2021s - How will you judge how colleges do this fall?

Parents Forum
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21

@wisteria100 I can’t blame a school, of course, if it’s in a state that’s hard hit but does that mean it shouldn’t move down the list? That’s part of the problem. If the virus is not as much of a factor in 2021-2022 then a school in a current hot spot might be just fine but we don’t know. Looking at it from the student’s perspective, why would they risk going to a school that might have a harder time getting back into the swing of things? I have a friend whose daughter is at Scripps and my gut tells me that the weather there is going to help those kids stay outside and have more normalcy than what S19 is likely going to experience.

So, do students start looking at schools in that way? Maybe.

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I think my strategy is to watch the class of 2020 thread about what they are experiencing and the college/university forum for the specific college to read what are the latest issues. Originally we had hoped to visit a couple schools on her list this past spring, but those were cancelled and now the plan is to apply to several, see the merit offers…narrow down based on info from this website advice/virtual tours/youtube, maybe visit in January if any of the prospects are in session (J term) or spring break. It is not what we had originally planned but hoping it will work. It would be nice if she would be able to visit campus before attending. I am also hoping that she will be accepted to PSEO at our local state flagship. That should give her a good idea of what a large public U would be like and what she likes/dislikes about that environment. I am looking a lot toward the expertise on this website–their are a lot of great people here willing to share their experiences!! Thank you.

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https://healthalerts.stanford.edu/covid-19/2020/06/03/a-message-from-president-marc-tessier-lavigne-and-provost-persis-drell-on-academic-planning-for-the-fall-quarter-and-2020-21-academic-year/

  • Undergraduate housing will be at reduced density (singles or two room doubles).
  • Graduate student housing already has single bedrooms in apartment type housing.
  • Fall quarter starts early, does not return after Thankgiving (final exams done remotely).
  • Each student will have two on-campus quarters and one remote quarter.
  • Summer quarter will be included in the normal academic year.
  • Fall will have incoming frosh and transfers on campus.
  • Spring will have graduating seniors on campus.
  • Which students will be on campus which quarters is otherwise not yet determined.
  • "Indeed, we will need to view online as the default teaching option for 2020-21, to be supplemented by in-person instruction as much as is safe and feasible for students and faculty who are present on campus."
  • All classes larger than 50 expected to be online.
  • Class times will likely range from 8am to 9pm.
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@1Lotus That sounds like a good plan. I do think kids will be able to visit campuses this fall but the visits will be limited. No overnights. Likely no way to sit in a class. We’ve asked a number of AOs from schools on D21’s list and they all say they will allow visitors.

Anyone out there who was planning on using ED but now is having second thoughts? Want to wait longer to see how it goes?

I figure D21 can be ready to pull the trigger on Nov 1 and then wait until the last minute to decide.

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@homerdog Since D is not trying to ED, I guess our plan works well enough for her. All the schools she is interested in are a plane ride away, though, in various states so it may be difficult to decide which ones to visit.

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Well, D21 is not going to get into Stanford. Lots of schools have announced plans but the place to list those is on that other thread. I’m aware of most plans that have been announced. My question here is more about how much these plans (and, really, how the schools really proceed in fall) should affect the college lists of 2021ers.

And I’m not as pessimistic as @coffeeat3. I’m just not. Many schools will get past this and return to the way they looked last year at some point. Just not sure when since the virus is “deciding the timeline” as so many like to say.

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@homerdog But Scripps may have a harder time than Bowdoin because CA has been very hard hit and ME has relatively few cases. Plus Scripps is in a close consortium so perhaps more opportunity for community spread. I bet Brunswick ME has very few cases

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@wisteria100 True. But those Mainers are NOT happy about kids returning to school and possibly bringing the virus with them. Maine is one of only two states (that I know of) that still has visitors quarantining for 14 days upon arrival.

Lots of variables out there, of course, depending on the state, the size of the school, the ability for the school to make investments in changing things up this year, etc.

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@homerdog you are right about that! My mom’s friend traveled to her vacation home in ME to try to get it ready for the summer and stopped at a grocery store on the way. They would not let her enter because they saw her out of state plates. Why she just didn’t bring her groceries with her is another story ??‍♀️.

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If I had a 2021 kid, I would look at two things:

  1. how is the new Fall 2020 experience compared to the old Fall 2019 experience? Has the college tried to maintain (as much as possible) the great things they have historically promised and delivered on during this most challenging time? For example, as a resident of CA, I’m pretty disgusted that all 23 California State Universities (CSUs) could not figured out a way to bring students back on campus in the fall. In my mind they “gave up” in early May before even giving it a chance. Even UC Berkeley cannot guarantee freshman housing even if the college opens the campus in the fall.

