4.0 small town chances for Brown, Pomona, Occidental [WA resident, political studies, pre-law, policy, music minor]

Chance Me / Match Me
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Demographics

  • US Citizen
  • Small town Washington state
  • Large public high school

Cost Constraints / Budget
Likely none (thank you Grandma)

Intended Major(s)
political studies, pre-law, policy, music minor

GPA, Rank, and Test Scores

  • Unweighted HS GPA: 4.0
  • Weighted HS GPA:
  • ACT/SAT Scores: hasn’t taken yet but practice testing at 1300ish - studying!!

List your HS coursework

(Indicate advanced level, such as AP, IB, AICE, A-level, or college, courses as well as specifics in each subject)

  • English: AP Lit 1+ course at running start
  • Math: on track for calculus senior year
  • Science: AP bio (but didn’t test), 1 semester chem, planning on physics senior year
  • History and social studies: AP human geo, AP History (tested 5), AP comp gov senior year
  • Language other than English: Spanish 3
  • Visual or performing arts: Local symphony, first chair violin high school orchestra and local youth orchestra, chamber choir, jazz choir, jazz band (violin),
  • Other academic courses: junior year mostly through Running Start at local community college

College Coursework (Transfer Applicants)
(Include college courses taken while in high school if not included above.)

  • General education course work: Spanish, pre-calc, English
  • Major preparation course work:

Awards

Winner Young Musicians Concerto Competition

Extracurriculars
Theater and musical theater(leading roles in school and community productions), ski instructor, junior advisory committee to city council, organizing youth wellness club, DECA, Hi-tones (women’s a capella quartert)

Essays/LORs/Other
*(Optionally, guess how strong these are and include any other relevant information or circumstances.)
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Notes: interested in social justice, environment, liberal Christian, natural leader, wants to do good in the world, but not set on one career path yet. Dedicated violinist, wants to continue to pursue music and theater, but probably not as a career focus. Wants to be somewhere welcoming, friendly, supportive, and ideally warm!

Schools
*(List of colleges by your initial chance estimate; designate if applying ED/EA/RD; if unsure, leave them unclassified)

Brown
Columbia
Pomona
Occidental
Pitzer
Scripps
Whitman
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Writing on behalf of my daughter - she’s afraid she’s not compettive at even Pitzer and Oxy, but I think she is?

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Curious as to why only 2 1/2 years of science. This will hinder her chances at most of these schools. Most want at least three and ideally 4 years of science. As an example, here is a direct quote from Pomona’s admission page:

“We recommend students complete four to five academic courses each term of high school, with four years of English, natural science and mathematics. We recommend two of those science courses are lab science and that students interested in STEM majors complete calculus. Additionally, we recommend three years each of foreign language and social science. However, these are not admission requirements but recommendations for the best preparation for Pomona’s curriculum.”

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So please understand we are all good citizens giving our best thoughts but we are not the decision makers for the schools:

Thanks for writing in. I’m more in line with your daughter - but a few thoughts/questions:

  1. Why no test in AB bio? If you have a low SAT, you want a test.
  2. Why one and not two semesters of Chem or why only 2.5 years of science (how many lab)

So a few things can hurt:

  1. The SAT Test
  2. Only Spanish 3

It’s too early to know but based on what you wrote and you can apply anywhere, I’d say:

No to Brown - test required - if she gets over 1500, then it opens more. From what I’m reading, she will lack in language and science, unless I’m mis interpreting what you wrote.

No to Columbia - where 61% submitted a test and is still TO I believe which helps. They recommend four years of science and language; require three. Will you have three years of science?

No to Pomona - better odds but if a school admits under 10%.

If she gets her testing up, then 1 or 2 of 3 of Occidental, Pitzer and Scripps becomes realistic.

Scripps had 40% submit tests with a 1450 at the 25th percentile.

Pitzer is test free.

Occidental had 28% submit and a 1400.

I’d guess Oxy would be an in - but let’s call it a target. They money helps but if you apply for aid, they won’t know about grandma - and yes you should apply for aid.

I think Whitman is safe. Their acceptance rate looks low but that’s because they only let in 247 of 3259 international. The domestic rate is quite high.

So let’s talk about law school. Any plan for it needs to include another $300K for budget. Does it?

If not, you need to find less expensive schools.

So here’s the thing about law school - look at Harvard, more than 160 colleges are represented in under 600 students. UVA has 309 students from 131 schools.

Yale more than 200 law schools in it’s last 5 first year classes of about 1K total. Penn over 200 in its law school.

