Adult children dating - different faiths and races

@uskoolfish, I have a question for you… do you/have you/would you invite non-Jews to a child’s bar/bat mitzvah? Because I and my kids, as Christians, have been to several. I have a Christian friend from my church whose daughter went to a public high school with a large Jewish population, and by her calculations she went to more than 30! Her mother’s rule was that she had to attend the service at the synagogue if she wanted to go to the party, because the sacred part was the reason FOR the party. When we non-Jews attend a Jewish service or celebration of course we are aware of our non-Jewishisness, but that doesn’t prevent us from enjoying the unique experience and sharing in joy with the family. I mentioned upthread that I have participated in Seders and Hanukkah gatherings, and my practicing Christian D has been attending Hillel events including Shabbat at college. These things enrich us and bring us closer to our Jewish friends as we learn about the traditions that are important to them.

Christmas Day in our family (and most families, I would venture) is not religious at all; we worship on Christmas Eve at church (when/where the nativity story is retold) and then Christmas Day is all about being present with family. “Family” would mean anyone who we invited to join us, and we would welcome friends and family of any faith. The only prayer we say is the blessing before the meal, which would be appropriately tailored for whoever is at table with us, as it is at Thanksgiving. If an invited guest offered to bring brisket or kugel or latkes or any other ethnic or vegetarian food they enjoy to add to the festivities, I would be thrilled!

If my Jewish friends want to invite me to share in their faith celebrations, then I would hope they would not shun a similar opportunity to experience a Christian celebration because it’s “uncomfortable”.

Good post, Emilybee.

A good friend of my kids came to our house for Christmas Eve a couple years ago. His parents are Orthodox; I don’t think he follows that, but he is definitely an observant Jew. He also brought his 5 year old daughter. He’s divorced; his wife converted and the D is being raised Jewish. Here’s things we did: we had dinner–I don’t serve ham anymore, and he seemed comfortable with what we ate. We exchanged presents. We talked and laughed and enjoyed each others’ company. His D was pretty much the center of attention. Cute kid!

Somehow we resisted the impulse to pray, proselytize, or otherwise make them uncomfortable. /sarcasm.

Perhaps I’m missing something. I thought Native American was a race and Judaism was a religion, so a person is either Native American by birth or they’re not, but anyone can be Jewish.

If the whole point of the thread is how to keep the Jewish culture from dying out, why not actively try to increase the numbers? There are several local religious organizations who work diligently to do just that by going door to door, hosting summer religious day camps, and inviting community members to special services and retreats. I don’t know how many converts they get, but they must get some because they keep doing it. That seems like a better option than creating a wedge between yourself and your children’s families.

What about weddings? D was married recently, wedding was not in a church but the ceremony was performed by an Episcopal priest and was definitely a Christian wedding ceremony. Several Jewish and Muslim friends/family members were present as well as at least one atheist. If anyone had an issue with this, I didn’t hear about it.

too late to edit my comment above, but I wanted to add:

I don’t get why the food being served would be the center of discomfort anyway. Surely people who have dietary restrictions, whether religious, ethical, health, or otherwise, frequently join meals where they can’t eat some of the foods available.

That tiny jewish population is 14 million. Native american population all tribes combined, 5 million. Actually, that tiny jewish population is bigger than populations of Norway, Finland, or Sweden, and only slightly samller than all three scandinavian countries combined, at 5 million, 5 million, 9 million, respectively.

“Perhaps I’m missing something. I thought Native American was a race and Judaism was a religion, so a person is either Native American by birth or they’re not, but anyone can be Jewish.”

Yes, you are missing something that’s been discussed several times. People are born Jews, as they are born Native American. Jews do not proselytize. There are Jewish converts, but they seek out membership, not the other way around. Jews believe that only Jews are supposed to follow our rules; what other people do is none of Jews’ business. (I’m not religious, but this is one of my favorite principles in our tradition.)

@iglooo, why are you trying to set up some kind of hierarchy of vulnerability? There’s been a lot of genocide and cultural destruction in human history; can’t each group have its own ideas about preservation and restoration? If Jews care about their own tradition, does that take anything away from the Lakota?

I think it’s more accurate to say these are secular trappings to a holiday which, ultimately, is still a religious one. Snowmen and ornaments and such may not be Bible-based, but they’re not strictly seasonal, either. We’re not randomly putting out Santas and tinsel and mercury-glass balls in February, and snowmen…well, I’ll concede the point for Northerners, but they’re not a general part of winter in Miami or Corpus Christi or Savannah. (I’ll also give you the fairy lights, which generally are a year 'round thing in a lot of places.)

