Agnostic & bad public school-- please help w/private school choice

Parent Cafe
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<p>My kind of people on this thread! Don’t worry about your son being brainwashed into any religion at his age- need to start the process young, before they can question the dogma. Your issue becomes dealing with religions that conflict with your beliefs. The Lutheran school is definitely out. I understand your feelings regarding the Catholic ones- but he is beyond those formative elementary years. The Jewish school may add a lot of unnecessary stuff but if they also value education you then should see if they have as much time for it as the other choices. </p>

<p>Your public schools have failed in their job with special needs- reading and gifted. You need to search out private places that can add the extra brain training your son needs. I have no ideas- our state covers this well now. I do know my brother would have benefited from current knowledge. A neighbor’s son with an IQ of 120 had to attend public school for second grade instead of their Catholic choice when he needed too many special teachers, they diagnosed his different brain needs for learning to read and were able to teach him how. Your son would benefit from diagnosis of his needs and intervention. Hopefully others out there know how to find the private resources if you can’t do so by calling your public school. It will make a lifetime of difference for your son if he can learn how to do what comes easily to most of the population. Of course it would have been easiest earlier, but discovering the key to how his brain learns will make it much easier for him when reading skills are the access to knowledge. Your son can’t be the only one needing extra help- perhaps the private school to choose will be the one most up on this.</p>

<p>Good luck. Totally understand dropping religion- I say I outgrew it. Being totally out of culture may be easiest, ie the Jewish school. My H’s Indian/Hindu raised friends and relatives are so far removed from the Christian based culture that pervades even public schools to one degree or another that they don’t understand some of my concerns.</p>

<p>Your main concern is getting your son able to learn most effectively. I jumped on the possible learning disability. Get that taken care of now. Use the school that can best help you with this (not a religion foremost- the Lutheran option). My favorite question is “why”? Was raised Catholic in a liberal Catholic area and dropped it when faced with conservative ways.</p>

<p>I am passionate about my beliefs. Just erased my philoshophy- you all have yours and we don’t need to get into nitpicking how we all differ. There are many of us who understand why religion matters to you. My final words- don’t worry about your son’s being converted, by now your son has been taught by you to think.</p>

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<p>I also second the idea of the lovely parents on this thread. Have we all noticed that no one said, “You will be damned if you…” So many lovely thoughtful responses.</p>

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<p>So many nice posts here, IMHO. It reminded me to add this. When you evaluate whether the Jewish half of the school day is “extra” or not, understand that in some ways it’s an overlap rather than an extraneous load of information and irrelevant use of time. </p>

<p>It is hard for Protestants or Catholics to imagine how Jews teach and study Bible. My description above made it sound surficial, with students reading through the FIve Books of Moses, line by line. That they do, but after reading a line the class teacher then begins presenting all kinds of interpretations, applications, debates by prior scholars ABOUT a single phrase or word. There’s usually a lot of verbal classroom discussion, debate, weighing of ideas. This develops critical thinking and is generally good for students who converse well but read poorly. It’s very verbal in an oral tradition.</p>

<p>That’s different than reading Bible line by line and interpreting it literally. Jewish study is not that. One 40-minute class might cover one or two SENTENCES, but the words are a springboard to see how other human scholars interpreted the words in their own times and what that might mean today. The classroom, especially at Grade 6, discusses the Commentaries on the Bible verses, from l2th to 21st centuries. It is very different than evangelical Christian Bible, also line by line, but requiring belief of every word. </p>

<p>I guess I’m making a pitch for considering that there is universal value in the Hebrew/Bible studies, not for what it teaches you on the surface but what meaning the commentators brought to it. This heady stuff is presented to students as young as 5th and 6th grade. It teaches them to think, question, buddy-study. The highest praise from a schoolteacher at a Hebrew Day school is not, “you got the right answer” but “you asked a great question.” Generally at that age they are presented with one scholar (“Rashi”) so it’s not too confusing, who seizes upon the most puzzling lines in a sentence of Bible and writes a great paragraph about what on earth that might have meant. Rashi had the ability to explain text very well long after the verses were written (he was 12th century French, and wrote in Hebrew with a special script). Rashi;s commentaries help moderns uncode the text lines even today, so they are the “starter” commentator for kids aroudn 5th/6th grades to make some common sense from the Bible lines. </p>

