Adult children dating - different faiths and races

I personally don’t believe that someone from a Christian background (approx. 2.2 billion people) who is married to someone of Hindu background (approx. 1 billion people) – especially someone who exhibits a remarkable ignorance of Judaism and Jewish history and the actual meaning of “chosen” – has any business whatsoever expressing such belligerent disrespect for (and resentment of) people who are Jewish (approx. 14-16 million people!) for whom the preservation of the Jewish people, God forbid, actually means something both in a general sense and in terms of their own family.

Does wis75 understand that it’s only in very recent years that the worldwide population of Jews has approached its pre-Holocaust level? Nothing wis75 or her children do – or, frankly, any other Christian or Hindu or Muslim does – has any material effect on the survival of their people or their religion (even leaving aside the fact that for most Gentiles, their religion isn’t also an ethnicity).

It’s very different when you belong to a group that came close to being exterminated within living memory. Especially for people like me with a direct family connection to the victims of that extermination. As the daughter of a Holocaust survivor (my mother) who lost most of her immediate family and innumerable collateral relatives, and who told me when I was a child that I was her symbolic answer to Adolf Hitler (quite a burden to place on a child, but it was something I always understood instinctively) – and also because my mother died very young herself, when I was 20 – of course I feel an ineradicable loyalty and obligation to her memory, and, in turn, to the Jewish people.

The idea of marrying someone who wasn’t Jewish didn’t bother me particularly when I was young, although I always recognized that it would be easier for someone Jewish to comprehend what my background meant to me. But of course it would have bothered me to have children who didn’t identify as Jews – I would have considered it a betrayal of my family and my people. And I honestly think it would have bothered me even more to have children who identified with a religion that was essentially founded on the idea of superseding Judaism (go read something like James Carroll’s “Constantine’s Sword” if you don’t know what I mean, or at least keep in mind that when Christians refer to what they call the “Old” and “New” Testaments, they’re not talking about chronological order), and, regardless of recent ecumenical trends, has a nearly 2000-year history of its adherents persecuting and often slaughtering Jews. And, even now, regardless of denomination or political leanings, has all too many of its adherents who are all too eager to show their disrespect for Judaism (consciously or not) by reflexive denigrations of the so-called “Old Testament God,” and by using buzzwords like “harsh,” “vengeful,” “legalistic,” “judgmental,” and “Pharisee” (apparently not realizing that the Pharisees were essentially the populist, non-aristocratic party of Jews, and the precursors to rabbinic Judaism) by contrast to Christian love and mercy, etc. (And people criticize Jews for supposedly thinking their religion is “better” than others?)

So to me, having Christian-identified children (or children who identified as anything other than Jewish) would have made me feel very uncomfortable, and would have felt disrespectful to my ancestors – who have all been Jewish for at least the last 300 years. If anyone can’t understand that, that’s fine, and they’re entitled to their opinion, but as harsh and judgmental as their opinion may be, it doesn’t change how I feel.

Of course, having children who identified as something other than Jewish would have been very unlikely for me, because I can’t imagine having married someone, Jewish or otherwise, who didn’t agree to respect my feelings on the subject.

The fact is that I did marry someone Jewish – in fact, everyone I ever went out with, with one exception, was Jewish. And my son’s Jewish identity is almost as strong as mine – like mine, in a historical and familial and “Jewish values” sense as much or more than a strictly religious sense. I’m sure he would have been infinitely more shocked had I changed my religion than he was that I changed my gender/sex!

I really don’t care very much at all if my son ends up with someone Jewish or not, although, all else being equal, it would make me happy if he did. As for grandchildren, I have a feeling that it’s going to be many years (if ever) before that happens, but if and when it does, of course it would please me if they identified as Jewish, and of course it would make me sad if they didn’t – and even sadder in the unlikely event (knowing how my son feels) that they affirmatively identified with a different religion, although of course I would still love them. All I have to do is look at my father’s family, in which all three of my first cousins married Gentiles, and none of their children – or, now, grandchlldren – seems to have a tangible Jewish identity or any real knowledge of Jewish history or Judaism. (So much so that at family gatherings, which we do still have on occasion, nobody except my son seems to “get” that when everyone sits down to eat, and is asked to join hands for a prayer, it makes me very uncomfortable that the prayer invariably mentions “Christ our Lord,” which is why I always make sure to unlink my hands before that point!)