The point - it doesn’t matter if it’s Brown or Boise State, Columbia or Central Washington, Pomona or U Portland - you can get to top law schools from all. Your GPA, your LSAT (so you need to be a strong test taker), what you do in school and for top schools today, what you do after school because fewer are going right away - that’s what matters, not where you go.

The stats belie this.

So why grandma is paying for school, who is for law school - because today, kids can spend $100K on college or spend $20-50K and get the same result.

Now it’s hard to say at 17, yes they will go to law school but at the same time, you have to prep for the possibilities.

Whitman will actually give you a pre-read. They will tell you before you apply what type of aid you will get.

But there are tons of LACs - great LACs - and tons that give lots and lots of merit because the world is competitive, and they need butts in seat.

If you like Brown for the more open curriculum, there are LACs that might be similar but not have merit (like Brown) - Amherst, Hamilton, Vassar, Smith (some merit), Grinnell (some merit) and perennial favorite Kalamazoo - fantastic merit - and so many more that aren’t open (like most your list).

Political Science and Public Policy are different in some ways and less schools have public policy so if you see the curriculum of both and like Policy over Poli Sci, that might help direct your list.

And most will have a DC semester, either on their own or through American U, and you might want to check your school’s potential offerings as well.

Just some things to noodle on.

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Congrats to your daughter for what seems like a terrific high school career. The music and theater activities look excellent!

Regarding the chances of getting into the schools on her list, to be blunt, with an SAT score of 1300ish it’s not going to happen anywhere that doesn’t allow TO. So the other possible weaknesses (number of years of science, Spanish, etc.) aren’t really going to even come into play because the SAT will be determinative. If she raises her SAT by 200 points, then some of those schools could become options, and you’ll want to think more about the mentioned weaknesses.

That said, she has clearly had a very successful high school career, and she sounds like a really cool kid. There will be many, many amazing options for her - you just need to look a tier or so lower in the rankings (or get her SAT score up by at least 200 points or more). Good luck!

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Thanks, these are good things for us to think about! She actually will have 3.5 or 4 years science. She did intro to chem/physics freshman year and I believe her senior physics will be a full year. She may be able to get through Spanish 4 with community college credits. Her high school does a terrible job advising college bound kids (most don’t try for schools like this) and then her school switched from a block schedule to a regular schedule and then we’ve been trying to combine running start with regular high school and yeah it sounds like I’m making excuses!

Appreciate your thoughts on the costs of law school as well.

Wondering if we should be looking at some less selective schools?

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What is intro chem/physics? Is that one class?

I wouldn’t force language, etc.

The reality is - schools like Columbia, Brown, and Pomona turn down perfect students, tons of rigors and 1550 SATs in bulk.

Nothing wrong with trying - but remember, the most important school on your list is the one that is assured or near assured, that she’ll love - and normally I’d say affordable but that may not matter in your case. Make sure grandma is covering $400K or $100K a year for four years.

Yes, that was the point of my message - yes - because other than Whitman, I see little - but that doesn’t mean she shouldn’t take her shots. But there’s many less selective - from schools in the West - like Puget Sound, Willamette to the East Coast - whether an Allegheny, Dickinson, Wheaton…..waaaaay too many to name.

Why not do a match me - basically share the items that are important to your student - and then sort of like a chance me, ask people to name schools. Is her interest - international or domestic politics - or policy (see curriculums below). Check with grandma on money and think about law school.

Some of your schools are bigger, some are small. Is there any size that doesn’t work, etc? Columbia is urban, Whitman isn’t…what’s the preference? School sports? Religion? Weather? That type of thing.

But before then - I’d look at curriculums - because if it’s policy she wants vs. politics, the # of possible schools will be less. But I put links for the 3 majors. The last link is the PPE concentrations at Richmond.

Take a look at that, talk to grandma about cost for four and seven years - and then - you’d be ready for a match me - but again, no issue with taking a shot higher (even if they’re near assured nos). And please explain the science - how many years and how many years are lab? I would not rush the language - you are who you are - and you will find tons of great schools.

Here’s some sample curriculums to noodle on:

Public Policy Undergraduate Major (BS, HBS) < Oregon State University

Majors | | Western Washington University

Major Requirements - PPEL - School of Arts & Sciences - University of Richmond

Concentrations - PPEL - School of Arts & Sciences - University of Richmond

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I believe I’m being pinged with notifications for this thread as I have a current student at Whitman (who also happens to be in a cappella!). @r25 You may want to consider deleting your photo from your profile to keep you and your daughter anonymous through this process :slight_smile:

Here are a two comments I’ve written regarding Whitman in other threads:

Here - in response to someone looking for the outdoors, along with a note about classes, etc.

