an added benefit the degree from the Top School might bring, especially in the areas mentioned. The schools should have that data available. </p>
<p>I did that in a hurry. I didn’t do very well. Someone want to give it another shot, then put the list together?</p>
<p>Welcome Adigal! Sounds like your son should look at University of Chicago as a possible match. It offers one of the finest undergraduate liberal arts educations within a much larger research university. 4000 undergrads, 1:6 student/ professor ratio, core curriculum, attracts bright, slightly quirky kids who share a passion for learning. The admissions committee is known to pay more attention to the application essays than SAT scores or GPA’s, though they still are a factor. Another college, which is a reach for just about anyone is Dartmouth, which has it’s own mountain for skiing !They love really smart, athletic, all around nice students, but he would probably have to get his GPA up to have a chance.</p>
<p>This success story just crossed my desk: The Val of the high school class just ahead of my son turned down a whole host of superselectives for a full-ride at Clemson. His distinction was a perfect score on all his IB exams, which is quite rare and his choice, at the time, really surprised his academic mentors. He distinguished himself at Clemson is now at Columbia Medical.</p>
<p>One point I think that drew him to Clemson was that his family was from the area and they all (he included) took a kind of regional pride in supporting their home team.</p>
<p>To your list of what leads to success in the case we’re talking about I’d add:</p>
<p>Make sure that your acdemic area of interest is well represented in depth and breadth, including internship opportunities. I know that college students often change majors so this is a risky proposition, but again, I can only speak from experience. My son went in with an idea of what he wanted to study and (hopefully) will emerge fully armed for battle in the same discipline.</p>
<p>Also how about if you are unclear on a major, and it might be humanities, make sure that many small seminars with really good professors and motivated students are available to you. Never mind what kind of grad school or pro school you want to go to or not. That’s something you are pretty much guaranteed to be able to find at HYPS and it’s in my opinion required for a top-notch humanities education so if you want hum and all you can find is large lectures or classes that lack rigor in discussion you will be a saddie…</p>
<p>Visit. Go to 300-level classes. See how the “level of discourse” fits your preferences.</p>
<p>A friend I sent to this site asked if I thought a few plants could turn a significant number of applicants off on ivies thereby giving her child a better chance. Sounds plausible. People who support the better overall school at greater costs seem to have taken to PMing. I’m not so sure a dent can’t be made.</p>
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<p>I think your friend may need services not offered by this site.</p>
<p>She was bowled over at posters repeating themselves and their key points over and over again in further hopes of winning a point. It does start to look pretty silly.</p>
<p>Glad ya’ll are getting something out of it. A lot of the responses today have set records for their generous tone and cordial manner, not to mention they are going to be a great help to many in the next few weeks.</p>
<p>Kirmum, why does a dent have to be made?</p>
<p>I agree with you. If you want to work into investment banking on the east coast you should go to one of the Ivys, Duke, NYU, Williams, Amherst, maybe Stanford, MIT, maybe a few other schools.</p>
<p>If you want to work at certain law firms, going to an IVY will help.</p>
<p>If you want to go to Yale or Harvard Law, going to an IVY will help.</p>
<p>If you want to hang around IVY graduates, one of the best ways is to go to one and become one yourself. </p>
<p>If you want to work and live in the east coast, an IVY may be the way to go.</p>
<p>There are plenty of reasons to go to an IVY.</p>
<p>I’m sure you have more. :)</p>
<p>Kirmum, what do you think of Reed, Swarthmore, Chicago, Wesleyan, Pomona, and St. Johns as choices to go to school compared to Ivys?</p>
<p>The whole college admissions thing is silly. I’m involved and I’m not an exception. :)</p>
<p>If I’m still involved in two months, I may have to be committed. :)</p>
<p>I won’t repeat my thought again but I do think your list is good Dstark with different schools requiring very different types of students.</p>
<p>Isn’t the important thing this thread has shown is that most people emerge from their personal decision happy?</p>
<p>That anti-wealth, supposed anti-prestige stance has been the typical CC stance for all the years I’ve been participating. Don’t let it get up your nose. This conversation has been cordial although there has been some PMng by those who don’t want to get the beat down for their top school beliefs.</p>
<p>Note to #6–the scholarship sorting method does not work as well for high-end finance jobs in New York and London and Hong Kong and Shanghai. It does not work as well for high-end professional jobs in New York City or London or Hong Kong or Shanghai or Seoul–where prestige is king. That said, it’s hard to bet against full-freight academic kids. Chances are that cream will rise to the top.</p>
<p>I’m sure my boys feel the same as Hanna–having never had to put their heads down to earn their way though a better school. I will try to drill it in to them that the experience is worth the elbow grease, but ya never know. </p>
<p>Speaking as someone who did have to pull out the stops to go to a more expensive school, I’d go for the better school in a heartbeat, any day of the week. Opportunities to surround yourself with brilliant peers are limited–unless you stay in academia. For me, yacking it up with Quantity Surveyors and Contractors all day, those years with a top peer group were so SO worth the hassle of the money. </p>
<p>It’s only money. It isn’t that hard to come by with a good degree and a little bit of daring. So says me.</p>