<p>Sample class might sound like this: beginning l0 minutes on a sentence of Bible, translating for tricky words, statement of what the “rule” is. For example, a farmer shouldn’t yoke an ox and mule on the same yoke to pull a plow. (D’oh. Not so relevant…). By the time a good teacher finishes teaching that in an hour, the students will have heard that the idea is to be compassionate to animals; not to put a strong next to a weak creature for the same task/same expectations; how does that apply to human beings? should we expect a strong and weak person to pull the same physical weight in their work? Suppose the “weight” isn’t physical but mental; is it cruel to expect the same of someone with lesser mental capacity? etc. etc. So as you can imagine, a class might spend a year on just one of the Five Books. At that pace, it is slow but deep. Your kid might not ever become a farmer or Jewish, but the ability to look for nuance, and weigh the commentaries of those who explored the nuances in past years, finding meaning and application from texts…that’s what is gained in those “Bible” classes. The Hebrew will be a slow-down for him but likely that’s going to occupy only the first ten minuts of a lesson. Anyway, each school IS different, but hopefully this gives you some talking points if you pursue it with the Jewish school. </p>

<p>You might also teach him that the ethical commandments which apply to all people are understood as the “Noahide Covenant” while Jewish kids are only bound by the "Mosaic (Moses) covenant that has all kinds of specific laws he might not feel bound to observe. The ethics, however, what is expected of all good people regardless of faith (honesty, non-murderousness, honorinig parents…) will likely be helpful in the school culture. Anytime a student is cruel in a Jewish school, the teachers point back to the various Biblical phrases (mitzvot) and it gives the students a code of honor that they understand. When students gossip or bully, they hear about it from their teachers to stop, not because it’s “not nice” but also because they’ve been taught not to engage in “Lashon Ha-Rah” (bad-mouthing); how stealing someone’s reputation is akin to stealing their life, lesson after lesson, with 2,000 years of backup from Talmudic commentators! </p>

<p>I don’t think that is a religious indoctrination as much as it’s an ethical code by which students learn to respect other people in the world. The commandments to follow routines during Jewish holidays and prayer rituals might not apply to your son, but the ethics about treating others is taught, entwined in academics that any bright or kind student can appreciate. In a great Jewish day school, teachers emphasize kindness and compassion among students regardless of smarts, at the same time developing the mind in ways that I think leave public schools right in the dust!</p>

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<p>Just to add to above: My husband, a non practicing Episcopalian, who also an atheist had several social talks with the rabbi who Bar Mitzvahed our son. My husband said that since he didn’t believe in God, religion (other than the family dinners we had, obligatory Chanukah lights, and my involvement in various charities) wasn’t for him because he felt uncomfortable because he was supposed to “believe in” or “feel God’s presence”. The rabbi responded that there are rabbis who don’t “believe” in God. The rabbi’s philosophy was, simply put, do good deeds on earth, treat all people well, and God and salvation would take care of itself. My husband felt so much more comfortable in his belief system. I suspect that there are leaders in other faiths that feel the same way.</p>

<p>I really liked that rabbi. Unfortunately he moved away to another city.</p>

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<p>OP, based on your responses, I really want to recommend you have your child tested by a school psychologist not to label him, but to understand him and know how best to support him. If you are able to do this privately, that will probably be the best route. If not, you can either request it in writing to the current public school and/or look for a university that may offer it to community members. My state’s flagship has school psychology grad students do that testing as part of their training and it costs half of what a private psychologist charges. </p>

<p>After reviewing the testing, the psychologist may have some good insight on which school works best for him or may recommend some measures (accommodations, for example). You could then take the testing and recommendations to each prospective school and see what they’re willing to do for your son.</p>

