<p>I agree with roshke. It sounds reasonable to talk with an attorney first.</p>
<p>From personal past experience, if the other parents were already aware of the past happenings, they will have no problems with the upcoming event. Also, from past experience, contacting the ‘liberal’ parents who do not believe in setting limits are not going to start with a call from you, or even pictures. And thirdly, from personal past experience, these problems cause so much tension and distress in the home that siblings often wish their brother/sister would leave…all of the attention, energy, etc. are directed at a person who, in the siblings’ eyes, should not be receiving such. I don’t think that you would be violating ‘unconditional love’ by sending your daughter to your mother’s to defuse an intense, emotional, and very trying time. On the other hand, possible solutions do seem more realistic in the light of day, and if counseling and boundaries can be set and agreed to by all, then great. I truly understand the need to be able to focus on the other children as well … it’s more than likely an emotionally trying time for them as well. Oh, and one more thing, on their behalf, once their peers hear about the ‘events’, these siblings might be the butt of jokes, meanness, etc. I would keep my eyes open for this possiblity.</p>
<p>Regarding involving the police:</p>
<p>I think it depends on what you have found out. It seems that lots of us are assuming that it involves drinking, driving drunk, etc. You have stated that there are illegal activities. Depending on what the illegal activities are, you may need to consider whether you may be subject to any legal proceedings if you end up covering up a crime that has occurred. That would be the worst situation to put yourself in. Also, how hard it is to turn our family members in for crimes they have committed, and yet, if other members of society are at risk it is the right thing to do. Sometimes people have to hit rock bottom in order to begin the climb out of their downward spirals.</p>
<p>Z-mom, when you decided to post the basic details, I am sure you considered your anonymity. Everyone now knows that your D is engaged in very undesirable and illegal behaviors. I would suggest you consider being a bit more specific. I think you will find that there are a lot of people interested in helping. The consensus of opinion, perspective and advice might prove useful and at this point it seems there is little to lose.</p>
<p>I am sure many of us have been in the same or worse situations. In any case I wish you the best in dealing with these difficult issues.</p>
<p>I am stunned by people’s apparently cavalier willingness to suggest turning one’s own child and her friends in to the police for what, as far as we know, is behavior well within social norms, even if those social norms are not optimal. I have never even heard of something good coming out of a situation like that. Personally, I would consider it only as a last resort, after 50 other things had failed, including kicking the child out of the house, which would come in around #48.</p>
<p>Sure, there are lots of situations where, in retrospect, one might say, “I wish I had taken a much harder line earlier.” And sometimes, a person has to hit rock bottom before starting to rise. But ex ante, taking a hard line, and pushing a child over a cliff to make sure she hits rock bottom faster, are completely unlikely to be the best strategy. Because most problems don’t need extreme measures to be solved, and most people deal with their issues long before they hit rock bottom.</p>
<p>Even in those hindsight situations, hindsight can be wrong, Earlier in the thread, I alluded to one of my relative’s heroin addiction. Of course, by the time she was essentially kicked out of the family for a year or so, everyone wished they had done that earlier. But I don’t know – none of us knows – whether taking such extreme measures earlier would have meant that she got her life together again earlier, or that she wound up dead in an alleyway rather than a successful businesswoman and mother of three.</p>
<p>And the criminal justice system is just about the worst possible mechanism for solving any problem. It’s necessary, but it doesn’t solve a thing. Other than in really extreme situations – murder, manhunt – I cannot imagine anything good coming out of voluntarily subjecting one’s child to it, except by sheer dumb luck.</p>
<p>JHS, very well said and I agree with most of your post. I do think that if a young adult or teen did get into trouble with law enforcement by being caught “in the act”, that would be discourage future illegal and undesirable behavior (ie: underage drinking, drinking and driving, etc.). In other words, 6 mos. to a 12 mos. without a driver’s license, appearing before judge, paying fines, being sentenced to community service, being assigned a PO, needing to take more classes about the perils of substance abuse and paying for it out of ones own pocket can make one think twice. Oh, and I did not even mention the costs of a young person possibly hiring an attorney. Perhaps also having auto insurance rates skyrocket, and not being able to get student loans if one were convicted of a drug charge are also possible wake up calls.</p>
