Advice on ED2 - Vassar vs Grinnell. International student applying to Liberal Arts Colleges for Cognitive Science/CS. 93/96/86/97% GPA by year, 34 ACT (35 super score), <$45k

Chance Me / Match Me
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Demographics

  • International student from Maharashtra, India
  • Spent all of middle and high school at an alternative residential school part of the Krishnamurthi Foundation. Focus on non-competitive learning, small size, accessible teachers (basically the LAC version of high schools).
  • Male, Indian (Marathi)
  • I took a gap year. That is, I completed HS in March 2023, applying to college for Fall 2024.

Intended Major(s)

  • Cognitive Science
  • Computer Science (where CogSci is not available)
  • Philosophy
  • Neuroscience
  • Psychology

GPA, Rank, and Test Scores

  • HS Scores: 93%, 96%, 86%, 97% in 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th grade respectively.
  • National CISCE Board
  • No equivalent to US-style GPA, just percentage aggregates
  • Class Rank: 1/44, but my school doesn’t report rank in transcript.
  • ACT: 2 attempts, 34 and 33 respectively with 11/12 in writing (superscore: 35)

Coursework

  • (Extra) Electives in 9th and 10th grade: Economics, Marathi (Language)
  • Electives in 11th and 12th grade: Physics, Chemistry, Math, Computer Science, English (generally considered one of the most rigorous combinations offered at my school)
  • APs (school doesn’t offer any. I took all independently): Calc BC (5), Comp Sci A (5), Physics C E&M (5), Biology (5), Psychology (5), World History and English Language and Composition (will take after applications)

Awards

  • Top 1% of all Indian 12th-grade ISC national exam givers; INSPIRE scholarship opportunity recipient
  • AP Scholar with Distinction
  • Recipient of CREST Gold award for independent STEM research on noise reduction algorithms
  • Recipient of the School Medal for Waterloo University’s Euclid Mathematics Contest

Extracurriculars

  • Founder of ‘Save a Life Initiative’; Organized 52 CPR training workshops in 20 villages, reaching 5500+ students & adults; Worked with local govt. officials; Led student participation
  • Prototype Developer and Lead for IAP CPR App
    Designed & coded the app to provide CPR training; funded by and recognized as Indian Academy of Pediatric’s (national medical NGO) national training module for laypersons & medics; 3K+ downloads in 2 months
  • Independently authored STEM research On comparison of spectral subtraction noise reduction algorithms; Published to Journal of Emerging Investigators; Presented at Sigma Xi International Conference; Received the British CREST Gold Award
  • Conducted research for Indian Freedom Foundation (IFF) through Young Researchers for Social Impact Program (YRSI)
    Surveyed 100+ respondents; shared insights & policy suggestions with IFF; won YRSI’s “Best Paper of the Year”
  • Co-founder and Member of school’s Philosophy Club
    Explored inquiry through dialogue; Eastern vs Western philosophies, moral relativism, etc; 20 members; 15+ meetings; posted 10+ pieces on Inquisit, a blog I built for interdisciplinary exploration.
  • Intern under academician and author Dr. Jaijit Bhattacharya
    Researched pre-colonial Indian linguistic advances for an academic book acknowledging it’s impact on global science & western knowledge
  • Training in Sitar, Indian classical instrument, as well as guitar
    Under Girish Kamble’s training, performed 3 ragas on the Sitar; 10+ guitar solos & 25+ gigs as part of the school band
  • Long Distance Running
    Ran 5 marathon events; ranked top 3 in school cross country x3; selected for world record Pangong Frozen Lake Marathon in Feb 2024
  • High-Altitude Trekking
    Completed 4 expeditions, surpassing an altitude of 18000 ft; the Himalayas have been my classroom for awe, resilience & humility, fostering my poise.

Essays/LORs/Other

  • Common App Essay: I narrate one of my Sunday runs, exploring connection with the world outside, and internal dialogues of moral dilemmas, and the pursuit of self-improvement. Overarching metaphor of life as a long run. I feel quite confident in the quality of writing and the personal-ness (if you will) of the essay, having gained feedback from a variety of mentors.
  • I’m pretty confident in my LORs as I’ll be getting them from some of the most experienced and talented teachers I know. Being in a school like mine has also helped me garner strong personal connections with them.