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<p>I’ll admit I have skimmed quickly through the last pages. I wanted to address the possibility of a learning difference/gifted abilities. I would advise you to run, not walk…grab your son and take the fastest way possibly…heck I’d drive you if you needed it… to a full testing at a neuropsychologist. Contrary to the name, they are not going to test to see if your child is off his rocker. A full set of tests that are age appropriate including IQ, spacial relationships, verbal, memory, visual. One on one contact with a highly trained Dr. who can look for the nuances in your child. </p>

<p>It was the best thing we ever did for our oldest son. The evaluation diagnosed a learning disability we did not know about (he was 11). He was very bright and up until that time had been able to compensate. We were given a roadmap of his brain. What parts were interacting, what parts were having trouble communication, etc. All of a sudden it was something concrete. He was like a cpu full of information with the printer cord severed…written language disability. He learned to keyboard which is a different neurological pathway than long hand. Much, much better outcome for him.</p>

<p>It was this testing that allowed us to get help from the school. Yes, his scores are high, but he has the 20pt deficiency from where he is achieving, from where he could. Then we got help. The best, best advise we got from the Dr. was to keep him in as least restrictive environment as possible. Schools, public or private, find it easier to put kids off in a corner if they don’t fit in the main group. Keep him in the mainstream with other children. They need that constant interaction or they will draw into themselves. Not all private schools have the resources to help a student with a specific learning difference. Check this out. All public schools are required, but many do not have the resources. Sadly many do not believe in the duality of gifted/learning difference. Make sure you look for these in any school you choose.</p>

<p>Back to the school front, something I don’t think has been tossed out there…
Do you have a good public school system within commuting distance of jobs? Is it possible to rent your current home and rent a home for your family in the other school district? You may take a hit, but if it is less than private tuition you may consider it. Also, many public high schools have math/science magnet programs. Check to see if there are any in your county, or surrounding counties. Perhaps you could check into a rental there. </p>

<p>Middle school is a rough time… I must say it does stink for a lot of kids. Your son may get picked on. Two of my three did to some degree. They were so glad to start high school where kids are either more worried about grades, or there are more popular kids and the square pegs all seem to find each other. :)</p>

<p>NOTE: I crossed posts with 2collegewego. If at all possible I would try outside testing first and then go to the school in an effort to get accommodations. The school psychologist is often there to do just as you said…put a label on a child. Once there is it very hard to get off. There are some very good ones, but they are overworked/underpaid, and it is very hard to keep up with the number of students they need to evaluate.</p>

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<p>I learned something new today: some Lutherans believe in creationism. </p>

<p>I am a practicing Catholic, went to Catholic elementary and high schools. In 1965 I entered high school. In religion class, I learned what would now be called “divine intervention”: at some point in the evolutionary process God gave homo sapiens a soul. This was in 1965 using old religion textbooks and taught by even older nuns. In science class, we learned evolution, period. </p>

<p>We were also taught that Adam and Eve and the creation of the world in 6 days was purely symbolic. We were taught not to make a literal interpretation of the Bible, especially the Old Testament. Maybe I went to a progressive Catholic high school. </p>

<p>In any event, I was never taught creationism in the sense that word is used today.</p>

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<p>My personal opinion:</p>

<p>“A” is probably not the best, given being the most expensive, since cost is something you worry about.</p>

<p>“B” sounds very good, but if you wanted to either ensure your son followed your personal beliefs or was at least exposed to other religions, YOU would have to handle that (doable).</p>

<p>“C” also sounds good. Being unprepared for college does not, though. Check out the substance to those rumors. Otherwise, it does sound excellent.</p>

<p>“D” sounds like exactly what you are trying to avoid in a religious school. Especially for a “science kid”, Creationism exclusive of Evolution would be tough.</p>

<p>I suppose you could also do boarding school, but that can be expensive and very hard on the family, and doesn’t sound like what you’re looking for.</p>

<p>If it was ME, I would choose “B”. If I was in YOUR position, I would choose “B” or “C”, whichever the child preferred. Either way, speak with your legislators about the state of your public school. Ideally, that should be the most excellent, and it clearly is not, by your description.</p>

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<p>Actually the kids call it ‘intelligent design’ :)</p>