<p>JHS - very well said. I 100% agree with you.</p>
<p>Perhaps if someone had turned these parents in, an 18-year-old would still be alive and the parents who hosted the party wouldn’t be jailed for a felony, and the two 17-year-old teens who killed the boy wouldn’t be facing prison for murder charges.</p>
<p>"SARASOTA, Fla. (AP) – Authorities say the parents who hosted a party in Sarasota that ended with the death of an 18-year-old are behind bars.</p>
<p>A sheriff’s office report says 41-year-old Max Herrera and 44-year-old Beverly Herrera were arrested Thursday. They allegedly bought beer for the party in July. They each face a felony charge of neglect of a child, as well as misdemeanor charges of open house party and contributing to the delinquency of a minor.</p>
<p>Authorities say a group of teens started a brawl outside the house that night, killing Gregory Kennedy. The medical examiner’s office says the 18-year-old was killed by a blow to the head."</p>
<p>Northstarmom: Fair enough, I guess. Perhaps.</p>
<p>But perhaps if everyone turned in every parent who might someday be in that situation, and if the authorities actually did anything about all those calls, we would need to build an enormous number of additional jail (and maybe prison) cells, and then deal with the fallout from subjecting all of their other children to our marvelously functioning foster care system. And we would have the kind of community values that were fostered in Nazi Germany, the DDR, the PRC, the USSR, with all of the benefits that entails.</p>
<p>Oh. And the kids might well have gotten into a drunken fight somewhere else. It happens.</p>
<p>I’m not convinced this is the best of all possible worlds, but I’m pretty convinced that the kind of world you imagine would not be better.</p>
<p>I don’t think that in most cases such parents go to jail. I would imagine that the parents in the article went to jail because the underaged drinking party they hosted resulted in a teen’s being murdered.</p>
<p>I think that this kind of police response is typical:
"GLENS FALLS – Five people were arrested early Saturday at an underage drinking party at a Chester Street home, police said.</p>
<p>Three residents of the home were charged with the misdemeanor of unlawfully dealing with a child after police were sent to 31 Chester St. for a complaint of an underage drinking party, said Glens Falls Police Sgt. Keith Knoop."</p>
<p>I also think that if more people turned in the hosts of such parties, people would stop holding them. Those who know the parties are going on, but close their eyes to them are tacitly saying it’s OK to break the law. </p>
<p>I don’t think it’s OK to break the law. I find it particularly reprehensible when parents host these parties for their kids.</p>
<p>Turning in someone for hosting an underaged party may help the person avoid this kind of result:
" In one case, a Pennsylvania parent was sentenced to a 1- to 4.5-year prison term for involuntary manslaughter after three teens died in a drunk-driving accident following a party the parent hosted. Although the parent did not buy the alcohol for the party, the parent did allow the teens to drink the alcohol that was present."
[Underage</a> drinking laws, parent role, A Family Guide](<a href=“http://family.samhsa.gov/set/prosecuting.aspx]Underage”>http://family.samhsa.gov/set/prosecuting.aspx)</p>
<p>JHS, I agree with you completely.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Please don’t assume that because it’s not the case. I thought I had actually made that clear in a respons to the change over the years in driking age.</p>
<p>ZM, I am a HS student. I cannot speak from motherly experience, because 1) I’m too young, and 2) I’m not a woman. However, I can speak from my own. I have seen bad things happen. Parties in my area generally are rowdy, but not violent or dangerous beyond alcohol and kids, which is rarely, if ever, a good combination. Recently, pictures of a humongous keg party with booze bottles carpeting the floor completely appeared on a social networking site. If someone had gotten hurt or one of the kids had been in an accident while driving afterward, there would have been major problems. At another party, the host got brought into the police station, and there were no laws broken beyond underage drinking.</p>
<p>You have already established that your daughter’s behavior (and that of her friends) is far more dangerous and very illegal. I honestly cannot even guess what it is, but it sounds bad. If there is any chance of someone getting hurt, I, as a student, would want you to contact the authorities or the parents immediately. What if someone got seriously injured or even died? Coming back to school without a good friend would be an awful experience, especially if I knew about the behavior. Sometimes parents need to take action when kids won’t, and don’t want you to. Even if they are not your kids, you are involved in this simply by knowing that it is going to happen. Please, please, tell the parents. If they do not listen, tell the police immediately. If it is as bad as you say, you could really be saving a life. Or lives.</p>