Cost Constraints / Budget

  • My budget is 45,000 USD per year.
  • I will be applying for aid (with CSS) to most of my LACs (doesn’t matter ofc for the need-blind ones)

Schools

Early Round (already applied)

  • Amherst (ED)
  • Macalester
  • University of Richmond
  • Case Western Reserve
  • Lake Forest (Accepted with more than enough merit scholarship!)
  • UMass Amherst
  • Purdue
  • Rutgers
  • SUNY Buffalo
  • UofT
  • UBC
  • McGill
  • 2 safeties in Netherlands
  • 2 safeties in India (home country)

Regular Round

  • Vassar
  • Grinnell
  • Bowdoin
  • Yale
  • Dartmouth
  • Swarthmore
  • Pomona
  • Wesleyan
  • Colgate
  • University of Rochester

Vassar v/s Grinnell. I need advice with my ED2, and that is the main purpose of this post.

Given that I’m willing to pay 45K/yr (out of the total 80-90K), I’m asking for an aid package less than the average aid package for both these schools (around 60K/yr for 50-60% of their students, which is HUGE).

I’m drawn to Vassar. The Cognitive Science program (oldest in the world), its’ location, campus, and its more artsy, bold, progressive campus environment and values. I would never regret ED Vassar.

Grinnell, on the other hand, is just as excellent on paper. But no Cognitive Science major (I can easily major/minor in related subjects. Not a dealbreaker). A little more quaint, quiet campus environment (I may be wrong) and rural campus.

On the plus side, Grinnell has almost 20% intl. students as compared to Vassar’s 9%. Stronger CS major. It fares marginally better with aid for international students. Most importantly, its ED acceptance is 50%!!

This is what is holding me back from a Vassar ED. Vassar’s ED acceptance is not far behind at 38% and Grinnell will be a little more competitive for CS I imagine.

(Note: I know the acceptance rates don’t mean much for an intl. student with aid, but I’m just looking at them just relative to each other!)

Given these factors, are chances of getting in with aid as an international student really that different at these colleges? Is that even a factor in my decision here? Grinnell is all good, more than I could ever ask for, but it doesn’t excite me as much as Vassar. And this is ED, so should I hold onto that emotional factor?

Lastly, do chance me on these two colleges. Do you think I have the application and/or “vibe” for these colleges?

I needed to rant. Please do share your advice and/or guide me towards resources/approaches to find out more regarding this decision.

Thank you so so much kind internet strangers!

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I would recommend that you reach out to the Southeast Asian student associations at both schools, and try to get in touch with someone whose background is similar to yours (international and needing aid) and someone who has similar interests in their major (this usually will be two separate people.) They may raise issues or opportunities you have not considered. In addition, the information and understanding you get from those conversations will greatly enhance your “why us” essays for those schools. After emailing/zooming with those people, you will have a very good feel for the vibe of the school.
I don’t know how to interpret admissions percentiles or financial aid for international students. That is something you can ask admissions directly. My S24 visited a flagship in another state that doesn’t have a high percentage of out of state students. We asked the admission director, is that because there is a bias towards in-state. And the admissions Director said, no, we love out of state students, but we have a harder time getting them to enroll. So you never know the backstory behind the numbers. But you can always ask!

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The only thing I would add is that Grinnell is vastly wealthier than Vassar. So an international student needing financial aid, may have a higher chance of admission and generous aid there.

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That might explain the difference in international student populations! Definitely an easy question to ask, and no one at either school is going to be offended or concerned about a student asking questions around those topics.

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I agree you may want to investigate the implications of applying as a higher-need international student to each college.

That being said, I personally do not believe there is much evidence of a generic ED “boost”, particularly not ED II. So I would normally say it doesn’t really matter, and you should only ED II if that is your clear favorite among ALL your remaining colleges, AND you do not want to compare financial offers.

And would that be true? Would you prefer Vassar or Grinnell over all your other colleges? No matter what financial offers you might get?

Because to me, if you cannot confidently answer those questions affirmatively, maybe no ED II at all is a good answer.

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Thank you for your advice!! I’ll definitely reach out with these questions

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Grinnell is in a very different place (Iowa) than Vassar (NY) They are just different schools. Do not apply ED just because you think your chances are better in that round or you’ll find yourself stuck in Iowa or miserable in NY when you’d have been better off just applying to all RD and comparing them when the acceptances come in.

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What do you mean by Grinnell possibly being more competitive for CS? I think you can major in what ever you want and they don’t admit by major. It’s a completely open curriculum. Students are very down to earth and collaborative. It’s a wonderful place.

