I agree that the ceremony is about the person involved, not the viewer. I have been invited to and attended numerous rites and ceremonies associated with other religions. I can assure you my presence didn’t hurt them or me. The temple didn’t catch on fire, the pulpit didn’t quake. I didn’t become any less steadfast in my beliefs. I simply gave my unconditional love and support to those celebrating an event that was important to them. Certainly family members owe that to each other.
@emilybee:
When my parents were growing up in NYC (this would be the 1930’s-40’s), there was an old joke that you could tell a Jewish neighborhood, they had the most number of chinese restaurants! smile. Back then because many of them were immigrants from Europe, they often still followed the rules about eating Kosher, the rules on the sabbath. Anyway, the joke was that the chinese restaurants served the need for sweet and sour shrimp and roast pork lol.
I would and have not felt uncomfortable with adult children dating different faiths and races.
When I was in 2nd grade I went to my teacher’s wedding in a protestant church. I was raised catholic and at that time you had to get permission from the bishop or something like that to attend a ceremony in a church other than catholic one. Well that was not going to happen in my tiny town. I consciously remember thinking- how could God think this was bad? I went and felt really good about it. It was the first time I had been in another church. I have in my life gone to many different houses of worship, and I mean very diverse ones. I felt comfortable in all of them. To me they were all spiritual.
@rockvillemom, being baptized, if it were to happen, isn’t going to make your grandchildren Christians. What if a hypothetical grandson has a bris AND a christening? It may be possible.
My sister, who rejected Catholicism and feels very negative about it, ironically has two Ds who have married Catholics. Their level of practice and background differs widely, but all of the children have been baptized Catholic even though the mothers aren’t. I attended one of the baptisms, and my sister was barely able to contain her negative feelings. Thankfully, the third D married a Jew, so she was spared the baptism (and the bris, since both of their kids are girls 
). Whether any of those kids grows up to be a practicing Catholic, or even consider themselves Catholic, is an open question.
To me, the concept of original sin is repugnant, Satan is nonsense, and so the religious aspect of the whole thing is meaningless. Nevertheless, I manage to sit there and congratulate the parents when appropriate. I can’t imagine getting on my high horse and refusing to go because I’m an atheist. (I manage to restrain myself from engaging in theological debate, LOL.) I do not think your attendance would be viewed as an endorsement of any theology. I do think that your absence would be viewed as a deliberate slight.
My g/f use to say she’d disown her son’s if they didn’t marry Jewish women. I told her that was ridiculous, as they didn’t even attend Sunday school, let alone live in a house with any Jewish rituals, other than food.
I thought role modeling was appropriate. Our house was kosher, son went to a jewish day school, we rotated Shabbat dinners with friends and families, Jewish overnight camps, etc. son went to Hillel, where he met nice guys but no females. He did the birthright trip. Still, his s/0 is another race and religion. I welcome her with open arms. She has met my closest friends and family, and everyone adores her.
Side note, JHS’s post hit home for me.
My MIL & FIL were Taoists but smilingly attended our kids’ baptisms because it we lovingly invited them and they wanted to have loving roles in our lives and the lives of our kids. The baptisms were followed by lovely lunches that were attended by them as well as my extended family. Many of my in-laws (BILs and SILs) were not Catholics when they married my sibs (we were all raised Catholic), but they allowed all children to be baptised and attend Sunday School. Several converted. All in-laws (including extended families) attended all baptisms of all the nieces and newphews.
It would have been sad not having extended family present, as it was a joyous celebration. As far as I know, none of the in-laws families had major issues with attending, or even when some of their kids decided to convert to Catholicism. I am happy and relieved that I and all my sibs have good relationships with all of our in-laws, regardless of race or religion.
Rockvillemom, you have explained your point of view very well, and I certainly sympathize. However, in my extended family, there have been repercussions for four generations now, as a result of my grandmother refusing to attend rituals and ceremonies that were not her own. She negatively impacted the lives of her great-great-grandchildren. I am positive that was never her intent. In her eyes her behavior was absolutely correct, (and perhaps it was) but she divided her family in a most unfortunate manner and perhaps for all time. That can’t possible be a good thing.
A poster up-thread referenced “nation in diaspora,” which triggered a few thoughts about the Chinese racial diaspora for me. I am ethnic Chinese, but born in Vietnam. This is not unusual. There are many overseas-born Chinese (OBC is what we call them), who share race but not culture with other Han Chinese. While some of the Chinese diaspora has not assimilated well in other countries (Indonesia of late is a great example), among the many that have been integrated into the native cultures, the Han racial identity remains strong nonetheless. When asked, I still identify myself as Chinese American, not Vietnamese American, for example. And likewise, I know a number of OBCs from Indonesia, Malaysia, even south America, who identify as Chinese-American even though they’ve never step foot in China.