<p>Kirmum, absolutely. I agree with you.</p>
<p>Why the all caps? IVY? It’s not an acronym. I’ve always wondered why people call them IVYs…</p>
<p>
What makes you think that sort of thing isn’t available at public universities? I went to UC Davis - I remember my first quarter in a history of western philosophy class – the course was in a small classroom with no more than about 25 students, animated discussions throughout, a great prof. I also learned a very valuable lesson from a fellow student (who happened to also be my roommate) – she was never afraid to ask questions, even ones that sounded dumb – I realized that she got much more from her classes that way, and that the “dumb question” often touches on something others are wondering about and the answers often provide needed clarification. So I don’t mind being in a classroom where there are other kids who aren’t all that brilliant, as long as they are kids who really want to learn and understand. </p>
<p>The really huge classes at public universities are the intro level math & sciences – and that is one reason I shifted my focus toward social sciences/humanities early on. I think the smallest class I took was a history seminar with 6 students – that was really too small, because it didn’t have the critical mass to keep discussion going, especially on a bad day if more than a couple of kids didn’t show up. (Bad weather, cold/flus going around, etc.) But I had many, many classes in the range of 15-30 students – far more that I can recall than really huge lectures. </p>
<p>I also learned early on that the best profs were not necessarily the ones with the best credentials. Often it was the lecturers or adjuncts who were really excited about their subjects and well prepared for their classes, while the profs who were acknowledged leaders in their fields sometimes didn’t do much more than go through the motions. There were a few very notable exceptions – but I learned to rely on word of mouth and not the credentials of the prof in choosing a course. So it didn’t really matter whether the prof had a Ph.D. from Yale or from OSU. </p>
<p>My son has all small courses at his CSU – he was griping the other day about a course he doesn’t like and I asked him how many students were in it - he said about 20. But he has courses he does like too – his problem is that he is a transfer and looking to graduate in a year, but has to make up a bunch of gen ed and entry level courses for his major - he’s finding the upper level courses to be very stimulating and is quite happy with the profs, just happens to be frustrated with needing to pick up the intro courses at this stage of the game. Plus he is a 24 year old probably feeling like an old man in a class filled with 19 year olds. (And keep in mind that this is the NM Finalist son --combine that with his age & real world experience – he’s no slouch intellectually). </p>
<p>I also remember that the best and most stimulating class discussions I experienced as an undergrad - and on into law school – alway took place in the classes that were the most ethnically and economically diverse. There were just more viewpoints expressed, and things got more animated. (Kind of like this board – it gets people ticked off, but I doubt the discussion would be as interesting if there weren’t the divergent viewpoints – imagine discussing issues like affirmative action without the contribution of African American and Asian parents. I’m sure it would all be much more polite, and the moderators would never have to step in to put out the little brush fires crop up from time to time – but no one would learn anything new) </p>
<p>So I can see why my son was frustrated at the lack of diversity at his LAC - and I worry a little about lack of economic diversity at my d’s college. (Racial/ethnic diversity for her is probably as good or better than a UC campus these days or my son’s CSU - I was better off because I went through school at a time when affirmative action and the EOP program were very strong). </p>
<p>Now maybe in math or physics courses this diversity of viewpoint wouldn’t be as essential – I was a quasi poli sci major who ended up spinning that off into an individualized major related to poverty law & community organizing – but I guess the laws of physics are the same whether the person grew up in Watts or Beverly Hills… but not so with social & political issues, or an individual’s response to ideas explored in literature or philosophy</p>
<p>Anyway - I don’t doubt that the Ivies offer a good education. I am sure that from a qualitative standpoint, my daughter is getting a better education right now at Barnard than my son is getting at his CSU. I just am not sure that its $30,000 better, which fortunately is a sum of money I don’t have to pay. $5000 better? sure. $10,000 better?.. maybe. $30K … no way. I had the very good fortune to get to sit in on one of my d’s classes with a very well known prof. and I was very impressed with the academics – it was clearly an excellent course with an excellent teacher… but I don’t think it was significantly better than that philosophy course I took my first quarter at UCD.</p>
<p>The main difference that I can see, as a parent removed from the situation, is the quality of writing that my kids produced. My daughter’s writing is amazing. My son’s writing was amazing after his first semester at his LAC, and has really deteriorated now. I ask my son why he turns in such shallow work and he says that the profs put page limits on all the assignments - they never want to see anything more than 5 pages long, and they assign papers on broad topics so there really is now way to cover the topic in any way other than a very superficial manner. So I guess that’s one place where the elite colleges may shine; but both Barnard and my son’s first LAC are really well known for their ability to produce good writers - so it may just be particular to that type of school. I mean, if I compared a public U. to MIT for math, I’m sure MIT would come out way ahead – but I’ll bet most UC campuses are better for math than Barnard.</p>