<p>I’m amazed at the level of discussion they are able to have, respect for others opinions, and the humor they bring to it. In their public school, summer AP lit reading was the books of Genesis, Job, & John. They were spoken to beforehand as to the historical nature. All of them have really had a good time. They have always been taught something, but never left to read on their own and interpret on a mature level. Then reconcile what beliefs they may have held previously. What changed, what didn’t, do they think it’s traditional storytelling, word for word fact, or not a blink of truth? I have to say the discussions they have had over sodas and chips, sitting in basements, yards, or poolside, talking about it has been amazing.</p>

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<p>ellebud, when you wrote, “Wouldn’t that be true of any religious school?” did you mean my comments on the longer day and heavy homework schedule? If so, honestly, in my experience, Jewish day school has a longer day and more homework in middle school than our family’s experience with: (good, suburban) public school, Catholic school and boarding school. (The boarding school day was only long if you counted the afternoon sports and arts activities which were part of the required day.) The school day at the Jewish day school was also longer than the private independent day school one of my kids attended also although they both have heavy homework loads.</p>

<p>I am personally unsure whether a child who may struggle with reading should be put in a bilingual curriculum for the first time in middle school unless there is a pressing reason, which there doesn’t seem to be. OP, if you have your child tested privately, try to find some recommendations from parents. Some neuropsychologists are simply more skilled and experienced at testing and interpreting results. In my experience, the ones who work for the public school can give the tests adequately but their interpretation will be limited to information they want you to have as they try to minimize the services the school is legally required to give. A private neuropsychologist may point out and even diagnose some things that the school system wouldn’t want to accept and then give you recommendations both on what is going on now and what he is likely to need in the next few years. (The school’s psychologist may keep that information close to the vest so you don’t demand additional assistance for your son.) </p>

<p>paying3tuitions, you make <em>me</em> want to go to Jewish day school!</p>

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<p>To clarify if I wasn’t clear, my intention in recommending a neuropsyc evaluation was with a private provider, not the school. As I said it was invaluable to us. As you suggest, information gained by the school my be presented in a manner that suits the school, not your son. Try to get a recommendation. Our insurance payed the large majority. Very little out of pocket.</p>

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<p>From the perspective of a teacher, I agree with 2college about the workload in middle school in Jewish day schools. Kids where I taught were taking English, math, science, history, often a Romance language, plus 3 of the following 4: Bible, Rabbinic Literature, Jewish History, Hebrew.</p>

<p>Aside from having a longer instructional day than the independent schools (two Episcopal, one unaffiliated Christian, and all of them evolution-teaching) where I’d taught previously, the kids also had a truckload of homework.</p>

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<p>I am very familiar with local prep schools (nonsectarian). They give HUGE amounts of homework…often 4 to 5 hours per night. I am not overstating. PM me if you wish the names of these schools.</p>

<p>As a mother of one kid with dysgraphia, dyscalcula, and ADHD, diagnosed by a neurologist, I am very familiar with the challenges of learning a foreign language (without the different alphabet). Many times a good school (forget secular or religious) will work with the child. In Jewish private school my son had special tutoring, just as he did in public school. In our case, we had to fight the public school for the special attention. In the Jewish school it was supplied immediately. (Unfortunately many, if not most, public schools don’t have a lot of special ed funding and will fight giving the “appropriate” education for awhile.)</p>

<p>One reason for pursuing your school district for accommodations is that if the school is unable to provide what your son requires, they must pay for an appropriate private school option. I had several friends who pursued this option. It was a rough fight, but the families involved received funding for excellent private school options.</p>

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<p>Me, too! </p>

<p>Totally off topic: The funny thing is that, even if it had been remotely affordable to us, I would never have considered sending either of my kids to the excellent Jewish Day School near us because of concerns about diversity. In other words, precisely because we are Jewish, I wouldn’t have wanted my kids attending a school surrounded by other Jewish kids. But I can see from post #63 what they missed in terms of educational challenge during their middle school years.</p>