<p>However, my opinion is a bit warped. I have no tolerance for any illegal behavior of any kind, including underage drinking and drug use. However, if there is a safety risk, you absolutely must let the parents know, and if that doesn’t work, please go to the police.</p>
<p>I agree with Northstarmom. If I knew someone was hosting a party with underaged drinking, and a kid or innocent motorist was killed as a result of that party, and I had done nothing, I would feel very guilty. (I use this just as an example, I don’t mean to imply that this is the situation ZM is dealing with!)</p>
<p>“All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.” - Edmund Burke.</p>
<p>As a high school parent, I’m getting tired of my fellow parents who turn a blind eye because they don’t think it’s a big deal, or they want to be their kids’ friend, or its easier to ignore the issue than to get into a power struggle with their kid. Who is in charge here? Why is this generation of parents afraid to PARENT their teens? No one said parenting would be easy. Kids have lots of friends but only one set of parents and they need those parents to set limits and enforce them. </p>
<p>Of course, ZM is dealing with an 18+ year old so her situation is less clear-cut. I feel for you, ZM, you’re doing the best you can and no one can tell you for 100% certain what the best path is. But you are trying and you have my support.</p>
<p>Lafalum, I have seen many parents turn a blind eye. I am tired of it as well. The reasons are many. </p>
<p>I think that we are seeing mixed messages. For example, underage drinking is illegal. On some college campuses, you try it and you are out. At others, there is illegal drinking just “off campus” and I do not know the exact numbers, but many get away with frequent partying for every individual that is caught and held accountable. On some campuses if you are caught you have many chances. You might be warned, then you might have several fines, but the behavior is continues because the penalty is not stiff enough. At other schools, there is a 3 strike policy. I see these variations as mixed messages to students and parents. </p>
<p>If one turns their child in there is an unknown. I think that some parents would welcome something a bit stronger than a slap on the wrist, but are not willing to pay large fines and higher auto insurance. Yes, one could say that kid is the one punished so he/she should pay. The reality dictates that there is only one pot of money. If kiddo works hard and earns 3000 over the summer (tied to getting a job in this economy btw), and they pay for the higher auto insurance, fines, etc., now they won’t have money for books that they were to pay for. As we all know, not every student earns the 3k for “fun”, and parents can just tell them that they will now need to cancel their trip to Cancun. So, the bottom line is, that parents who might be living paycheck to paycheck or worse, may not want to punish themselves for their kid’s stupidity.</p>
<p>In our area, if a student were turned in for drinking underage and still in high school, the high school would more than likely be notified. There may be a suspension involved. Parents fear hurting their child’s future as far as “having a record” even if this is a blemish in hs records. They worry about them not being able to participate in high school events and getting kicked off of teams or the honor society. They worry about teacher recs. They worry about their driver’s license being pulled if it effects their work schedules to drive their sons or daughters. </p>
<p>In summary, these are some of the reasons that I see for parents turning a blind eye, besides the idea that they drank legally at 18, so it really is not a big deal anyway (no, I do not agree with this). The entire situation is frustrating, because I do feel that our youth are getting very mixed messages from society.</p>
<p>Is it possible you fly over there to bring your DD home first and deal with other issues later if you think it’s dangerous for her to stay there?</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I want to make clear that my comments before were not directed at zoosermom. On the whole, I worry about zooserprivacy here, and for me this has morphed into a discussion about general principles. I think the zooseradults have gotten a good airing of practical, concerned advice from all sorts of different perspectives, and I no longer have anything to add to that. I’m positive that zoosermom herself can translate what people have said into the facts of her family’s situation without giving us more lurid details than she wants to.</p></li>