With that in mind, I wonder if the Jewish identity, at least the culture part of it, may be more healthy/resistant than the numbers indicate. I assume that the culture part and the race part is hard to “lose” – much harder than say, the practice of the faith. Maybe I’m just an optimist… Another anecdote that reinforces my optimism: there is a long-lasting surge of nonChristmas merchandise in retail – Hanukah as well as other winter holidays – and I think that trend elevates and preserves the relevance of cultural Judaism. I have been in the home of recent Asian immigrants who did not know the distinction among various decor items – and who displayed both Christmas and Hanukah items together because it is “American.” So, from the perspective of a third party who is neither Jewish nor Christian, the legitimacy of both is equally embraced when trying to assimilate into American culture. In this sense, cultural assimilation benefits Judaism.
One thing the overseas Chinese have learned (one can argue we’re still learning) is that cultural assimilation creates a necessary bond with the native populations. Historically, the diaspora has been much more successful where cultural assimilation took root (e.g. Vietnam) than in countries where the Chinese kept to themselves (married themselves, conducted business only with themselves) such as Indonesia. By “success,” I mean that the Chinese suffered much less social discrimination and vandalism to their businesses, violence…etc.
I just have no idea. Attending my hypothetical grandchild’s christening would be an endorsement of it. I think it would be hypocritical on my part.
I am just going to enjoy the fact that this dilemna is still a few years away for now. I have very mixed thoughts on the whole topic, ranging from live and let live to feeling that I have to respect the values of generations past. Very caught between the past and the future. Not entirely sure where I stand in the present.
On the other hand, they might like the idea. My mother was thrilled that I was marrying a Jewish guy. She said they make the best husbands.
But then, my parents only sent their kids to Sunday school because they thought some religious training was necessary to ensure that we wouldn’t grow up to be ax murderers. They didn’t have any actual religious beliefs, so they didn’t anticipate that there would be any religious conflicts.
Judaism in many ways is a very different religion, while there is nothing genetic about being Jewish (I am not talking things like Ashkenazy or Sephardic or Falasha), it has roots in something no other faith really does. Judaism was founded in a particular place, and because it didn’t proslytize, it was never meant to be a universal religion, it was tied to the people of one particular region, and that identity was basically part of who they were. Because of this tribalism and the idea of being different, it also meant that Jews through much of their history have fought to maintain that identity, it went through things like the Assyrian and Bablyonian invasions, and the secularization that is the background of the Chanukkah story (it was something of a civil war, the Maccabees who were purists against the Hellenized Jews). After the Diaspora, when Jews spread all over, it was this concept of being ‘the people’ that kept them going as people through all the exiles and so forth. A rough analogy to it might be found in Islam, where if you practice the faith it is part of your whole identity, almost everything you do is supposed to be influenced by your faith, it is basically who you are.
It can be hard to understand that I think as a non Jew because Christianity is a different religion, even with all the fragmentation between the Catholic Church and the protestants and eastern orthodox, all of them share a universality, even if they don’t agree with each other, in that they say you are Christian when you accept God and Jesus, each faith has its own rules, but it isn’t the same as Judaism in the view. Judaism obviously allows converts, so it isn’t like your ancestry is everything,but that bond is still there, and from the converts I knew, the ones who did it because they truly felt called to, they seemed to have the same feeling. The problem with this kind of view is an obvious when, when you have a group that in some ways is insular, that sees itself with this kind of birthright and identity, you can see the problems with someone marrying someone outside the faith, on top of the history of things that happened to the Jews, things like forced conversions, it is one less person “maintaining the line”, especially if they have kids and they are not raised in the faith and traditions, in a sense, it is like slowly losing ones country I think, a rough analogy might be if States or counties in the US could choose to be affiliated with let’s say Canada or Mexico, and they started doing that, how the rest might feel about the US, what was happening. Same people living there, same people if let’s say Vermont decided it wanted to be part of Canada, but now suddenly they would be very different to the rest of us.
I don’t think there are any easy answers, the only thing I will state outright is that if parents cut their kids off if they marry outside the faith, and worse, ignore their grandkids, then they are guilty to me of major bigotry, because they are denying their own blood, denying themselves grandchildren and vice/versa, it is cutting off their nose to spite their own face because they might feel like they have ‘lost’ their kids and grandkids to the tribe, but in reality they are the ones that caused the loss. Among other things, unless you want to hold onto the matrilinear structure as the ‘only valid one’, which in this day and age quite frankly is a bit of an anachronism to me (practical in the past, when Judaism was almost entirely tribal and blood born, and you always knew who the mother was, hence if she was a jew, the kid was), there is always hope that the kid will find their way back:).
I agree and I do not intend, would not even consider, going to that extreme.