Holly, Ivy and Yule logs are strongly Pagan-- but most American Pagans don’t celebrate on the 25th of December.

When most of us invite someone to our homes, we respect differences and preferences. So no, I wouldn’t put ham on the table, if my guest is Orthodox.

What we have to reiterate, for some reason, is that yes, the dominant religions in the US are Christian. And the culture is predominantly influenced by that. But not all Christians are into prayers and Praise the Lord or treat Christmas as Christ’s birthday (it’s disputed, anyway) or take everything literally. Lots don’t go to church, even if they baptize their kids or want them married in a church.

Just as Jews use their religious ethics as guidelines, so do many Christians (and others.) That’s about leading a respectable and caring life, per your principles. That doesn’t make, say, Christmas, overbearing. For many families, it’s a children’s holiday, first. If you’re invited to dinner, if you like those folks and feel your own identity and choices are respected, make your own best decision. If your friends are good people, they will make you comfortable. Exactly as, when we are invited to Seder, you make us comfortable.

All that’s different than marriage, I know.

Most Christians will not understand the deep emotions that can go with a Jewish heritage, because they are simply unaware of the centuries of exclusion and ongoing persecutions that Jews sometimes deal with, and the emotional scars of the Holocaust. They don’t know about the rather recent exclusion of Jews from universities, Greek organizations, country clubs, etc. I certainly was clueless until I became close to many Jewish people, including Orthodox Jews and Holocaust survivors, and studied the issues.

When Christians travel to Europe, they see beauty in the old churches and cities. When Jews travel to Europe, they see Jewish ghettos where their ancestors were secluded, and sculptures of Jews being crushed, and paintings of Jews at the stake, etc. Christians also do not understand the (faith-based or self-imposed) restrictions placed on Jews to not go into Christian places and services, or the emotions that go with Christian-based national holidays that simply bring to mind all of the history of Christian abuse of Jews.

Personally, I love mixing of faiths and races, and learning about other perspectives and lifestyles. But for those who want to preserve through marriage a heritage and lifestyle or race – or even socioeconomic status or regional values – there can be arguments that support that. Centuries of arranged marriages in pretty much all cultures around the world attest to the reality that marriage affects more than the couple alone – it is a family issue, and everyone is affected.

That said, this is the year 2015, and your sons can and will do what they want to do. I would suggest having some talks with them to explain your feelings and perspectives, and what benefits there are to them (not you) if they marry someone Jewish. If they are not convinced by persuasion and they marry non-Jews, then I would recommend you develop an open mind and embrace the new situation. That would be for your own emotional well-being and to preserve the ties with your children and protect their emotional well-being.

If the Christian in-laws have your son over for lunch on Sunday, there is nothing stopping you from having your son and his family over for Shabbat on Friday. You can keep your religion, and invite your sons and their future families to participate with you as much as possible. Isn’t that preferable to harboring resentment and pain and creating divisions? Who knows – their non-Jewish spouses may just convert, and then you would have Jewish grandchildren after all. But if they only see Jewishness as a source of contention, they will stay far from it, and possibly far from you as well.

I have been following this thread with a lot of interest, wondering whether I had anything to contribute. It’s very relevant to me: Both kids have long-term SOs who are very much not Jewish, both are clearly contemplating marriage, and both are old enough so that’s a reasonable thing to do. One won’t move so fast, but the other would already be married if everything was up to him. Both SOs, like my children, are members of large, extended families to which they are close. In all cases, religious identity is a significant part of the family relationships, although less so in our family.

I was raised as a Jew, although not an orthodox one. My father was anti-religious in general, but he never contemplated marrying a non-Jew. My mother cared very much about her Judaism, although beyond her family her social circles were always primarily WASPy. My sisters and I were brought up with the expectation that we would marry Jews, but it was not heavy-handed. In any event, I cared about having my children be Jewish. Like many in my generation, I think, I felt a need not to be a party to the Shoah, not to continue the work of the Nazis and the Inquisitors by letting the Jewish People wither and die.

