I completely understand feeling uncomfortable when weddings, baptisms, and funerals get going on the Christian theology. The frequently-uttered sentiment of officiants that “we are all Christians/Catholics” is what gets me. Especially at weddings and funerals, where the officiant has to know that the congregation probably has MANY members who are not.
But it varies. The funeral of a dear friend was turned into something all about the officiant, who was a highly self-regarding charismatic priest. The wedding of one of my nieces, on the other hand, was very personal and ecumenical, conducted by a really nice priest (who later came out as gay).
DW is a non-practicing Christian. I am an atheist. DD is an atheist, and so is her girlfriend. I can imagine her getting involved with someone who is religious in name only, but I would be shocked if she did so with someone who is devoutly anything — except maybe Buddhist. It would not cause a row in the family, but if DD started believing in a deity, I would wonder had happened.
We live deep in the heart of Mormon country. In high school, DD had a boyfriend for a while whose family did not want him dating a non-Mormon. They hung out in places like the pioneer cemetery on the edge of town. I was glad when that ended.
My husband and I are of different races, nationalities, languages, cultures and religious background and we have always lived together in a third country. Still going strong for over two decades. I realize that we were extremely lucky to have the two sets of parents and extended families we have. They recognized that all these differences were significant but also gave us enough credit to figure things out. Not a single relative has ever expressed anything but love, well wishes and strong support for us and our children.
My husband and I discussed these differences and what they would mean for our potential children before fully committing to each other. In practical terms it means that our children are fluent in my mother tongue but not his because it was very important to me but not to him. It means that we expose our children to both cultural norms and celebrations as much as possible and that we seek friendships within both groups.
As far as religion is concerned, it helped that neither of us had strong religious leanings and were sensitive to each other’s family’s concerns. Our children have been baptized as infants, have been taught the main Catholic teachings and participate in some celebrations. They have also been exposed to Hindu teachings and also participate in some celebrations. To be honest, my husband is completely uninterested in anything to do with religion, so everything our kids have learned was from me and other family members that helped along the way. I have to say I just love my sister in law in particular for taking her nieces under her wings in this respect. I always presented the information as “This is what Catholics/Christians/Hindus etc believe or celebrate”. One of our children has never shown much interest in exploring further, the other one did and we supported that. Both extended families have happily participated in all the various religious celebrations and rituals of either faith and for that I am very grateful.
Just a few days ago, a coworker who was the first generation immigrant from China said something “bad” about Japanese-Americans in the context of marriage between Japanese-Americans and other Asian-Americans. What he said is that because Japan had industrial revolution ahead of other countries in Asian, people from Japan tend to think they are “above” other Asians. He was indeed from the geological area in China where Chinese were oppressed by Japanese’s “war machine” prior to and during WWII. Not sure whether his children shared the same stereotype.
@emilybee --yes, I do know that. I was discussing food because upthread someone had characterized reasons to not share a Christmas dinner–the possibility of ham or seafood.
JHS, we agree roots run deep and identity and its emotions are complex. I also know how ritual reinforces. What I was sensitive to, oddly enough, was the lumping together of all “Christians” and blanket statements. And my attitude about principles and ethics, despite all the factors that affect us, ultimately extends to how people actually live their principles, not what they call themselves or how they view their history. We’re all complex.
My father marrying my mother was one barrier to a relationship with my paternal grandparents. They were historically and culturally Slavic Jews, non practicing, no nothing, except the identity. That’s different, to me, than people who live their lives immersed.
That stereotype has a grain of truth to it from what I’ve experienced and found from studying modern Chinese and Japanese history.
However, this is mainly applicable to the minority who are part of the Japanese extreme right wing who are apologists for Japanese imperial militarism/colonialism from older generations of native-born Japanese and to some extent, some children/grand-children/younger generations who sympathize/share their views such as the current PM whose grandfather was an indicted Class A war criminal for his role as a senior colonial administrator in the Japanese controlled puppet state of “Manchukuo”(Manchuria) during the war.
