<p>My 8th grade son recently scored a zero on a Religion (catholic school) test for talking in class after he handed it in. This brought his current grade in Religion down 10 points to an 83(lowest grade in his history) and his GPA down 3 points-to an 89-generally GPA is 91-95. This year has gotten off to a bumpy start-he is bored to tears at school to begin with-has been for years and of course is having trouble focusing on school instead of friends. Anyhow, after his first visit to boarding school he became motivated once again and is back on track. But how will this first semester and that zero effect his chances of getting into the boarding school of his choice? He is applying to some of the top schools with FA and his SAT(7th grade through John Hopkins) score in the 90%, SSAT 87%. Thanks so much for any insight you could provide.</p>
<p>Have you escalated this to the principal. Seems awfully harsh for talking in class. I could see a need for some disiplinary action but the consequences of the lower GPA, etc seem to be more extreme that the actual offense.</p>
<p>Agree with above poster. I would explain your plans regarding applying out for High School and ask them to reconsider the punishment for talking in class. Seems like a very inappropriate consequence anyway - a child should not suffer academically because of a minor infraction that most children engage in. You hear of too many stories like this coming out of parochial schools.</p>
<p>If it is any consolation my D got into a to a HADES BS with a C in PE on her report card for forgetting her gym shoes too many times in one trimester. Look at it as a life lesson for your S. Find a way to explain what happened in an essay, parent statement or interview. Particularly if he can talk about what he learned from the experience.</p>
<p>oooooooooo…this kind of stuff makes my blood boil. Why do schools insist on polluting grades with things that have nothing to do with mastery of content?</p>
<p>I actually would go to the principal and ask why the grade should be affected. I wouldn’t make excuses for S’s behaviour and actually stress that I DO think that he should be punished for talking out of turn, but that giving a zero makes the entire grade meaningless. It reflects something that is simply not true. Make a note that he talks too much, but don’t try to say that he doesn’t know the material when he obviously does. It’s completely dishonest.</p>
<p>But this stuff really does make me angry. Cutting kids grades because of behaviour is bullying, plain and simple. “Do as I say or I’m going to take away something that you have rightfully earned.” How is this different from taking his milk money?</p>
<p>Assuming that the rule and penalty were known in advance, I’m inclined to agree with 1012mom vs. Madaket and BonnieNJ. It’s just one grade in an entire application package…and as far as I know, not going to trigger the “discipline issue” question (Has your child been suspended, dismissed from any school…). If he was going to get admitted with the rest of his application, he will most likely still get in despite the 83 in a secondary subject.</p>
<p>Unless it is a chronic thing with this specific teacher and other students have experienced similar treatment, I don’t think it’s cause for escalation within the school.</p>
<p>I would also be concerned with the “message” being sent to my child. I would feel compelled as a parent to go in and make the case that it was an inappropriate punishment for talking in class. If I didn’t do that, my actions would speak volumes to my child. Who knows how they would process that it their young minds.</p>
<p>Another option might be to speak with the teacher about his aspirations and ask if there is anything else that he might do (i.e. an additional assignment) to help bring his grade up.</p>
<p>@Madaket: I have the opposite view. I think it sends a message that Mom and Dad will fix things that didn’t go their child’s way. I have heard of other parents doing the escalation thing at our former public school and always felt like “Hey, if 20 other kids took the same test and have to live with the grade they got, why should your kid be treated any differently?”</p>
<p>Again, I am stating my POV based on what I know. I might even say that even if the teacher is known for this sort of thing…at least it’s a known quantity and the son should have been aware of possible consequences.</p>
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<p>…because his grade had nothing to do with his performance on the test. He got a zero based on something completely unrelated to his understanding of what was being tested. Why not grade him on what color socks he wears?</p>
<p>I’m in the camp that suggests leave well enough alone. Life isn’t fair. It’s a good life lesson. I’m of the mind, one grade, one test, one subject does not make or end a student career, but it’s what you do over time. I think kids should know hard work pays off, and the best way parents can help is be supportive AT HOME. Stay outta school. Kids don’t need us to fight their battles, or they’ll never learn.</p>
<p>Now, on the other hand, the suggestion to encourage the student to go and talk to the teacher himself is valuable on many fronts. It teaches the child responsibility, trying to work it out, empowers the kid vs. the parents etc.</p>
<p>In the end, life isn’t fair, and one 0 isn’t going to make or break a kid. The student should be taught to take it all in stride. Or he can ask the teacher how to make amends.</p>
<p>SevenDad, I try very hard not to be in a position of mom always fixing things. But, to me this sounds like too much of a bad consequence for a small infraction. Perhaps we don’t know the whole story and it was one of many infractions and the consequences were clearly understood. If so, then the OP’s son knew the consequences of persistant behaviorial issues.
If not, I am questioning the judgement of the teacher’s response. I do not think a 14 year old has the maturity or skill to take that on and would need a parent to assist.
