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Where do the kids at the Jewish school come from?</p>
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Dyslexics tend to be visual-spatial learners, hence the overlap. </p>
<p>Think of it as a Venn diagram with a very big overlap, with the majority of “visual-spatial” learners also being dyslexic, but with a significant minority of each not sharing the traits of the other group. </p>
<p>The lack of a particular trait doesn’t negate dyslexia – for example, my son, who is dyslexic, did not seem to have any difficulty learning to read music, but my daughter, who definitely is not dyslexic but a wonderful ear for music, had tremendous problems trying to read music – even though she was a self-taught and advanced reader (of words) from very early childhood. But my son is strong in math, and my d. has always had a harder time with math – so perhaps it is the mathematics inherent in musical notation that proved elusive. </p>
<p>Anyway – again – you don’t need a “diagnosis” unless you can see that there is a problem. You do need awareness. A dislike or reluctance to read or write is a symptom, because kids who struggle with reading often don’t like to admit it, and sometimes they don’t really understand that the process is supposed to be easier. </p>
<p>But a “symptom” is not a “diagnosis” – it’s just an indication, something to watch out for. </p>
<p>It doesn’t sound like it is a current, immediate problem for your son – and it also sounds like you asked the right questions and the Jewish school would provide support as needed. </p>
<p>It also sounds like the Waldorf school would NOT provide academic support – since you say that their materials indicate that they cannot accept LD kids – which could mean that years down the line your son either runs into difficulty at Waldorf, or else fails to get needed support if the Waldorf philosophy means that they accept substandard work from him. (I know Waldorf requires a lot of writing, but I don’t know how they deal with a student who has poor writing ability – the general problem that Waldorf-educated kids with dyslexia run into usually impacts younger kids. Because of the delayed introduction of reading & writing in Waldorf, the dyslexic goes unrecognized at a time when a public school kid might be qualifying for early intervention services. )</p>
<p>The brochure for the Waldorf actually states: “We are not equipped to educate children with severe behavioral or remedial challenges”.</p>
<p>So this leaves me “on the fence” because on the one hand, I believe that his writing issues are the direct result of his dislike of reading. But now I am also reminded that I enrolled him in creative writing last year in the summer, and he made his own illustrated comic book in pencil. He made up the people, the dialogues, and while the spelling wasn’t perfect, it wasn’t bad. </p>
<p>I think that reading/writing stink for him, but on a certain level, maybe I’m also just dealing with a fussy kid. When he was a breastfeeding infant, he refused all bottles. I had to leave for a couple of days, and figured “Well, he has to accept the bottle”. No, not my son. He refused the bottle, and I was forced to return at the end of the first evening…</p>
<p>The Waldorf school said that the children copy what is on the board. The Well-Trained Mind and Writing With Ease books actually advocate having children do dictation and copy work to overcome writing difficulties. So on the one hand, maybe if faced with no way out but to write, it would help him. On the other hand, yes, I could see him fall by the wayside. I don’t know that copying will develop creative and critical thinking skills, and how would I ever know if he did if he produces work by this method alone. </p>
<p>My son may never be a willing reader or good writer, but he definitely has talent and potential in the sciences, and math but for his difficulty memorizing the times tables. Without directing him on what to do or be, I feel that I have an obligation to leverage his odds of being successful in those areas. While I’m all for learning by observation, I’m not sure that he could compete against the children coming out of the Jewish school, who would enter 9th grade with a head of memorized facts and their first year of high school science complete. </p>
<p>As for where the Jewish children are pulled from at the Jewish school, I can tell you that I have never met one Jewish family in my neighborhood in the 10 years of living in it. There are Jewish families at my son’s gymnastics and dance schools who send their children to the Jewish school, and the school is in that region. I’m sure that there are other Jewish people in a city close by that also send their children there. I can also tell you that in all of my years of growing up in upstate NY, I have never met a Jewish person whose parents were not at least a little bit college educated, and most were very much so.</p>
<p>And actually, when it comes down to it, it’s clear from my experience with the French mother that it isn’t all about heritage so much as a level of civility and social skills. </p>
<p>In the years of raising my son in my neighborhood, I can’t count the number of times that I sent out birthday invites to the class with an RSVP and the parents didn’t even have the manners and class to respond. I’d have to track them down at the last minute. One year, we had no responses, almost didn’t have the party. Lucky we were at the place, because a parent dumped her child off without any response. No manners at all.</p>
<p>And while my son does consider the children at the public school to be his friends, nobody called to ask where my son was this past week. Nor did these kids call over the summer. Sure, if they see each other at the pool, they play together. But I gave up trying to organize get togethers. Last birthday, he invited the kids from gymnastics.</p>
