Advice? LAC vs money from not super pooper?

College Search & Lists
41

Do you think you can get an extremely high GPA at Haverford? Vs Temple or Drexel? That, plus your LSAT score, is most important. I would think achieving that will be easier at Temple or Drexel, but can you find out the average GPA at Haverford? Is there grade deflation?

My own experience (granted, from 30+ yrs ago) is that the name of my undergrad education had nothing to do with law school admission or success in law school. I majored in nursing at a state school which, at the time, would accept just about anyone. My courses didn’t include any critical writing courses that I can recall. I decided to go to law school 3 years later.

This was all before the internet, and I didn’t even know there was a difference in tiers of law school. I chose Temple Law School because I had read about its clinical program and thought I liked that, and Philly was far enough away from my state/city, but drivable.

I did great at Temple, despite having no writing background. I learned while at Temple that Penn Law was in a different league and that I would have better opportunities graduating from there, so I transferred, and also did great there (I was the only transfer student to write onto Law Review).

And, when it came to interviewing for legal jobs, I wasn’t turned down for any, and had a slew of offers from very prestigious firms across the country. If anything, I remember many interviewers being impressed by my success, because of my background.

This was, as I said, 30+ years ago, but I think the same would hold true today. If you work incredibly hard, get mentors (which should be easy when in honors), become a great writer if this doesn’t come naturally to you, become a “star” wherever you go, and get the right LSAT and GPA, your undergrad won’t matter.

For a more recent anecdote, a young man who helped with our S’s high school mock trial team while attending ASU undergrad recently graduated from Harvard Law and is working at Arnold and Porter (a prestigious firm from which I had an offer many years ago).

I am not saying that Haverford would not give you a very different undergrad experience, just that if $ is an issue, it is not necessary to go to an “elite” undergrad, as your future is based entirely on what you make of you. And, give thought to the GPA issue.

42

Haverford College is a very small school with an enrollment of just about 1,300 students.

What is cozy & intimate to some may be suffocating to others.

43

As multiple posters have pointed out, the serious cuts on law school admissions are GPA & LSAT, followed by LoRs and PS. The things that people think of as ‘pre-law’ are thing that test your interest, build your language skills, etc. As one poster pointed out, taking analytically, writing heavy classes will help you hone your skills- but you can take those classes anywhere.

What will make a difference is your LoRs, which you will get from your summer internships and work: it is increasingly common for applicants to work for 1-3 years before going to law school. Drexel is not a nothing university: you will have profs who know your name & care about your progress, and you will have support for getting summer internships, Neither Drexel nor Haverford will magically get those internships for you though: you will have to look for the posts, write the apps, get the LoRs from your profs, etc.

I am not dissing Haverford! it’s a great school, and there are definitely pluses. It would be an entirely different experience. All I am saying is that you won’t in any way disadvantage yourself for law school by choosing Drexel or Temple over Haverford.

44

Your parents may not have to take out any loans at all, if the difference between their contribution and what they can afford is only $2k. They need to talk to Haverford. That is a completely separate issue from how much YOU can take out in loans. You have 5k to work with before you max out in any given year. $1500 a year for four years gets you $6000 in loan debt after four years. That’s about a quarter of the average loan debt a graduating private college senior winds up carrying.

45

^Also, when did acceptances come out? Do you even have a financial aid package from Haverford yet?

46

Law school is a very risky proposition. Not only might you come out with tons of debt, but you might never work as a lawyer.

I know tons of people with law degrees who are doing something outside the practice of law with their lives. Unless you go to one of the handful of elite law school, there is no guarantee of a job at the end of the tunnel and law school itself will be extremely competitive.

IMO, return on investment will be greater with a Haverford degree than with a law degree unless it is from an elite law school or if you are top of your class from any other. Not saying you should go to Haverford. You can do well with a degree from Temple or Drexel as well. Just not a big fan of putting a lot of eggs in the law school basket.

47

Exactly! At this point, forget about law school-or anything after UG. There’s no question that all graduate/professional schools value high GPA, and students generally do best at a school at which they are most comfortable.

So OP has gotten a ton of advice; he can now shift through it and make his decision.

48

@circuitrider, good catch: it is 119 for the incoming class, but 230 different undergrad institutions across the three years (https://www.law.upenn.edu/admissions/list-of-schools.php).

49

The list includes Temple, Drexel, Haverford, & Southestern Louisiana University plus 226 other schools.

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quickly i just wanted to say thank you so much to everyone who has responded! I just realized that the reply button does not indirectly notify the people I was replying to so I am extremely sorry about the lack of tags used to respond.