That stereotype isn’t nearly as strong with the younger generations. Moreover, from what I’ve known about the vast majority within the subset of Japanese(or others) who harbor “superiority” attitudes regarding their own race/ethnicity versus other Asians or anyone else deemed “inferior”…the ones with such attitudes would never consider such marriage prospects. That would not only go against their own attitudes/ideology, but also usually result in their being ostracized from likeminded peers.
Wouldn’t be too different from say…an American/European White Protestant supremacist who decided to marry someone who was non-White or a non-protestant like someone who was Catholic or Jewish.
The problem is as I read it, that preservation argument is being used to justify discrimination against other people in marriage, that jews have a right/reason to not welcome nonjews to their family. While everyone else is trying hard to be open and adapt to the new and more open society, jews say wait we don’t need to pull our weight because we have to preserve. It contributes to fragmentation of the society. But whatever, go ahed and preserve. I’ll help you preserve by advising my non-jewish D not to date a jew. When my D brings a boy home, my first question will be Are you jewish?
If people are born Jews and OP is Jewish, why wouldn’t OP’s grandchildren also be Jewish?
My SIL married a man who is Jewish. My understanding from her is that her son is not considered Jewish because Judaism is dependent on the mother. This could be wrong, though … so others can feel free to correct this, if it is incorrect. But if it’s right, OP did say something about her “son” … so that may be the reason.
My D will most likely marry her long-time BF, who is from another culture and another faith. The faith part isn’t such a big thing in this case, as both are Christian … just some differences due to the denominations. They attend a church that is a different denomination than their childhood churches, but will probably marry in his church because it’s a much bigger deal for his mom than it is for us (especially since H and I married in a Catholic church to appease my parents, even though I had switched denominations). The culture part is the bigger issue for D and BF. His family is middle eastern; he was born in their home country and came to the U.S. at 7. He does not have friends that are part of his culture, but his family is who they are. They are a wonderful family, but their holiday traditions are different, and other things are different … like the fact that elderly parents don’t live on their own (something I am glad they are realizing/discussing in advance of marriage). D know about “different” from my in laws, though … MIL is a banker’s daughter from a New England family that his been in the U.S. since soon after the Mayflower arrived; FIL is the son of a Hungarian immigrant who lived in the Hungarian area in the south side of Chicago, across from the stockyards. They have been happily married for 65 years, so D knows that different backgrounds don’t doom a relationship.
S is an atheist, and if he does marry (says he won’t), it will most certainly not be to a religious woman. That’s a big deal to him.
Years after my grandmother died, I found out that she had told everyone my H was Jewish. It was not cool in her circle of friends, all Catholic, for me to have married a Jewish guy … but it was much, much worse that he was Hungarian. Apparently, Slovaks and Hungarians did not get along in the Old Country. She expressed her disappointment in my choice of men by making up a religious difference rather than telling the “awful truth.”
It depends.
Genetically, you can be Jewish (for example- Ashkenazi Jew) without practicing a single Jewish custom raises hand
However, Judiasm as a religion (at least, for all the branches I know of), is passed down through the mom. So in my family, since my Jewish grandmother only had boys, Judiasm in our line would stop with them unless they married Jewish women.
The concept of “discrimination” doesn’t apply when you’re choosing a marriage partner. There is no obligation of fairness. There isn’t even any such thing as fairness in this context. It’s 100% about personal taste. I really hope no one would marry me thinking, “I can’t stand Hanna’s curly hair, but it’s not fair to hold that against her, so I’ll marry her anyway.” Anybody who likes straight hair should find another girl.
That said, if you believe that this is discrimination and wrong, then it would be wrong whether there were 15 million Jews left or 10. Bigotry, if that’s what you think you’re seeing, doesn’t suddenly become morally OK because the stakes are higher.
If we’re talking about parents watching their children choose, exactly no one on the thread has defended unwelcoming actions toward new children-in-law, much less grandchildren. Some have admitted preferences and feelings – which, by the way, I don’t personally share, I just understand. They hope not to act on them. It’s not exactly a “whites only” water fountain.