Another thing that bothers me about wis75’s views – apart from the fact that apparently people aren’t allowed to have any feelings at all about their children’s choices! – is her seeming implication that the survival of the Jewish people (whether viewed in terms of religion or ethnicity) has no independent value (especially given all the religions and peoples that have been extinguished in the past), and that we’d all be better off if there were no diversity in the world in terms of religion or ethnicity – or, by the same logic, language or nationality – and all minorities were absorbed by majorities. I guess Roma people and Native Americans and other marginalized people who’ve been the victims of genocide aren’t allowed to prefer that their children continue their culture and traditions to succeeding generations? I guess it was a matter of indifference when the last indigenous Tasmanian died sometime in the 19th century? And when the last native speakers of so many languages have died? And when Coptic Christians in Egypt are endangered? Or is it only Jews who aren’t allowed to have pride in their people and history and religion, and to feel sad at anything that decreases the likelihood of their long-term survival?

I wasn’t going to comment at all in this thread, because I wasn’t interested in evoking the same sort of negative reaction that rockvillemom did, but wis75’s comments changed my mind. I simply didn’t want to let them pass by without expressing my feelings. Because “offensive” is an extraordinarily mild term for how I see those comments.

Thank you very much. I appreciate your post very much.

I am giving much thought to my sons’ independence and not repeating the controlling behavior of my parents. But our Jewish identity does matter to me - and it should matter to my sons as well. I can be flexible on the details - I do see that is their choice and not mine. But at the most basic level - their Jewish identity is important and a future spouse that does not get that - would be worrisome.

An issue here is that, although grandparents indeed can have a positive influence on the upbringing of grandchildren if it is done well, there are often disagreement among all parties (grandparent, parents and kids) involved what is really a positive influence. (depending on who is looking at it.) People who grew up in a different environment could have a different view about the same thing. This is especially true if SIL/DIL came from a different family. The two sets of grandparents could have a different “expectation” too. There are just too many factors that are not under any person’s control, I think.

From our point of view, our offspring has enough “headaches” for him to sort out. We would accept whatever he and his spouse decide to do. That is, in our case, no opinion from us may be what he prefers to have. Our strong influences on him would preferably be ended right before college. The second best choice: right after college graduation. (It does not mean that we do not have some “secret” wish (e.g., getting settle down by starting his own family.) But this is just our own secret wish, not some factor he needs to take into consideration when he makes decision.)

I knew of the parents who have a son who is homosexual and he decides not to have a long-term partner and get married due to whatever reason it may be. The parents would be overjoyed even if he finds a partner, get married and they choose not to have any child.

I think what gets the ire up of some posters is a perceived sense that RVM and some other Jewish posters are denouncing another faith (Christianity) through comments shared such as “heartbroken”, “shivers down my spine”, “would be a wedge between us”, I hope and pray my grandson has a bris but “I will not attend a grand child’s baptism.” I better understand now the Jewish perspective on this (thank you) and I DO get that accepting Christianity into your home/family would be a huge shift in your core beliefs (and in the end may not be possible for you), but those comments can still be heard as a negative commentary on another person’s value system and their core beliefs. And it can indeed feel exclusionary and a bit righteous, even if that is not your perspective or intention. I don’t think I would ever utter the words “I will never attend the bris of a future grandson”, and I venture to guess that if I did you would find that comment as somewhat of an attack on your own core values. No different than if I said “I will never attend the marriage of my son to a gay partner.” That would be heard very offensively by the gay son, his partner and his community of friends, no matter how much I tried to explain it as an emotional response rooted in deeply ingrained core beliefs. (That too is a comment I would never make, btw!)

