Come on, if your co-worker says may i join you, you are going to say no? Again, your example is a different situation. Can’t really argue with people who are willfully misunderstanding the situation.
That ‘poor’ kid just starting out is making a judgement too, often based not on their experience meeting members of the organization, but based on the relative social status they’ve heard from the other equally uninformed, superficial college freshmen. These kids are often trying to leverage a sorority/fraternity membership into elevating their own social status without a thought about how they are going to contribute to the organization they so desperately want to join. When their strategy blows up in their face, they get hysterical and vindictive often joined by their mothers (almost always the mothers) even though they have usually cruelly dismissed other chapters who may have been a match as not being “good enough”. This happens all the time and btw is a definite reason to cut a PNM. No one likes to be used.
As for the “inclusive” environment colleges are supposed to be promoting, they aren’t very inclusive when they are rejecting kids based on “holistic” factors. I don’t know why anyone thinks that colleges are any more inclusive than any other institution. Dorm mates aren’t required to be friendly to each other and if they don’t like you, you won’t be included in their activities.
Employers also evaluate you on how well you come across on a resume and usually a 10 minute phone interview. Welcome to the real world.
I can’t say I’m surprised. It’s clear that your opinion is set in stone.
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Why are these poor rejected PNMs disappointed? Don’t they already have other friends? After all, they didn’t really know the girls in the sorority they were so desperate to join. Sorority girls put a lot more effort into recruitment than the girls going through rush, often looking forward to seeing a girl they felt a connection with at an earlier gathering and sometimes going the extra mile by lobbying the other sisters on her behalf. They feel real disappointment when that girls chooses another chapter. Is it so hard to understand that it cuts both ways?
@mathyone That argument could go either way.
1: Most fraternities and sororities have a "one "no" and you are not in" policy. One person of fifty can say no, and no brother or sister can do anything other than try to convince them. We had a very very good pledge in our sorority, everyone liked her, and she looked to be a future board member. One sister said "no". She wouldn't even tell anyone why she said no. She just said no, and wouldn't give any details. The thoughts were "the pledge slept with her boyfriend" or something like that, but no dice. It was a no, and the girl was rejected.
2: Dating two girls and then expecting both to not know about each other, and not be jealous, is not very bright. Yes, people talk. And also frats, no matter how alike (such as two jock fraternities), will think that their frat is special, and if someone is spending time at another frat, they aren't sure which frat is for them. Like dating a bunch of people just in case one of them is "the one".
In summary:
- Maybe he didn’t know “the game”. Maybe he “played it wrong”. My second point is important, and he needs to learn that lesson somehow. My son learned that when he had two competing ECs, and the one teacher kicked him out, even though the school allows multiple ECs and the teachers need to work with students. Which my son did, he talked to both teachers, but one still kicked him out.
- He will get over it. Most schools allows students to pledge as sophomores, although my experience with that is it could be a bit awkward. He can still go to frat parties, and he can join a service frat or other club.
- My first point is also important. Like the hiring analogy, one person saying no can be the end of it. It is really really difficult to understand why someone might say no, but like the office party analogy, you invite 10 or 15 people, but you don't want 30 or 50. It may not be his fault at all that he wasn't given a bid.
(the converse of point 1 can be true - in some Greek organizations, you need a sponsor. If no one wanted to sponsor him, that is, they wanted to sponsor someone else instead of him, he may have been left out. #2 choice for many people may not be enough.)
Good luck to him, he needs to rethink if he wants the Greek life, or if he can get a reasonable facsimile through a service organization.
You betcha, I’m going to say no. Otherwise, my co-worker down the hallway (who I don’t like to eat lunch with because I always go to the sushi place and he hates sushi) might take it wrong way.
Most of those who go through rush don’t spend 4 years in tears because they didn’t get into House A, aren’t in agony because they have to watch others wearing those letters on campus. Most join another house, find other letters to wear, or decide to participate in another student activity. Very very few don’t get into any house; they aren’t rejected by everyone. I think there were something like 25 girls at Alabama, out of 2500 who signed up for rush who didn’t get any matches, and even those girls are eligible to still be matched and join a house during the open rush process. More than 2300 girls were matched and accepted(some withdraw on their own). It is the goal of Panhell to find a house for every girl and everyone involved in the greek system would be thrilled if every single participant pledged an bid night. The goal isn’t to only get the prettiest or most popular bids, but to get everyone involved. Should the school get rid of Greeks when so many students want to participate? Was there ever a student who didn’t get into the dorm that she wanted, onto the cheer leading squad, elected to the student government (which can be a popularity contest)? Of course, but no one would suggest that the schools not have dorms, cheer leaders, or student government.
I agree that there are plenty of schools out there and if you don’t want a big football atmosphere or a big Greek atmosphere, keep looking until you find what you want. If you want Princeton, you have to accept the eating clubs. If you want Notre Dame, you have to accept that there are no Greeks. If you want Ivy League, it is by definition a sports league and there will be sports.