  2. Solvency? Which colleges will be able to weather this storm and have the revenue, resources, and leadership to come out of this in a good financial position. Most colleges have a fiscal year ended June 30th and will be releasing their financials in September. Pay close attention to how their endowment money fared these past 12 months and if there will be major cutbacks of faculty, administrators, and programs over the next 4 years. You might even see some college closings as a result of CV-19.

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Since you are looking for a luxury class residential college and prioritize the experience, you are not the target market for CSUs (economy class mostly commuter) or UCs (economy class mostly residential).

With respect to dorm space, it is possible that a luxury class college has low density dorms to begin with, so it would not have to reduce capacity to maintain whatever its desired social distancing will be. Or it believes that its students and parents prioritize the luxury class residential college experience more than social distancing to reduce the spread of COVID-19 (higher SES families are less likely to be suffering either the medical or economic effects of COVID-19).

32

What tricky planning!

But if it was me, I would not put a large emphasis on analyzing how the schools handle this fall. Here would be my reasoning:

1). I personally don’t believe by the time these kids get to school in fall 2021 things will be at the same state they are in this fall. I am optimistic about what I read on vaccines (and manufacturing of vaccines—if the Oxford/Astra Zeneca vaccine works, they have already lined up 2 billion doses of manufactured product within less than 6 months. One large company in India is already getting started on what it needs for 1 billion of those doses and the other billion I believe is split between a few manufacturers). I also believe that 15 months from now, not only will there be the large possibility of vaccine plus much better treatments, but there will be greater natural immunity from prior exposure (I do not mean to turn this thread into arguing on these points; I know we don’t have “proof” of immunity, but I am personally convinced by readings and infectious disease doctor friends that all appearances point to a good level of immunity similar to past SARS 3+ years immunity—I have no crystal ball or inside knowledge, so this point is simply how “I” would view this decision for my child—I strongly believe fall 2021 will be pretty much back to normal. If I didn’t believe that I would think differently about this decision. Clearly we all have different beliefs about fall 2021 and that’s ok! None of us “knows”…there’s a bit of a gamble either way.

2). While I often think to a certain extent how a [person, institution, government, family, etc] handles one situation CAN be indicative of how they handle all situations, I also often find this isn’t remotely true. I do believe it’s possible for an institution that typically shows incredible regard for its students to botch one thing. So I would still care infinitely more about how my child likes the campus, academic fit, students, level of diversity, extracurricular opportunities, etc more.

3). I think 2020-2021 is an experiment year, and the schools will learn from each other. So even if the pandemic situation doesn’t change one whit between now and then, 2021-2022 could easily be handled differently at schools. If by next spring, it looks like the Stanford model of individual students being on campus 2/3 of the year is best, others may emulate it for 2021-2022. If it looks like there is no flu-season flare-up, this whole “let’s get off campus at Thanksgiving” could go out the window. If tents and portable buildings end up being successful this year even in the Northeast, more would buy them for the following year. If we learn different things about spread, it could change basically everything. But I don’t think just because certain schools get it right this fall, that others can’t/won’t imitate best practices for your 21’s fall.

4). And I definitely would hate my kid to make a decision based on not liking how one person or department phrases things (ie if we didn’t like what a tour guide or even an admissions officer says, or the wording of the tour cancellation, etc). These places are made up of thousands of people and there can always be an inarticulate person who probably shouldn’t be representing the school but occasional bad hiring happens. It’s hard not to be turned off by someone who says something that rubs us the wrong way, but we only spite ourselves if we can’t look past that. If a perfect-fit, fantastic school has a representative who is having a stressful bad day and words something wrong, what a shame to cross them off the list.

Anyway, good luck in your decision process. I am so hopeful for your 21 that things will be 96% back to normal for their freshman year!!

33

Are parents and students planning to do a “shotgun” approach to applications and decide on a favorite in April so they have as much time as possible to see where we are with COVID-19?

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I’m not sure what you mean. Apply to a bunch of schools and choose one in April 2021? Well, that’s pretty much the plan for anyone applying next year without ED since decision dates are generally May 1 for the following fall.

Or maybe you mean decide on some favorites now and watch how they do this fall and “April” is a typo?

35

I don’t understand the premise of this thread. It seems you are rejecting a school or schools because they were careful enough to cancel tours. And that you will reject school options that prioritize safety over the personalized experience you have long imagined. Perhaps your kids are so healthy and your family has not experienced health crises, so you feel invulnerable, and reject concerns about the virus. I really don’t get it.

I would also suggest that folks learn more about online classes and have an open mind. The Zoom remote lectures done on an emergency basis hardly represent the potential. One of mine teaches and has spent the last months training to teach online. Zoom and other online classes can be quite interactive, with breakout rooms for small group work, office hours, and other ways to connect with peers and professor.

I just feel things are a little backwards here. You want to prioritize schools that are not focusing on safe handling of COVID but instead are denying the risks and maintaining normalcy as much as possible.