At my core, I believe that we are all called to find and celebrate that which connects us; to build bridges rather than create moats. At my Presbyterian worship service this morning, we had a guest preacher who does ministry in an urban setting (very different context than the suburbia where my church is located.) His sermon, entitled “Love One Another”, was particularly meaningful in light of this conversation we have shared; he touched on many of the sentiments which have been thoughtfully expressed here. And most interestingly, he began his invitation to the communion table with a recounting of the Passover story - a poignant reminder of how we Christians and Jews are indeed connected. My prayer for Rockville Mom, should she ever find herself in that place she fears, is that she will be able to celebrate how she and her DIL’s family are connected, rather than focusing on and acting upon her fears of how they are different.

It is my understanding that a Catholic can only baptize an infant in an emergency situation in which the child might expire.

@DonnaL “I wasn’t going to comment at all in this thread, because I wasn’t interested in evoking the same sort of negative reaction that rockvillemom did, but wis75’s comments changed my mind. I simply didn’t want to let them pass by without expressing my feelings. Because “offensive” is an extraordinarily mild term for how I see those comments.”

Thank you, @DonnaL . Just like you, I did not post earlier, and decided to post now for exactly the same reason.

In the country where I was born and raised, Jewish religion was prohibited, Jewish language was forbidden, Jewish culture was discouraged. No wonder many Jews desperately wanted to dissimilate – they wanted to feel welcome in their workplace and community, they wanted to become integrated into the society, they wanted to get access to elite education and classified jobs they and their children were forbidden from. No wonder that in that society, where masking their Jewish heritage could become a matter of preservation not only in a historical, but sometimes in a very physical sense, many Jewish parents encouraged their children to escape their Jewish routes and fate through inter-marriages. Well, not so fast – in that society, everyone from every government official to every common citizen made it their life mission to expose every Jewish descendant for many generations. Jews could not forget or hide their heritage even if they wanted to… And guess what, just like it happened many times before in diaspora, anti-semites managed to keep Jewish culture and heritage well and alive. And for that I learnt to be very grateful to anti-semites.

Ironically, we experience a completely opposite situation here in the US where most people are so wonderful, welcoming and accepting. And of course, as a consequence, Jews assimilate much more rapidly and forget their heritage in this very tolerant and open society. One of the earlier posters described very eloquently this self-inflicted assimilation of our children in America – it’s so difficult for their parents to convey their sense of desperation, fear and guilt of losing their heritage and ancestry, which was preserved and survived for thousands of lean years in diaspora, but is now disappearing rapidly just over a few rich decades. Is our culture and heritage still worth protecting? Depends who you ask, some posters don’t give a hoot as they claim to value cultural and religious diversity. Amazingly, the same folks don’t seem to realize that mixed marriages destroy diversity much faster than any prosecution or intolerance. I am not at all against mixed marriages, but since when avoiding mixed marriages for cultural reasons, or preserving your Jewish identity after a mixed marriage became tribal or bigoted?

@wis75 - from the bottom of my heart, I’d like to express my sincere gratitude to you, and others like you, for protecting and restoring this sense of identity in our children. We need people like you during these rich years - if you could inspire me and DonnaL to post, I trust you can also wake up the hearts and souls of our children.

@mcat2 - Well of course, not everyone has children. I have one sibling and she never married and has no children. I brought the topic up because younger son has a serious gf, and has expressed desire for marriage and family in the next few years. He recently asked me what I thought about a friend of his who graduated 3 years earlier who is recently married and buying a house - that would be at about age 24. I think that is young. So - he is obviously thinking about it.

What this conversation has helped me to process is wanting to be supportive, rather than controlling. Encouraging, rather than demanding. My parents steered me towards marrying Jewish through a combination of threats and guilt. I am not going to repeat that, but I do understand their motivation. I have a very good relationship with both sons and intend to keep it that way. I also believe in the importance of passing our Jewish heritage forward to the next generation. Goal is to balance both.

I was raised Jewish. My husband was raised Catholic. I had no idea what his religious background was until well into our relationship. Simply put, it was not a source of discussion on our dates…for a long time.