Here - on the early financial/merit aid guarantee

You’re very lucky to have a grandmother who can contribute to costs, that’s wonderful! That said, echoing @tsbna44, you must find out what that tangibly means so that you are able to form a list of college options that are within the budget. Many, many, many grandparents these days have no idea how college costs have exponentially escalated, and many grandparents believe that their smart grandchildren will of course win a scholarship because that’s how it’s always worked.

Grandparents may be offering to “pay for college” but they just do not know that colleges can cost $400k these days, and their “smart” grandchildren do not necessarily get big scholarships/discounts. It’s just not how it works.

To give an example of the “discount” process: in my family’s instance, graduating debt free was a condition in making up my student’s college list; we didn’t qualify for need based aid, but there also was a finite budget. So this meant that if my student wanted to attend a LAC, they needed to pursue schools where they had a strong chance of good merit money. In a nutshell (and oversimplifying but not by much!): high merit awards are given at schools that are not highly rejective, to the students that are “high stats” for that particular school in comparison to their general student body.

So in my student’s case it meant schools such as Whitman and St. Olaf were on the list, for they would get a high merit award at each school based on their GPA and test scores, but Carleton was sadly crossed off the list, as Carleton doesn’t award merit, for it’s a highly rejective college and only awards need based aid. C’est la vie. In my student’s case it all worked out very well, for they received an amazing merit award at Whitman and it’s been a terrific fit for them, and they’re graduating without debt and with money leftover.

So…all that said, check in with grandmother so you are clear eyed when considering the costs for each school.

Then, as you and your daughter are making up your list of prospective schools, you’re seeking the sweet spot between the right academic fit, social fit, and financial fit. And, if grad school, law school, med school are part of the future plan….the financial fit should extend to considering those overall costs.

Finally, there is a fourth crucial variable to the academic/social/financial fit picture: likelihood of acceptance. Don’t make the mistake that so many students and families make at the beginning of this path: focusing on one or more “dream schools” and drawing up a list that is full of highly rejective schools, or schools that are a low likelihood of accepting your student, and then throwing in a couple of “safeties” that the student’s never visited, and would dread attending.

And remember not to take any of this personally! Being rejected from a highly rejective school is the normal result for almost all of their applicants. Being told that you have a low likelihood of being accepted at multiple places is no reflection on how great of a kid you are, it’s simply the math of it all.

Feel free to DM if you have any questions about Whitman that I might answer. We’re in the PNW as well :slight_smile:

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Yes, some universities are getting very close to $100,000 per year, and the trend is solidly upward in cost.

One nit to keep in mind when the time comes: at least if I understand the tax laws correctly, if the grandparent pays tuition directly to a university, this does not count in terms of gifts taxes and does not run into any gift tax issues. This also applies if parents are paying tuition on behalf of an adult student. For example this might come up if a student attends some form of graduate program.

For someone who is pre-law, saving some college funds to help with the cost of law school is also a good idea. Brand newly minted lawyers do not actually make the huge bucks, at least not at first. This is probably particularly true in some “public interest” roles.

And I also noticed that the schools on the list differ in size and location. I see quite a few smaller schools on the list, which makes me wonder whether or not Columbia would also be a good fit.

It might be a good idea to visit some schools. We started with universities that were close to home just to save on travel effort, but did end up visiting some schools that required staying overnight near the college or university. We did some of this before applying, and some more after acceptances were in. This can be quite helpful, for example in deciding between large versus small schools, or in deciding between rural and suburban and small town locations. This might also help a student find a school where they just feel comfortable for whatever reasons.

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The most open curriculum college is a Washington public, The Evergreen State College. But the courses and curriculum may seem to be a bit too unorganized, since there are not even majors, and some subjects’ courses appear to be a collection of topical courses but not the “subject core” courses that would be found at colleges with majors in the subjects. See Undergraduate Catalog | The Evergreen State College (political science and political economy courses are listed at Undergraduate Catalog | The Evergreen State College ).

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How many AP classes does your school offer? If the school offers multiple AP classes and you only take five or six, that could be a red flag. Only submitting one AP test result could also be a red flag.

As others have stated, the 1300 SAT is going to be an obstacle.

You probably have a good shot at many of the schools on your list but not Brown or Columbia unless you have more AP tests with good scores and a higher SAT.