<li><p>Re what northeast mom says – Although it looks like she and I are on opposite sides of this (and we may really be), there is little that she says that I disagree with. I do NOT favor turning a blind eye towards any self-destructive or others-endangering activity. I just think there’s a lot of spectrum between “turning a blind eye” and “dropping a dime”. In my mind, parents have an obligation to be parents, and it’s equally a violation of that obligation if they completely back off or if they pass the buck to the State before trying their best to work things out within the family.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I also agree that the world sends kids mixed messages, and that I may often be accused of that personally. Especially by those who like their messages very, very clear. I’m sort of a mixed-messages kind of guy by nature. Nonetheless, please believe that I have tried very hard to raise children who will not kill your children, or anyone else.</p>
<p>But I think northeastmom is overly sanguine about drinking in college. I do not believe that there are ANY college campuses where “you try it and you are out”. Maybe there are college campuses where “you try it and you are out IF you get caught”, but that’s a somewhat more mixed message.</p>
<p>JHS, I actually think that we are very much on the same page. I agree with your post. I just wanted to add that if one gets caught for something like drinking underage, there are some natural consequences that might put an end to the undesirable behavior. </p>
<p>I meant to say that if you try it, and you get caught, at some schools you will be out. There seem to be schools that do have one strike policies. If you are not caught, then there isn’t anyone to take action.</p>
<p>Oh, and my last couple of posts were not directed to ZM and her daughter. I was just talking about consequences, as well as mixed messages as it applies broadly to young adults and teens.</p>
<p>I’m late to this thread but would like to make one comment. There is a big difference between saying “get out of my house” in anger and sitting down with an erring child and saying, “We love you. We are the two people in the world who most have your best interest at heart. We think you’re in trouble. We previously explained to you we would not be able to have you living here if you engaged in xxx. We need you to know, and we especially need your younger siblings to know, that we mean what we say. You made a choice to continue that behavior and it was an informed choice. You had to know that if we found out we would ask you to leave the house. The reasons we are going to have to ask you to leave are because a) we need you to understand how seriously we view this behavior and b) we want to get through to you how dangerous your behavior is and c) we need to protect our younger children. We love you more than you will ever understand until you have children of your own. We are going to do everything in our power to help you. We are not severing our relationship with you. We are here for you. But until you have made a decision to quit doing xxx, it isn’t going to be possible for you to live with us. We are not throwing you out onto the street. Your grandmother is happy to let you stay with her, etc. We are willing to pay for counseling, etc.” I think this has a totally different feel. This shows love and limits which is what kids need when they are stepping into dangerous territory. I’ve taught parenting workshops over the years. I always encourage parents to emphasize to kids the choices they make when consequences have been established so that kids learn that they are responsible for whatever consequences they encounter and gain a sense of personal responsibility. Also, years ago I worked in a family counseling center and the very wise director used to say that if grown kids choose to live at home, they are choosing to be under their parents rules. If they choose not to live by those rules, they are free to leave. But only those who are supporting themselves and living on their own are truly in charge of what the rules are in their homes. I send you a cyber pat on the back for waiting and seeking counsel before reacting. That’s pretty great parenting.</p>
<p>I’ll keep assuming it’s alcohol for purposes of relaying information.</p>
<p>Having been in a situation where an adult plied my 15 year old and 40 of his friends with umpteen bottles of hard liquor, I strongly caution you against opening Pandora’s box with a) the police or b) other parents.</p>
<p>Your job is to steer your three children to functioning adulthood. Focus on that job. Focus on moving heaven and earth to help z-girl. Make sure that your ‘cures’ don’t hurt the other two children inadvertently. </p>
<p>When that incident happened with my son, 35 of 40 sets of otherwise very clever parents put their heads in the sands. Many told me that my child was the only one who accepted the alcohol. Their children told bald lies rather than disappoint over-achieving parents. It was too sad. </p>
<p>I was in shock when I caught my son but I absorbed the reality. He had the peer pressure resistance of a flea and it was my job to counter that natural tendency with steady, firm parenting, steady firm messages about the importance of health, the advantages of clear eyed experiences etc etc.</p>
<p>Those teen experiences are long behind us now. He’s accomplished and healthy. It wasn’t easy to find creative ways to persuade him to choose brighter alternatives, but we kept at it and it paid off.</p>
<p>You can do this z-mom.</p>