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Regarding inferences with respect to selectivity, note that Vassar’s overall acceptance rate for male applicants was 62.5% greater than that for females in a recent year based on IPEDS information.

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You’re right! Neither of them admit by major

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These are two GREAT schools. I know not a thing about either school’s comp sci departments. What I do know about: note the size of the philosophy departments at the two schools, and the associated range of offerings. Note the size of the psychology departments at both schools 
 and of course Cog Sci draws heavily on both of these. Vassar’s larger student body does translate into more faculty and a wider range of courses.

Not sure what part of Maharashtra you’re from, but Grinnell is quite isolated - can be charming to live in a small college campus that becomes its own world!! But if you want to get out 
 automotive transport is required to get to nearby towns, and the nearby towns are still small. (I absolutely LOVE Iowa City, but it is still a small town.)
Vassar is 1.5 hours by commuter train from NYC.

If you do decide to apply ED2, keep in mind that a financial aid offer that is worse than expected according to the college’s financial aid calculators can be grounds for declining.

(Note that pre-COVID Vassar’s international student percentage was up around 17%. They’re slowly working their way back; the class of 2026 was 13% international.)

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Hi,

Thank you so much for your amazing response! I didn’t known Vassar’s previously high international student percentage and their more recent 13%. That does reduce the gap between Grinnell’s 19%.

As for the size and course offerings, Vassar definitely appeals more to me. I see nothing wrong with Grinnell either, and I would be ecstatic if I was admitted, but maybe because I haven’t read enough about it or due to some other non-obvious factor, it just doesn’t excite me in the way Vassar does.

I know numbers can be tricky with colleges, but I just want to be as sure as possible that I’m not giving up a significant chance of getting into one of my top LACs if I choose Vassar.

As for financial aid, the calculators on the both the college websites predict an expected contribution significantly lesser than what we’re willing to afford. But I do understand I can decline the ED if it dosent work out on those grounds.

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So some important notes on this.

If you are looking at the Net Price Calculators, those are not intended for use by international applicants:

https://npc.collegeboard.org/app/vassar

  1. The calculator is intended for U.S. citizens and eligible non-citizens (as defined by the Department of Education) residing in the United States, and does not provide accurate results for International Students.

https://www.grinnell.edu/admission/financial-aid/estimate-aid

Both the Quick Cost Estimator and the Net Price Calculator are for use by domestic applicants only. International applicants may refer to the International Applicants webpage for information about financial aid.

In fact there are different CSS Profiles available for domestic and international students, and both Vassar and Grinnell use both, meaning they use a different CSS profile for internationals versus domestics:

https://profile.collegeboard.org/profile/ppi/participatingInstitutions.aspx

OK, so as an international, what should you do before applying ED? Well, really you should be reaching out to Financial Aid and seeing if you can get them to give you a written estimate. If you have such an estimate and they then offer you less, you can try to negotiate. And if that doesn’t work you can break the ED commitment for that reason.

You really are not supposed to apply ED as an international with a need for aid, only after looking at these NPCs that do not apply to you. And you might think, well, what is the harm, can’t I break my commitment anyway? Maybe, although conceivably they could object.

But also, this is part of why applying as an international with need in ED is challenging. With US applicants, they are expected to have checked the NPC, and a very high percentage end up fulfilling their commitment. If internationals are applying with need without really knowing if the college will meet their need, planning to break the commitment if they don’t like what they get, that is a pretty strong incentive for these colleges not to admit internationals with need in ED. They can’t trust those yields in the way they could with domestic applicants.

And unfortunately, I cannot promise that having contacted Financial Aid to get an estimate will address that problem. But it couldn’t hurt, right?

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Actually, although the NPCs arent exact (in particular at colleges that package loans and Pell) it’s fairly easy to remove federal aid, see institutionnal aid and have an estimate. Obviously it won’t be exact but it does indicate which colleges are worth applying to. If your family makes $4,000 a year and the NPC indicates they expect you to pay $4,000 then you know it’s off limits, international or domestic.
Contacting FA won’t help because for internationals the process is need-aware - between 2 interesting applicants, one with 40k need and one with 80k need they take the former and can admit another one with the same need for the same budget, and will play with the estimates so that they have what they want. These calculations are impossible to figure out ahead of time.

Applying ED for an international student with high need is basically the only shot they have.