If the grade stands, I think it will need to be handled in an essay or interview with the schools where OP’s son comes across as contrite but matured through the experience.</p>
<p>@neato: See my first post in this thread: “Assuming the rule and penalty were known in advance…”</p>
<p>I had a teacher in high school who said up front that he would deduct 2 points from a lab report if it was not stapled using 2 staples at a 45 degree angle. The year before I had him, he was one of the teachers that got invited to the White House. He is still at my HS, and much beloved by current and former students.</p>
<p>I’m basing my POV on what has been reported by the OP, plus the assumption that the rule and penalty were common knowledge. I see nothing wrong with the teacher giving a zero if in fact he/she said that “If you are talking in class after the test, you will get an automatic zero.”</p>
<p>You’re right, red. I just have such a HUGE philosophical problem with grade pollution. </p>
<p>Life isn’t fair and I was just telling my little one yesterday that he can’t control what someone else thinks, but that he knows what’s in his heart. (Admin insists that he did something on purpose when he had no malice whatsoever.) I told him to take whatever punishment like a man and move on. Besides, the other kid knows it was an accident and doesn’t blame him. That’s what is really important.</p>
<p>To the OP, sorry that I crawled up on my soapbox. It just drives me crazy when teachers use grades as a means of classroom management. I don’t think it’ll effect his application that much. Really, they will look at his core courses and his recommendations. Don’t listen to me! I’m much too nutty about this subject. Redbluegoldgreen gives good advice, I think.</p>
<p>SevenDad: at the risk of hijacking this thread, just because a rule is known before hand (and let’s even assume that something was sent home to be signed by the parent at the beginning of the year) doesn’t make it right! I have signed “classroom policies” at the beginning of the year, not because I agreed with them, but because if I didn’t, my KID’S grade would suffer!!! They were being graded on my signing a piece of paper! Just because it’s known doesn’t make it reasonable.</p>
<p>My issue is that grades should reflect mastery and mastery only. Conduct, compliance, EFFORT, etc should not factor into a classroom grade at ALL. They can have a separate little box for an effort grade or conduct, but I need to be able to look at my child’s grade and think, “Oh, she’s has an understanding of 95% of the curriculum thus presented.” But when things like conduct come into the grading rubric, it is no longer possible to say, with any confidence, that the child with an 80 knows more than the child with a 60.</p>
<p>@neato, I’m inclined to say the OP’s should not try to go over the teacher’s head on this point. Even the OP doesn’t know the entire context. It could well be that the OP’s son knew the rule against talking, and chose to talk anyway. Maybe the teacher has instituted the “no talking” rule to discourage cheating. </p>
<p>It’s Religion. It’s not Math. To me, Religion and Health are the sort of subjects which aren’t nearly as important in measuring a student’s potential as are Math, Science, English, and foreign languages. Also, the school’s recommendation is much more important than any single grade.</p>
<p>Here’s something which may be more relevant to how the same student might handle the situation in BS if he is allowed to manage it in middle school.</p>
<p>For better or worse, my husband and I decided not to intervene in son’s middle school career, but rather to support him at home by listening, advising, helping (when asked) to study for a quiz etc. Whereas on back to school night in 4th grade, we asked the teacher to go over the Math HW daily, because how will a child learn if no one catches and corrects mistakes and teaches how to do the problem the right way?, but now in middle school, although we attended back to school nights, we made a conscious decision to let him take charge of his own education, including making his own mistakes, voicing his own needs to teachers, askng for help when needed etc. We never once in three years signed up for any parent teacher conferences, not sure we really needed to as son is an all A student.</p>
<p>Fast forward now to first year at elite BS. Son told us that in a recent class, teacher showed up late then forgot he had told the class there would be a test. Whereas my son didn’t mind, thinking the teacher’s suggestion they use the time for review was a good one, other students insisted that the teacher go get the test because they had studied and had other tests the next day that required their time that evening (also reasonable). The teacher is sort of an absent minded professor, I won’t even go into the detail re what type of class; we’ve all had such teachers who talk to the blackboard vs. the class, who don’t relate well due to their head in the stratosphere, brilliant in some matters, but not always down to earth on practical ones etc. </p>
<p>At any rate, teacher had trouble with the printer, couldn’t get the test out fast enough and the students lost 20 minutes or more, while other classes got the full time for the test. One could argue that it was fair for the students in the same class who got short timed, but not for others who got the full time, and all freshman are compared across the board come college time. DS on his own was able to go to the teacher and express his concerns along with possible solutions, don’t count the test, offer a re-do, extra credit etc. And guess what? The problem was resolved to everyone’s satisfaction.</p>
<p>You gotta start somewhere and I believe the earlier the better. Teaching how to fish, vs. giving the fish is always of more value to your student. In this case, I would let the student try to figure it out, be a good sounding board. I bet it will pay off both in the short and long run.</p>
<p>You’re all right. </p>
<p>I always to do go about things by trying to understand. When people are irrational, it confuses me. I tend to approach things as I suggested in post #5. </p>
<p>But yeah, OP. Don’t do it. I mean, what are they going to say, “By Golly, You’re right!!!”</p>
<p>Neato: who knows? They might just say that. You never know what the politics are like - maybe the teacher is not well liked, principal sick of all the compliants and looking for a reason to reprimand her… I like the idea of having the child talk to the teacher himself,expressing why he is so concerned and offering to do make-up work. If she still says “no”, then in my mind she has some sort of “axe to grind”.</p>
<p>OP says that her son talked after he handed his test in, not after all students had handed the test in. Assuming the class was still in test mode, here’s an ex-high school teacher’s perspective: </p>
<p>It’s inappropriate to talk in class during or after a test. Students who talk during tests are often asking for or giving away test information. Either way, they’re cheating. Students who cheat deserve 0’s. The consequence was not inappropriate.</p>
<p>I’m not saying, by the way, that the OP’s kid cheated–just that it’s not the teacher’s job to discern innocent post-test chitchat from cheating while there’s a test going on.</p>
<p>By the way, I think this topic would make a great “Describe a mistake you made and what you learned” application essay.</p>
<p>Fire away…</p>