@milgymfam i mean if money was no object i would run to haverford because it has always felt like the best fit school for me… but finances are a priority

@circuitrider acceptances came out last week and i got my aid in the mail monday. i am planning on calling haverford’s FA office

@havenoidea i will look into the avg undergrad gpa at haverford…i think its becoming quite clear that no matter where i go its what i do that will matter more, but the choice is still something

@Publisher i think i am leaning towards temple honors, possibly not as a commuter anymore because that is also a very inexpensive option considering my FA. My biggest goal in undergrad (and in general) is to involve myself with underserved school districts to better understand the nuances that are failing so many kids and teachers across the country. that was part of the reason i was interested in haverford at first-- that goal seemed to align with the ethos of that school

51

I would not assume that ap credits would reduce costs at Haverford. I believe they would only bump a student up into a higher level course.

I wouldn’t even assume a cost savings at a public university either as some have a standard tuition rate for full time students and course requirements may necessitate a full four years of study. Probably depends on the major though.

At my daughter’s public university ap credits usually just serve to reduce the course loads during a semester for her. But she is in engineering with a heavy course schedule and a fairly rigid course sequence.

52

@LeastComplicated Haverford will accept up to four college credits earned in high school. They are strictly elective, but they could cut out a semester of work (standard course load is four classes per semester at Haverford). The senior thesis is done across the fall and spring semesters of senior year so I’m not sure many people graduate early. My daughter plans to use her four class ‘buffer’ to take a lighter three class load 3 separate times- one for study abroad, and twice to start a new intensive language course (year long). So, you are right that having many AP/DE courses wouldn’t really save money at Haverford. They also wouldn’t necessarily skip someone out of prereqs and into higher level courses- all students take a full array of placement exams irregardless of their previous coursework.

53

Parents not giving you a straight answer on the money aspect suggests that they do not have as much as you were led to believe before, but are too embarrassed to admit it.

54

Or, they could be just like many parents of first-gens and prefer to keep their kids in the dark. I knew zilch about my parents finances until the day they died and then my eyes almost popped out of my head.

55

The parents do not need to give the student much financial information beyond a clear statement that “we can give you $x (per year or total) for your college costs without needing to take parent loans or you needing to take loans that require a cosigner, and this amount will not endanger our other financial goals like retirement or your younger siblings’ college”.

Basically, reasonable assurance about how much they will fund, rather than “we’ll try to make it work” or some other answer that creates worry about family finances. Yes, $x could be $0, which still gives the student useful information to make a decision with.

56

^What decision? This is strictly between the parents and the college. The college makes an offer; the parents wince and ask them to shave a little off the top (some parents may ask the student to contact the college on their behalf); the college comes back with another offer. Or not. But, in the end, no one is going anywhere until the parents are comfortable with the aid offer.

57

On these forums, there have been parents who seemed uncomfortable with the price but did not want to disappoint the student by saying that the desired college is too expensive (even though that could lead to a bigger disappointment later when the student has to leave the college due to running out of money). It looks like the OP is getting these uncertain vibes (rather than firm answers about which colleges are affordable and which are not) from the parents.

58

"I think that is like a solid term off? "

If you’re thinking about using credits to graduate early, I’d also lean to Drexel or Temple, LACs like Haverford are typically attended for all four years, as that’s usually how you get the best experience. Specifically at Haverford, there’s a senior seminar/thesis that I’m not sure you could get out of or take as a junior.

59

Ok I have read the whole thread and lots of good info here, based on the OP replies, Living at Temple makes a ton of sense, it works money wise, you get a much better immersion experience living on campus, your interest line up with their mission , and if you want inner city struggles on many levels downtown Philly will have them for you to learn from. If money was not a object perhaps a difference choice but money is a object and no debt for all parties works out great, if your parents so choose they can help you with law school if you decide to go that route.

60

Living on campus at Haverford is very different from commuting 40 minutes each way to Temple or Drexel. At Haverford you will spend much more time interacting with your fellow students, have better access to your professors, and can easily get involved in activities. Classroom learning is the core of an undergraduate education, but lots of valuable learning also takes place outside the classroom. If you live at home and commute 80 minutes every school day you will miss out on a lot. Listen to @milgymfam (post #36) who commuted to Temple and whose daughter attends Haverford. Chose Haverford if you can possibly afford it.

You need to carefully consider all of the costs of your college choices. As I understand it you have full tuition scholarships at Temple and Drexel. You still have to pay for books, transportation, and meals while on campus. While your parents probably will let you live rent-free at home, someone will have to pay for the food you eat at home. In other words, Temple and Drexel are not free. Try to figure out what they will cost.

Evidently Haverford has given you a financial aid package that asks your parents to pay $11k per year and for you to take $3k to $5k in loans per year. That should cover your tuition, your room, and your meals. Your transportation costs will be minimal. $3k to $5k per year in federally subsidized loans is reasonable.

Don’t base your decision on perceived “prestige” or on the likelihood law school admission. You may have different goals four years from now. Instead chose the college that offers the best learning environment for you and that your family can afford.