RVM, it is very possible your son will fall in love with a woman and not even know that she is Catholic, or Hindu, or whatever. It is even more possible that he won’t know her family convictions, just like she might not know yours.

Interfaith marriages are much more common now than when I was a little girl. When I was growing up, I knew no one whose parents weren’t the same religion…and race.

I view our world as a melting pot of religions as well as folks from different countries. At the end of the day, I want my kids to be married to someone who is kind, responsible, and cares about them a lot. If they are a different religion, I will deal,with that issue, just as my parents did when I got married.

I think RVM has stated several times that her relationship,with her kids is a priority, and she will try to look at things through their lens if it becomes necessary.

@Embracethemess - very interesting thought - about the Christian grandparent not wanting to attend the hypothetical grandson’s bris. First, I would be sympathetic, not offended. And then, I would reach out and find some way to have her feel included and welcomed. I would NOT want her sitting home feeling excluded. That would be a failure, not a victory for me.

@mycupoftea - thank you. Some times it takes a good dose of anti-Semitism to make Jews understand that no matter how assimilated they might be - there are those that will only see them as Jews -with every negative connotation that implies.

It’s eye opening to some of us non-Jews, as well.

I do see where you’re coming from rockvillemom. I know a few families where one spouse has converted to Judaism in order to marry. In all of those cases the non Jewish side of the family has embraced the grandchildren, gone to all the milestones such as Bar Mitzvahs, Bris, etc. it never occurred to me that if the situation were reversed that the Jewish side of the family might not do the same (I’m excluding families who would disown a kid for marrying outside of their faith) or that being hurt that the Jewish grandparents might not attend religious events such as baptism or confirmation would make someone a bigot as someone said several posts ago when I said this could be upsetting to a DIL. It’s nice that you would try to make the Christian grandparents feel welcome at a bris, but I got the impression that you just would not go to a baptism, no matter how welcoming anyone might be. Just as you wouldn’t consider it a victory for the Christian grandparents to be sitting at home during the bris I don’t think your son and his family would consider it a victory to have you sit at home during a baptism. Of course all of these are hypotheticals and hopefully you’ll never have to deal with it, but at least you’ll have some things to think about if it does.

I would attend the bris, but not look. (I didn’t look when my kids got their shots; too squeamish andd I was not present when they were circ’d).

We, as parents, also have to pragmatic. Some of our children will likely divorce. None of us will want to lose contact with grandchildren because we fostered “bad blood” with DILs and SILs.

Having a good relationship with DILs and SILs is important because sadly if there is a divorce, none of us would want to give the main-custodial parent reasons to conveniently forget to invite us to important events.

@DonnaL, please, please do note that the hostile and discordant posts have come from a tiny minority of posters.

On the perspective issue…the dominant ethnic and religious influence in my childhood was from a group who had been invaded and occupied for hundreds of years. Lands were taken from my people, who became tenants on their ancestral acres. It was illegal for a person of my heritage to own a horse worth more than a few pounds, it was illegal for them to use their own name (it had to be translated into the language of the occupying power), it was illegal for them to be an officer in the armed forces and in many cases to hold public office, it was illegal for them to be educated, so itinerant teachers taught children under the hedgerows. They had to pay a fine for not attending the religious services of the invading power. The invading power imported settlers to take over substantial tracts of land, and rearranged things so that the settlers had much more political power than their numbers would warrant. In one infamous incident, soldiers of the faith were tied together and thrown into the sea when their ships were taken by the alien power. Clergy of their faith were banned from the country, and subject to immediate execution. And on and on.

Ultimately, a famine struck the nation, which had been reduced to dependence on a single crop. Throughout the entire famine, food was exported to the invaders as cash crops while the natives starved: butter, milk, vegetables, meat. The famine was seized upon by the predatory landlords as an excuse to turn families out upon the roads and tear down their homes in order to clear the way for more profitable sheep farming. One third of the population died of starvation or starvation-related diseases. ONE THIRD!! One third of the population emigrated, largely to the US. In many cases, this was by force.

The population has yet to recover to pre-famine levels.

Yet there is no doubt that there is something uniquely horrible about the Holocaust.