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So I would again note the NPC at a CSS college is very likely going to be based on how the college uses the CSS Profile to determine aid, and if it uses the different CSS Profiles for domestic and international students then there is no particular reason to assume using an NPC based on the domestic Profile is going to provide accurate results for internationals–and Vassar and Grinnell specifically say this.

I do agree if an international uses the domestic NPC and it gives a bad number, that is not a good sign because I think rarely is the international formula going to be a lot more generous. But I would be very cautious about assuming if the domestic NPC suggests a number you can live with, that will be your offer as an international too.

Are you aware of statistics supporting this conclusion, particularly as applied to ED II? Like, have people actually compared ED II and RD admit rates for internationals with high need?

I think we may be talking about different things. Getting a written financial aid estimate very likely will not help you assess whether you will be admitted. However, it can help you assess whether you should apply at all. Meaning if the college estimates an amount of aid that is too low for you, you should definitely not apply ED, and potentially not at all.

And then it can potentially also help if it looks good, you apply ED, and then don’t get that amount in an actual offer. They are not bound to stick with the estimate, but if you can’t work something out then you are free to break the ED commitment.

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Yes, among professionals. LACs in particular are more willing to use their limited international-aid budget for internationals who commit to them.

The NPC should be used as you describe: don’t apply to a college where the numbers are bad and assume the result is going to be less generous.
So if the college seems very afforsable (ie , expects $0 from parents and only work study from you), and since you know they will expect proof you have enough for the plane ticket and health insurance + CSS international wants to know if you can access emergency funds from grandparents or relatives ($100, 200), you can see whether it’s worth a shot financially speaking.
For a rule of thumb, NPCs aren’t that far off once you only look at institutional aid - they rarely indicate $0 or $5,000 then expect $25,000. Instead the international rep sends a message to the student or adviser indicating that if the student could find $x,000 they would gladly admit them otherwise limited financial aid budget makes it impossible despite the academic qualifications. (This would happen if the applicant was admitted and considered very interesting but the budget just isn’t there.)

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Agree that reaching out to students/clubs/office of international programs can be great and give you a sense of the vibes!

Instagram is the best way to see what students are up to. Not sure about Grinnell, but you could look up sasa_vassar (south asian student alliance) on Instagram to see pics of events. In the last couple months, there’s been a Diwali celebration, a Mock Shaadi (attended by ~150 people), a big show with dances/music from around the world, and a number of smaller events. There’s also a cricket club and dancing club that partner with them a lot. I suspect you could find similar stuff going on at Grinnell? I imagine if you send some questions to the org, they could put you in contact with someone?

The Offices of International Programs could also send great info! And might be able to set you up in a convo with someone?

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Thanks, I stalked Vassar’s sasa on Insta and ended up connecting with 3-4 students. It was really helpful!

About asking the offices, I was wondering if it’s appropriate to ask regarding statistics that are not available on their website or CDS. Is it okay to ask Vassar’s admission and financial aid office how many international students apply ED with aid, and how many get accepted, for instance?

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I think it is fine to ask. They may not tell you though (either because the admissions officer does not know or because they are not at liberty to share). At Vassar your rep (the one you ask questions of) is not the one that reads your application*, so you can feel free to ask honest questions. Like 
 “I really like Vassar, this is my financial situation, does this make it more or less likely I will be admitted ED?” Asking the question in a polite and honest way shows maturity.

*This was the policy as of two years ago when my D22 applied. I think it is intended to allow students to ask questions without having to try to impress the AO.

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I think that’s fine to ask but I kinda doubt they’d tell you
 Asking shows your interest and that you’re serious about applying anyways!

I’ve talked with them about it in the past, and my impression is that there’s not a number of students they accept, but an amount of money
 like they’ll have $x each year that they award in aid to international students who need aid, and so the number of students fluctuates depending on how much aid different students need.

I don’t know when they determine that number, or how ED/RD factors into it. But a solid portion of my international friends on aid were accepted ED/EDII. I feel bad because this is all just personal experience and hypotheticals – but I would guess that a significant portion of that pot gets used up early in ED rounds, for students they know are prioritizing Vassar (both ease of managing that pot of money with students who will definitely come, and students they know are prioritizing them)?

I have no clue how Grinnell does it, but they have a lot more money per student than Vassar and a slightly higher percentage of their student body receives need-based aid. Plus the higher percentage international
 I wonder if their pot is bigger than Vassar’s is? Or maybe they have a different process, or maybe I’m misunderstanding Vassar’s process, or maybe Vassar’s process has changed


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