The schools most likely to maintain normalcy may be small schools that cannot afford to focus on the virus, or would otherwise fail financially. Wealthier schools can afford to do hybrid or even all online (Harvard just said 6 grad schools won’t be open).

These are not moral decisions, mostly. They are financial. And the choices schools make in handling the virus will not reflect the overall quality of the program.

I would choose schools based on long term quality (and chance of surviving this fiscal disaster) not on how they handle COVID. Though in my view, which seems to be the opposite of yours, a school that hews too close to “normalcy” for financial reasons may be the last on our list. I respect any administration that respects the risks to health and safety of students.

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@compmom Yikes. Apparently I’m not explaining myself very well. Of course I want the students and faculty to be safe but I also want the college to be communicating thoughtfully and making smart decisions. Some colleges out there made their decisions early to shut down in the spring. I applauded that. Make the decision, be clear in the directions about moving out of dorms and help kids do so. At some schools, alums and/or faculty even helped kids move out and the college paid for shipping some things home. That’s the kind of thing I’m talking about. Other schools waited too long, kind of jerked students are while trying to decide, didn’t give them a chance to move out.

Also, some schools did a good job moving to remote classes and others did not. That’s another point of comparison.

What I mean about fall is - how upfront and honest is the college being with students? Keeping them informed and being creative in their plans to keep everyone safe and giving them the best experience possible. Are there types of schools who are doing this better overall? Smaller schools? Schools in warmer weather areas who have the chance to build tents outside and use them for the whole school year so they can have class in person and still keep everyone safe? Our D has a few northern schools on her list. Will it be harder for them to resume any classes and keep everyone healthy? What about the one urban school she has on her list? Should she consider dropping it because it’s in a hot spot and we just don’t know if there’s any safe way to go back?

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@EmptyNestSoon2 I get your point and that was another reason for starting this thread. Maybe we shouldn’t be considering next year’s situation too too much and go back to how she was choosing schools before Covid. Some 2020 grads here stuck the course and others made different decisions based on what the 2020-21 school year might look like even if it’s just one year.

My analyzing fall would partly be about looking at cuts. Are there programs that got cut because of financial restraints caused by Covid? Those would likely be long term and not one year. Also, as for communication from the college, I would really only be looking at communication directly from the presidents of the universities and seeing how often they give updates. Some colleges have been very good at keeping students informed this spring - weekly messages, live town halls, etc. while some have been pretty lacking in that department.

Right now, schools are starting to communicate what’s up with housing and dining and how it will change. One school blew up fall housing and is starting over. Totally understandable. Will let kids write in up to six other students they’d like to be placed near if possible. This school requires living on campus for three years so it affects a lot of kids. It’s a huge project to organize. I’ll be curious how it goes. It says something about the school if they can get everyone into new rooms and still near friends. Another school just told hundreds of students who thought they had housing that they no longer have housing…and if you live off campus you won’t be allowed to have a dining plan anymore. Whoa. That’s not good. That school is not on D21’s list but it would be off if it was. And then there are schools who are small enough and nimble enough and knew to push off housing and registration and never did it in the spring. They will reveal their fall plans soon and then have students do housing and register once they set those both up to match their fall plan. That’s foresight and a college well run.

So looking at fall is also about seeing how the colleges perform in a crisis and not all about what their choices are necessarily. Communicating well, planning well, etc. Maybe some don’t think that stuff is important but we do.

38

Glad you clarified. Phew.

However, I still would not judge schools on this basis. Administrative confusion when the COVID crisis hit may not say a whole lot about the quality of the experience.

A lot of this is driven by money and liability.

The schools with large endowments can afford to keep campuses closed or do hybrid. If schools give students a choice, in whether to be on campus, on whether to do online or in person, they can avoid liability. Small schools and schools without large endowments can hardly afford to forego dorm and dining payments.

State schools are suffering due to loss of state revenues in general.

Top Ivies can do what they want for safety without fear of financial failure.

So if you want to make choices based on COVID response, I guess you would have to choose a wealthy school :slight_smile:

In an educational sense, online courses can be excellent. It is campus life that suffers.

I really hope that it is still okay to make these decisions based on the idea that long term, COVID won’t be with us, but none of us knows. I think it is an act of faith, maybe a leap, to make choices based on long term, but I hope it is possible for all rising seniors to go where they would want to go before this dystopian disaster hit us.

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I meant applying to 15-20 schools EA and RD and waiting until the last minute to pick a favorite. In normal years most kids apply to 5-8 schools with 1 or 2 favorites.

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We’re focusing on what they say that is defined, and ignoring the vague stuff. For dining we are looking at how many students can eat in the cafeteria and where specifically can the rest of the students eat? We’re not assuming anything.

It’s starting to feel like it will be tough to have those things defined before we write the check. For us the check is only room and board because tuition is covered by a merit scholarship. That makes the online education still of value, but we don’t want to pay for R and B for her to be sequestered in a dorm room.