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<p>Re post #73 – I wouldn’t be too optimistic about getting much in the way of support and accommodations in a school district that has cut its science class to half a year in order to focus on raising its reading scores. The law does not require schools to provide services to enable students to work up to their best potential, or to get the best possible education for their needs – and no matter what the “diagnosis”, IDEA doesn’t kick in unless the kid is also unable to keep up without special services. So the OP could simply end up fighting a losing battle with the middle school – it becomes a losing battle because time is on the side of the school. Except in a handful of states, there is no legal mandate to provide services to gifted kids… so the kids who are in that “twice gifted” or “gifted with L.D.” situation are often caught in the middle. They are doing too well to qualify for special ed services but not well enough to qualify for whatever the school offers in terms of enrichment or gifted ed. </p>

<p>Keep in mind that the OP is looking for another school not because her son isn’t getting enough support, but because the public school isn’t offering adequate opportunity to study and learn in his areas of strength. </p>

<p>Obviously it is helpful for the OP to know as much as possible about her son’s learning style and needs – but I had raised the point only in terms of being alert to possible issues that may arise in the future. With the private schools, it is very important to raise those concerns before the student enrolls, because a private school is under no legal obligation to accommodate a student’s learning style or to provide extra services, such as specialized tutoring. So the OP really does need to know the answer to, “what if my kid has problems with the Hebrew?” simply because the Hebrew is such an integral part of the Jewish Day School experience. (It’s not like she can ask that the kid be excused from Hebrew class… that’s just not going to happen). </p>

<p>Although, again… my dyslexic son really liked studying Hebrew, in part because it is a phonetically transparent language. I think he also liked the lack of vowels in biblical Hebrew… it’s one less thing to worry about. But my son was studying in a one-on-one context with no extra pressure, and he liked talking to his tutor about the meaning of the religion and his passage – he probably got just a little taste of the stuff paying3tuitions mentioned – but he also had the additional motivation of being a young Jewish boy preparing for his Bar Mitzvah – so it all had a very personal meaning for him. And he was obviously studying the language at a far more rudimentary level than a Day School middle schooler would be getting. </p>

<p>I would note that my son did pretty well with learning languages in immersion settings. His French pronunciation is atrocious, but he loved his French class in high school (taught with the TPR “total physical response” method) – and he picked up a surprising amount of Thai when living in Thailand for 4 weeks. (probably with equally horrid pronunciation, but I’ve got no way of assessing that). In an environment where he needed to use the language for back & forth communication, the dyslexia really wasn’t that much of a barrier.</p>

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<p>ellebud, I would not have expected a student with your child’s combination of disabilities (math, writing and attention) to have trouble with second language acquisition, especially if the language has the same alphabet. But if this student is found to a reading or language processing disability, it may be a much bigger issue-- especially because he would not have started it when he was little. I really think that a neuropsychologist would be able to give some good feedback. As it is, the Jewish school would have to make some sort of accommodation for the student since he’s not going to catch up with all the other kids. Perhaps with the testing in hand, they will be the most accommodating, who knows? </p>

<p>I must not have been clear. I believe you about the homework. My kids have attended top prep schools and I agree that they were the only ones that rivaled Jewish day schools in homework load. The homework is comparable but, here, the day at Jewish day schools is longer. The other schools my family has attended (Catholic, public and boarding) have not had the homework load nor the longer day. Since none of her choices is an independent top prep school, I suspect that, at the middle school level, he will have the longest day (school day + homework) at the Jewish day school. YMMV</p>

<p>(And I hope I don’t sound argumentative. I’m just trying to clarify. I don’t think there are any excellent options. I do think that testing could be helpful and I think that the second language and the homework load should be considered, especially for a child with significant outside interests.)</p>

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<p>True, some Jewish day schools have longer school days Mon-Thurs ( 4 p.m. dismissals…) but end school earlier on Fridays (l p.m.-ish) as Sabbath approaches. They don’t want kids on busses after dark on Friday coming home, especially in winter when it can get dark by 4:30 p.m. before a busroute ends. If not bussing, the car-driving parents are trying to finish up and be home before sunset on Friday.</p>

<p>Others respond to a more suburban client base that wants kids ready for afterschool sports, so use a 3:30 p.m. dismissal daily, Mon-Fri. </p>