From within Christianity, religion is a personal, individual choice, and it makes eminent sense to say, “It’s his (or her) life, let him live it as he chooses.” That is not the paradigm in Judaism; it is older, much more communitarian and tribal. From within Judaism, no one chooses to be a Jew. One is born part of the Jewish People, and one’s choices are only to associate with other Jews or not, to obey the commandments or not. (Traditional Judaism has a lot of trouble with the concept of conversion. Far from being a matter of choice, the rabbinic theory supporting conversion is more or less the theory supporting sex-change operations: you determine that somehow a Jewish soul got trapped in the body of a non-Jew by accident, and then you correct the injustice by recognizing the person as a Jew. There is an actual rabbinic court proceeding for that.) A great deal of Jewish religious practice can only occur in the context of an active Jewish community. While there is a tradition of individual prayer and study, many rituals as basic as saying Kaddish for a dead parent or spouse requires a minyan of 10 adults (males, if you are traditional).

If the Jewish People does not reproduce itself, there will be no more Jews. There’s no way consistent with the religion to expand the number of Jews except to give birth to them and raise them. Almost seventy-five years after the Shoah, the Jewish population remains much smaller than it was before the Nazi campaign.

My four Jewish grandparents had five children and twelve grandchildren among them, nine of whom were raised as Jews. Of those nine, only two married other Jews (and mine is the only such marriage that lasted more than a couple of years). One other married a woman who converted, and one of my Episcopalian cousins married (and divorced) a Jewish woman. In our children’s generation, only half have been raised as Jews, and if my kids marry their SOs, the marriage rate with Jews in their generation will be at one in six, and counting. My wife’s family is similar. Her grandparents have only four Jewish great-grandchildren, counting our children, and there could easily be no Jewish children in the generation to come.

I love and respect my children, and they are doing what I raised them to do, which is to make their own choices. There’s no question of freezing anyone out. I am a big fan of both potential children-in-law. I would not say what I have said here to my children or their partners. And this post gives a misleading impression of what I actually feel – yes, I have moments of feeling guilty and sad about my family’s losing its connection with the Jewish People over four generations (and angry that this leaves the field of defining Judaism to the ultra-orthodox, with whom I have many fundamental disagreements). But I am also happy with the choices they are making, and proud of them.

“From within Christianity, religion is a personal, individual choice”

Even within Christianity, that’s a fairly recent, Protestant idea. Catholics/Orthodox Christians are baptized as infants, and for most of Christian history in Europe, there wasn’t any choice for anybody.

That’s true, but Catholicism has always been open – indeed, usually enthusiastic to a fault in “encouraging,” sometimes at swordpoint or worse – those not born Catholics to accept baptism and adopt Catholicism. And they have been much more willing than Jews historically to exclude community members for lapses in ideological correctness. Your cradle baptism is not a lifetime pass.

We do invite non Jewish friends to Passover and bar mitzvahs. When the kids were little I used to have a big Hanukah party and an invitation was highly sought. Of course, most of the guests were not Jewish. We explain the foods and customs as we go along.

I do attend Christmas meals, go to Christian funerals, weddings, etc, when invited. I do it to support my friends. Do I ever feel weird? Well, yes, sometimes I do. If there is an interlude during which there is a lot of talk about Christianity being the only path, it is uncomfortable. When I was young I used to dread it, now I kind of know when or if it will happen and just let it happen.

I suggest it is different to experience these occasions as a minority than as a majority. The non Jews at my holidays can be anthropologists and learn about my customs during a discrete period of time. I am the odd man out all the time. (Before anybody takes this wrong, my non Jewish friends have always been wonderful and I enjoy having them share our holidays. And I want to spend time with them during their events. Hey, I have Republican friends, too!)

Valuebird, your feelings are your feelings. Worthwhile confronting and acknowledging them, better to figure this out now before you are faced with the situation. You aren’t going to ignore your grands over this.

That was well-said, as usual, JHS.

I think that most posters here understand that aspect, and the ambivalence you express. It would be presumptuous of me, or anyone, really, to question its importance.

For me, and a lot of posters, the only things I felt entitled to question were, first, attitudes about grandchildren, once they appear (which I question from a wannabe, mightnotbe (sadly), grandparent and generally human point of view.)

And then second, the conceptions of how people celebrate Christmas and share that and other family occasions with others–the parameters of human fellowship.

You don’t choose to be born Irish Catholic either. It’s true Christianity allows some movement and that conversion (or at least moving to a new church/faith practice) can be pretty easy, depending. But there are still deep rooted identities. That Irish Catholic who decides Baptist is a better fit can still identity his cultural influences and history running back generations. (None of this is as simple as where you worship.) And in my great grandparents’ town (in the US,) when my mother was growing up, there was a radical divide among the Polish Catholics, Italian Catholics, the Eastern Catholics- and, even when they immigrated from the same regions, between the Eastern Catholics and Russian Orthodox. They all worshiped along the same Christian lines, with differences in details only, but their identities came from their family histories, origins, and trials, as well.