If my parents were still alive, I think they would not approve the relatiionship between DS and his GF, let alone their (potential) marriage. This would be so even before they had a chance to meet her.
For some reason, I believe DS seems to have switched the type of church he attend: from a protestant church to a catholic church. Does it mean that he may be not “serious” about either? (I did learn that his GF and her family are Catholic. I would imagine his switching may have something to do with this. Isn’t there a saying that goes like this: If you have a daughter, she will bring someone into the family after she grows up. If you have son, he will find a partner and join her family after he grows up. LOL.)
Really sad day for us. We learned that we cannot have your daughter. My son already started crying.
@alh - thank you for this. I do not want that to be my legacy.
"I think it’s more accurate to say these are secular trappings to a holiday which, ultimately, is still a religious one. Snowmen and ornaments and such may not be Bible-based, but they’re not strictly seasonal, either. "
The problem with that statement is those ‘secular trappings’ have overwhelmed the religious one in our popular culture. Christmas is two separate holidays these days, has been for a long time, and the secular one, the one with mistletoe and Christmas trees and santa and gifts and holiday shopping, is huge, it dwarfs the original one. Halloween was once a religious holiday, it was the pagan New Year that was celebrating the last harvest, was also a time when the spirit world was close to the real one, was a time for the god to die (then be born again at the solstice), but other then fundamentalist Christians no one sees Halloween as being anything but a time for kids to trick or treat, and adults to let go a bit and have fun.
When you say snowmen and santa and christmas trees and gifts are trappings to a religious holiday, they aren’t, the fundamentalists and the Catholic Bishops have been in full court press to “Keep Christ in Christmas”, if in fact the rest were secular trappings of a religious holiday, they wouldn’t be doing that…and the reason they are doing it is that for many people the whole Advent story is the sidelight. When people wish another “Merry Christmas”, they likely aren’t thinking of the baby Jesus bringing light to the world, they simply are wishing them happy tidings of the holiday season, same with Happy Holidays. Atheists celebrate Christmas for the family and food and gifts and the blessings of family (well, okay, a therapist might disagree, most therapists will tell you they are busiest during and after this period of time). Other than the name, and some generalized idea like expressing good tidings and peace and love (which after all, are not exactly thoughts exclusive to Christianity or Christ), little kids don’t dream of the baby Jesus, and many adults are thinking about holiday plans, travel, getting gifts, New Years, either almost entirely or entirely, rather than the Advent season. It doesn’t mean that the religious holiday doesn’t exist, it of course does, it is just that the secular holiday, that has nothing to do with Jesus whatsoever, has come to symbolize the holiday, to be what most people think about.
The roots of the secular holiday are in the religious one, but the split between the two started happening a long time ago. Cromwell and the Puritans forbid celebrating Christmas at all (I believe the song “The World turned Upside Down” was originally a broadside against that policy, and by the 19th century the secular holiday was in full swing. Sure, people still go to Midnight services, it is one of the highest days of church attendance, but many of those people go to church twice a year, and when the next day they celebrate Christmas, you would be loathe to find any religious trappings in the home that day, most Christmas celebrations are like the one in “A Christmas Story” rather than what might happen in a more religious household. Like I said before, if this fundamentally is a religious holiday, the religious groups would not be clamoring to ‘keep Christ in Christmas’ and the radically upset would not be planning boycotts of stores that used “Happy Holidays” as their greetings to customers and the like. Its origins are in the Christ story, and we celebrate it on December 25th because that was the day the church decided to celebrate Christ’s birth, but we also celebrate Halloween on the 31st of October because that was the Pagan New Year (and All Saints Day, November 1st, came from All Hallows day, the day of the spirits, from whence the term Halloween came from), we celebrate Halloween seasonally at the end of October because that was the date of the pagan festival, doesn’t make Halloween religious (well, other than those who want to see the devil and ‘evil pagan influence’ in everything)
Rockvillemom - you may not intend the hypothetical non-attendance of a grandchild’s christening to be hurtful but I hope you understand that this very concept is exactly what tore my mother and grandmother apart. You win no points with your adult children this way. In fact, it’s pretty darn close to the Dear Abby type thing you posted about not letting a wrong-religion in-law in the house.
I see your point - particularly because I thought it was awful when my cousin married an Indian girl and none iof her family attended their wedding - even though they did a Jewish ceremony and an Indian one. But I just cannot imagine myself at a grandchild’s christening or baptism. That phrase about grandparents rolling over in their graves comes to mind.
You’re there because you love them, not because you agree that Jesus is the son of God. It’s the same way you attend someone else’s wedding.
Christmas is relatively minor religious-wise compared to Easter. I think any number of people can just say “eh, it’s a guy’s birthday, no big deal” and not let it ruin a get-together full of lots of secular fun.