<p>I agree the homework load is usually more at Jewish day schools than public, although by 7th grade the publics are loading it on, too. Because of the dual curriculum, I’ve never heard of “study hall” in a Jewish day school, so homework all comes home.</p>

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<p>I have not read he whole thread, just wanted to add our experience.</p>

<p>Our 2 Ds attend a Catholic school; we are Agnostic.</p>

<p>We are happy with the school. They are warm and nurturing to the students, yet it is a no nonsense place when the children are expected to fulfill their responsibilities and follow the rules. It is night and day compared to the public schools my S attended.</p>

<p>We went this route for several reasons. We were not happy with the public schools my S attended in elementary and middle school. At the Catholic school, there is greater motivation because you’re there because you want to be, not because they have to take you. </p>

<p>At S’s middle school, there were many discipline problems, and the administrators had their hands tied to a degree. The inmates were running the asylum. At the Catholic school, if you are not cutting it, then you don’t stay.</p>

<p>The public school let kids go through academically without much in the way of challenging them. Good enough was ok. Which was not good for my S, who was not motivated to do his best, and developed a poor work ethic and attitude. For him, he was not a great self motivator, and could have used an environment where he was being challenged.</p>

<p>The Catholic school is very inclusive to students of other religions. They teach Catholicism; the non Catholics treat it as just another academic subject. The only time older D was uncomfortable was confirmation year. There were activities associated with confirmation that she did not get to participate in with her friends; I think they assumed she was Catholic and it was awkward.</p>

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<p>I’ll just add another perspective. I only saw one or two posts that align with my thoughts. </p>

<p>Where were live, there are no other choices but our public middle and high school. In fact, I’ll make an assumption that many CC members would not send their kids to our public school. We did and my kids have done fine and went onto top colleges and all that. </p>

<p>However, we had to advocate for our kids to have many accommodations starting in middle school (here that is grades 7/8 and the middle school is not good). Our elem school individualized and met my kids’ needs. I won’t go into detail here but we worked with the school and created independent studies, acceleration (courses taken in the high school in middle school), and so on. There are also long distance courses through Johns Hopkins Center for Talented Youth (each of my kids took one course that way as well). It wasn’t easy to get individual accommodations in middle and high school, but we accomplished it. Also, our schools and our state do not have gifted programs. </p>

<p>As well, our kids had lots of enrichment outside the school day in their extracurriculars (as your son has) and also summer programs out of state (which were not academic in nature, but your son could go to science camps). </p>

<p>Your son’s school is doing the equivalent of a year of science by doing a double block of science for a semester. I would work with the guidance counselor and principal on an independent study in science the other semester and/or taking a science class with the next grade up or some sort of acceleration. I’d look into any extracurricular activities related to this interest, as well as summer programs if he wanted to do that. I’d also look into math or science courses online through Johns Hopkins CTY. </p>

<p>I would not choose a religious school if not religious myself and would not send my kids to a religious school of another religion than my own. </p>

<p>It is possible to advocate for accommodations in a public school setting. We did. </p>

<p>Also, not sure your plans for high school but maybe there is a non-religious private high school near you (not so where we live, nor could I have afforded it anyway).</p>

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<p>My son went to a Jewish day school thru 5th grade. Some teachers were terrific. He was shy and benefitted from the small classes. He also participated in various sports, which he would not have been able to do at public school or community teams. They pulled out kids for gifted sessions as well as others who needed extra help. I cannot say he learned much Hebrew, and at the Reform school, it would have been less. I do think it can be a waste to focus on Hebrew as a 2nd language. Still, my son preferred Hebrew to Spanish, and Latin to both. </p>

<p>The religious education was done in a sophisticated way, ex., talking about possibly scientific explanations for 10 plagues. His Rabbi taught him how to use the internet.</p>

<p>Son did the rest of education in public school. It was possible to make accommodations within the system, but by 11th grade they were fed up. Most of his classes were being taken at the local college, and they didn’t like the expense. </p>

<p>An aside, but he ran into fundamentalist AP teacher at HS, far more biased than any teachers he had in elementary school.</p>

<p>Another popular elementary school in my area is the Unity Church.</p>