I wonder how much of that is due to bitter historical memories of the Jewish people being discriminated against, persecuted, and murdered en masse by the dominant Christian majority for centuries back in Europe and to some extent…in the US(i.e. non-Jewish White anti-semites and racist/anti-Semitic groups like the KKK)?

If that’s a factor, it’s one I can perfectly understand and even be sympathetic to on some levels considering I know some relatives and families of classmates/colleagues/friends who still have serious issues accepting their younger generations’ interest or enthusiasm for anything Japanese or German…including dates/SOs/fiances because of bitter wartime memories where the relatives/families were the victimized parties.

With my extended family, it caused unease and tension among the parents and some older relatives when an older cousin wanted to marry a fourth generation Japanese-American.

With other families from countries occupied by Imperial Japan or Nazi Germany, it extended to buying Japanese or German made products or even expressing any interest in Japanese/German culture. The latter two was something many Asian-American friends and a few American friends* had to deal with their own parents/grandparents when their interest in Japanese animation or studies came up. Some had to go so far as to hide their interests from their parents/grandparents and have us friends facilitate that.

Heck, even I felt some of this guilt over my interests own interest in Japanese history/politics** and cultural items including literature and animation due to the knowledge of what my parents witnessed and experienced during the Japanese invasion/occupation during the war. And this was despite the fact they were actually quite supportive despite some grumblings from some aunts and uncles.

  • One American classmate whose WWII veteran older relative who was so outraged at what he saw while liberating a concentration camp that he refused to have anything to do with German products, culture, or approve of his children/grandchildren marrying Germans.

** Intertwined with interests in Chinese history/politics.

I hope people realize that not all Jewish people keep kosher and we eat bacon, ham, shellfish, etc. There are even those who keep kosher in their home but not when eating out.

At my rehearsal dinner my Catholic MIL wanted to have ham as one of the choices, so she consulted with my mom who said, “that would be wonderful - Jack (my dad) loves ham!”

My Mil was very surprised how many of my relatives ordered the ham.

Iirc, Bevhill served pork ribs at the rehearsal dinner for her son and DIL.

@lookingforward Of course I understand the historical importance of ethnicity within Catholicism, not to mention Christianity in general. The same is true for Jews: when my grandparents were young, Sephardic Jews rarely married non-Sephardic Jews, German Jews didn’t marry Eastern European Jews, and even among the latter people cared about the difference between Litvaks and Galitzianers. Divisions among Hasidic sects can still be the occasion for violence. You can’t understand Israeli politics without paying attention to ethnicity. But . . . for the most part, certainly in the U.S., that horse left the barn long ago in terms of people thinking it really mattered. The Church is systematically dismantling its ethnicity-based parish system, and the world is full of Irish-Italian, Polish-Irish, Italian-Polish, and Latino-Everything families. Ethnicity is still a line, but it’s not a line that’s hard to cross.

(Ethnicity plus race is perhaps still a meaningful line to some, as a practical matter. However, I don’t think you are going to find many people here to argue that race should be a meaningful line, that there’s something fundamentally wrong with miscegenation.)

Well, I don’t know about other sects, but any Catholic can baptize a baby. I let my mother baptize my S in the kitchen sink, because it meant something to her. I reject the concept of original sin, so to me the important ceremony was the child dedication at my UU church. So maybe your S and DIL will let you baptize their children. :slight_smile:

@uskoolfish, The Jewish couple I’ve mentioned in this thread where the wife was a convert joined us for Christmas dinner and Easter for years. Because the H didn’t eat pork, I never served it. One year I finally decided to cook ham braised in Madiera sauce with duxelles–Mastering the Art of French Cooking, I can’t recommend it too highly!–and I made something else for him, which he was fine with. We had other friends who were much more observant and kept a kosher home. When out of the home, they ate kosher style. When they came over, I always made a dairy meal. When I’m entertaining one of my Jewish friends who doesn’t eat pork, I simply don’t serve it. I can’t imagine inviting someone over and not serving food they could eat, whatever the reason.

Oh, and I have been to seders at their house. They actually believe the Passover story. I don’t. But we can join in celebrating the tradition with them. (BTW, I don’t “believe in” the Nativity story either, at least not in any literal way. :slight_smile: )