“While everyone else is trying hard to be open and adapt to the new and more open society, jews say”
OH REALLY? Jews are alone in this? “Everyone else” is trying hard to be open to, say, a Muslim Nigerian son-in-law? Do tell.
Kelsmom, it was a catastrophe when one of my great aunts married a Hungarian, too. I guess my great grandmother remembered the days of the Austro-Hungarian empire. Then they joined the Russian Orthodox church in town. This great aunt spent the next 60 years trying to dealing with her mother’s reaction. Her husband was a doll, a good man, one of my favorites. Their church was welcoming. She’s the one, btw, who borrowed me when I was a few months old, to have me baptized.
Lots of interesting discussion. To comment on a few topics that have come up:
I am very comfortable attending my non-Jewish friends’ celebrations - including Christenings and a Christmas open house. Funerals too. I respect their customs and find them interesting. My sons invited their non-Jewish friends to their Bar Mitzvahs, as did DH and I. Nothing wrong with experiencing other cultures and religions.
The idea that Judaism is matrilineal is a fairly old-fashioned notion. If my son marries a non-Jewish girl, my opinion is that my grandchildren are still half Jewish, but it is how they are raised that is of concern.
Jewish boys have a bris as newborns, typically at 8 days old. Families often have a naming ceremony at their synogogue for infant girls. I would be very sad if that did not take place. A Christening or other Christian ceremony - I would not attend - and then the division that I fear really begins.
I do understand that it is a two-way street and some would not want their non-Jewish daughter marrying a Jewish man, knowing that issues of religious conflict may surface. That’s fine with me. I would tend to worry that some family members would not be welcoming to my Jewish son. Yet another reason to avoid the situation in the first place.
“Jewish boys have a bris as newborns, typically at 8 days old. Families often have a naming ceremony at their synogogue for infant girls. I would be very sad if that did not take place. A Christening or other Christian ceremony - I would not attend - and then the division that I fear really begin.”
I really hope you would reconsider if the time ever comes. My cousin’s D who is married to a non Jew had a b’rit bat and not only did his parents come but so did his extended family. His dad also gave a lovely toast to his DIL and son and talked about how thrilled they were to be first time grandparents.
I just don’t understand how any grandparent could treat their children and grandchildren so disrespectsbly.
" A Christening or other Christian ceremony - I would not attend"
I believe that would be an awful mistake. Unless you think your lack of attendance would change their minds – which you clearly don’t think – then I can’t see why you wouldn’t go. I don’t get the sense that you believe they’re hurting the child and you would be complicit in that abuse by attending.
I agree that you shouldn’t attend if you were unable to act appropriately and congratulate the parents, but you’d have plenty of time to prepare and practice gritting your teeth and smiling.
Wouldn’t you hope the in-laws would come to a bris, with love for family and in respect for your values? And hope they would take some delight in being part of your tradition? What if they said, I won’t set foot there? Wouldn’t you consider that divisive? And feel like it was purposefully so?
It’s hard to see these lines drawn. With respect, WTH if you sit in a church and smile? it’s not even symbolic of some loss on your part or diluting your own traditions.
This doesn’t make any sense to me. A ceremony is about the person involved, not the viewer.
And, once again, as the grandchild of a person who made everything about her and chose to cut me out of her life because I wasn’t the same religion, let me tell you that I really view it as unforgivable to punish the kids for something the parents choose to do. I will never, ever forgive my grandmother for letting religion get in the way of her being a grandmother to me. She was not invited to my wedding and she will never know any of her great-grandchildren.
^ same here about the divide. The action of two parents who attend a ceremony across religious or cultural lines is not what threatens their heritage, as a whole. You aren’t singlehandedly towing some boat back into port, saving all aboard. Your own ties to the next generation will determine how your faith and identity have impact.
in my mother’s day, those Italian Catholics in the town weren’t even allowed by their priest to go to a freaking wedding at another church, because it would be seen as somehow endorsing a false ritual. We look back and see how limiting that was. Now we need to look forward.