As a shy person, I was “rejected” a heck of a lot more in dorm situations than I ever was in rush, where people actually DID get to know me. Because they WANTED to get to know me. Unlike in the dorm, where that group of kids had already decided they were giing to this movie or that club and I would have been an unwanted tag along.
Totally invalid analogy.
When you walk in for a job interview, you’re not entitled to anything other than fair consideration.
When you show up on a college campus, you’re entitled (and in many cases paying for) the same opportunities as anybody else.
My alma mater has what I believe is the most sensible policy: All student organizations must be open to anybody who wants to join. The only exceptions are those that require specific skills or talents (e.g. singing groups and sports teams). A bunch of 20 year-olds judging the “acceptability” of a bunch of 19-year-olds is downright farcical.
And getting more set the more I read.
So both parties can disappoint each other with shallow social elevation schemes? Then the rejected (and their mothers!) can get vindictive and hysterical?
I simply cannot imagine wanting any part of that drama.
“Most fraternities and sororities have a “one “no” and you are not in” policy.”
Proof of “most”? Mine didn’t have that policy. No one person could blackball a girl. We trusted our sisters’ judgment.
The solution is simple. Find a school that is consistent with your personal belief and attend there and avoid the ones that don’t share your beliefs. No need to attempt to change the schools that don’t represent your beliefs. I’m open minded enough to believe that my opinions are just my opinion and that others are entitled to their own personal opinions. Mine is no more right than theirs and vice versa.
^ totally agree carolinamom.
So, for those students who may be interested in fraternities and sororities, what are desirable and undesirable characteristics of fraternity and sorority systems and chapters to consider?
It does appear that some of the students described in this thread as being disappointed in fraternity rejection experiences went into the process poorly informed.
So I guess the “well informed” parents already know that their son could be the one who is escorted out at the last second in a humiliating fashion while all of his best friends & roommate get to stay and pledge their top fraternity with which they already have formed strong bonds. And the well informed parents will be fine with it if it happens in that way for their son. That’s what I’m gathering from this thread. Regardless of how “over the top” the maligned poster has been, I do sympathize very much with her feelings and believe it does reflect very badly on fraternities.
There were a few things I liked about the Greek scene at Dartmouth. First, rush didn’t take place until fall term sophomore year. People had a full year to get to know each other, establish other connections, etc. Second, the system was extremely open. With the exception of a weekly meeting and a few formals, houses were open to everyone most of the time. Third, there was a wide range of houses. Many kids pledged who would never consider it elsewhere, like mine.
Nevertheless, I know he thinks that they should do away with it , particularly when they have established the residential college system they are working on now.
“So, for those students who may be interested in fraternities and sororities, what are desirable and undesirable characteristics of fraternity and sorority systems and chapters to consider?”
That’s subjective, too. I have kids who were super excited to rush at Alabama and SMU and are having a great experience there. They love the tradition, complete with summer rush, perceived hierarchy and all. Not what I would prefer for myself or my child, but the student and the parents are happy and successful, and that’s my job. They knew what they were looking for and got it.
The one objective warning I give is for young women who want to join and are considering Indiana University. This is the only sorority system in the country that is not set up to make room for every qualified young woman who wants to join. Everywhere else, if you have decent grades, you follow the rules, and you’re open to every group, you are overwhelmingly likely to find a place in the system.
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How quota is set. It should be some version of - if there are 300 girls and 10 houses, quota should be 30. That’s where Indiana falls short. It’s not very nice.
Look for the systems where they brag that their members are involved in campus activities that are non Greek - such as student govt, sports, newspaper, theater, etc.
Look for a system where the Greeks aren’t physically isolated from everyone else, where their houses are either on campus or right next to it.
Not saying I’m for or against just a little side story. Someone said earlier that the OP son could still go to fraternity parties. I’ve always heard that girls can easily get into these parties but guys who are not members can not. I actually never believed this to be true. The second week of school my child and a group of kids went to a fraternity party. All of the girls in the group we’re let in. All of the guys were stopped and not allowed in. They tried but were all turned away. About twenty minutes later the girls that were let in texted the guys and said they were leaving the party because it was all girls and very few guys. Seems these idiot frat guys neglected to think about what the girls would like from a party.
YMMV on that point as some campuses such as Oberlin DID change their policies regarding fraternities/sororities, secret societies, and other socially exclusive groups because the admins and a critical mass of the student body felt they had a corrosive effect on the campus community they desired.
That was the reason why it passed that ban in the 1870’s…and extended it to include barring undergrads from joining/maintaining memberships in such types of organizations even if they were based off-campus as a condition of matriculation and continuing enrollment.
Much more recently, other relative latecomers such as Williams & Middlebury did the same thing:
http://www.newsweek.com/inside-colleges-killed-frats-good-231346
Found this bit on the Williams case to be very interesting:
And no, I’m not necessarily calling for a complete eradication of fraternities/sororities on all college campuses. If some colleges have admins/student bodies which prefer having them, more power to them.
Great sources of free parties to crash and free food/desserts/spirits to carry off with my fellow independent friends. 