OMG mom2collegekids - we have traveled from hypothetical marriages to hypothetical divorces? Even I cannot worry that far ahead.

Consolation, so noted – I had noticed that already.

Digressing for a moment, the best fictional description of the Irish famine I’ve ever read is the chapters on that subject (constituting the reminiscences of one of the primary characters) in the excellent novel “Paradise Alley,” by Kevin Baker – the primary subject of which is the Draft Riots in New York City in 1863, including the horrific atrocities committed against African-Americans (largely, ironically enough, by Irish-Americans, something one wouldn’t know if one’s knowledge of the riots were limited to Scorsese’s highly disingenuous movie “Gangs of New York.” Of course, most of the police who tried to prevent those atrocities, and many of the troops that ultimately put an end to the riots, were Irish-American themselves).

Have you ever read about the fact that “in 1845, Ottoman Sultan Abdülmecid declared his intention to send £10,000 to victims of the Irish potato famine, but Queen Victoria requested that the Sultan send only £1,000, because she herself had sent only £2,000”? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland%E2%80%93Turkey_relations. Rather telling, I think.

In any event, the Holocaust was hardly the only genocide in history, even though the term “genocide” was invented in its aftermath. But it certainly did have some unique elements, in terms of its deliberateness and centralized bureaucratic implementation, as well as its massive industrial scale. I highly recommend Vasily Grossman’s writings about the Holocaust (in both his fiction – particularly the novel “Life and Fate” – and his non-fiction, particularly his near-contemporaneous description of Treblinka) and also about the Holodomor (the genocidal Ukrainian famine).

@DonnaL, I will check it out, thanks.

I highly, highly recommend Star of the Sea, by Joseph O’Connor. Just an extraordinary novel.

I do think my two DDs know how important it is in having a ‘life partner’ for their spouse.

People often explore their belief system when they plan to marry, and when they are raising children.

Fostering good relationships with SIL/DIL and their family is helpful. You don’t have to ‘buy into crazy’ but be careful of how you interact.

Something to do with how to accept what you cannot change.

I think I have learned something from this thread. It opens my eyes that something that is deemed not very important in someone could be very important to some others. It is completely fine as long as everybody treats others with a different belief or core value in a respectful way.

The other days at work, someone with the same heritage/ethic group as mine lamented that people within our heritage/ethnic group tend to not “help each other” just because of their shared heritage/ethic group. It was sad if this is indeed the case. But in general, the majority of us won’t intentionsally do something bad toward others either. We are very “lonely” in this sense and do not have a lot to bond among us. Sometimes I feel that I indeed envy that Jews have had some cohesive group to belong to. This may be why I do not think embracing our “ethnic group”/heritage is particular important – sometimes I wish I would not be like this because I perceive yhos may not be something I like deep in my heart. Actually, it is rumored that within people of the same ethic group that DS’s GF belongs to, they do “better” – they would value their “shared core value” more than we do. But I think DS really can be “adopted” into her ethnic group – he has actually NOT been exposed to most of the core values (there are still some, some bad and some good.) But it is also unlikely he would embraces fully the main stream culture here – especially if he is married with this GF who does not belong to the main stream culture either even though both of them are more successful in assimulate themselves than us (the parent generation.)

It is a very mixed feeling.

BTW, I once heard that being an atheist could be considered as sort of a “religion” (albeit just the opposite of it.) This is because their strong “disbelief” in the belief and core values of those who are believers in a “true” religion. Most of them just “don’t get it” why it is so “wonderful” about having the faith in a “true” religion.

Somehow my son once said he does not think I am truly an atheist. He used a word to describe me and I do not know that word (and do not bother to look it up as I really do not think it is a big deal if I am a believer or not a believer or who-knows-what – either one will be fine for me if I can truly embrace it. Either could bring something good to a person’s life if done right, IMHO.) I may be considered as being “very strange”.

Oh…when I was in college, a professor once said I chose to not believe in anything – including not believing in what an atheist would believe in either. Kind of doubtful about EVERYTHING.

Agnostic?