<p>Even though I was raised in a place where everyone was Catholic, nobody talked about religion where I grew up. The people in my neighborhood are “in your face” Christian. My daughter was miserable because she was regularly confronted by peers and shamed about her lack of beliefs. They roped her into youth group meetings, the Bible club at the public school. When she went to college, she gave up trying, and was chastised on visits home. </p>
<p>On the other hand, within a day of being at this other school, the children are calling him, inviting him out. The mother welcomed me into her home, served me a beverage and snacks, and spent 2 hours in intelligent conversation with me while our children played. She didn’t bring out hard liquor. She also didn’t let her kid play video games because he had not done his reading.</p>
<p>I think people have given their opinion about the situation. You know your child the best. Now, it’s time for you to take all the opinion that’s given and make your own decision. I am not sure if you’ll be able to get any additional data point.</p>
<p>You like the Jewish school. Your son enjoyed the Jewish school. The staff, parents and other kids have already gone out of their way to welcome you and your son. It seems like you and your son are leaning towards the jewish school. Maybe it is time to just take a leap of faith and go with your heart. Once the decision is made don’t second guess yourself.</p>
<p>I agree with mom60 – it seems to me that there’s a social adjustment factor – for both you and your son – and the Jewish school is the one that’s extending a warm welcome.</p>
<p>I think its also positive – for your son – that the teachers at the Jewish schools are gentiles – between that and the fact that many kids are likely to come from interfaith families, I don’t think your son will feel like the odd man out. Just make sure that there will be some flexibility about Hebrew proficiency issues – even without any learning problems, your son would need some understanding as he works to catch up with peers. But they’ve probably had other kids transfer in at the middle school level without prior exposure to Hebrew – so you might ask to get a better sense of how that has been handled in the past. </p>
<p>I’d also just comment that it seems like the Waldorf school was a very long drive for you – given your son’s schedule with gymnastics, do you really want to add the distance + drive time onto your daily routine?</p>
<p>I fear you may be overthinking all of this, OP. Its time to weigh the pros/cons and make a decision. The sooner your s settles in to his new school,the better of he (and you) will be. There will always be "what if"s. Time to stop the merry-go-round from spinning and get off.</p>
<p>I’m pretty sure that the OP has already made her decision. And from everything she’s told us, it sounds like a good choice. Yes, your son may feel a little left out when the time comes that most kids are focusing on preparation for their bar and bat mitzvahs, but he may not be the only one who isn’t. And the preparation is, I assume, done after school in any event, and there’s no reason it should make him feel left out <em>during</em> the school day. If my experience around that age going to a school where the student body was 85-90% Jewish (even though it wasn’t a Jewish school) is any guide, then those who don’t have so much of their free time taken up with bar/bat mitzvah preparation will be the envy of many of their peers!</p>
<p>PS: it doesn’t surprise me at all that the immediate area is so non-diverse, but that there’s also a Jewish school in the vicinity. My first cousin and his family have lived for several decades in a village only 20 miles or so from Syracuse – which has had a substantial Jewish community since the 1880’s; I know this because my paternal grandmother’s parents moved there when they immigrated from Poland in 1884, and my grandmother was born and grew up there (Syracuse High, Class of '05, 1905 that is!) – but where my cousin lives, it’s an entirely different world. Practically Bible Belt territory.</p>
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You could be describing my son at that age. We had him tested, and no concrete diagnosis ever emerged. Luckily, his private elementary/middle school was flexible and supportive all the way, and we suppressed our worry (which took a lot of effort, believe me) while staying involved and on top of things. Fast forward to age 20: He is a fluid, organized, and clear writer, a more-than-willing reader, an accomplished photographer, and an early sports dropout who has done serious wilderness camping and hiking. (And he cooks–what a catch!) He never got less than an A in science, including his first and only college course, and he did almost that well in math. Now his home is in the humanities. He has a busy, inquiring mind, always exploring. I have this very simplistic interpretation: The brain continues to develop in interesting and sometimes surprising ways. Good luck with your choice!</p>
<p>For some reason I can’t get the quote OR the search widget here to work for me today, so I’ll have to hand-quote. Sorry.</p>
<p><<i was=“” forthcoming=“” at=“” every=“” school.=“” i=“” told=“” both=“” the=“” teacher=“” and=“” principal=“” that=“” i’m=“” concerned=“” with=“” program=“” being=“” writing-reliant,=“” my=“” son=“” would=“” have=“” difficulty.=“”>></i></p><i was=“” forthcoming=“” at=“” every=“” school.=“” i=“” told=“” both=“” the=“” teacher=“” and=“” principal=“” that=“” i’m=“” concerned=“” with=“” program=“” being=“” writing-reliant,=“” my=“” son=“” would=“” have=“” difficulty.=“”>
<p>I believe you. The problem is, you have no documentation on paper. Services of any sort cost money. The public schools get access to this money when you enable them to get a diagnosis on your child. Private schools need this documentation because many (including religious schools) generally receive state tax money, and therefore are under the thumb of the public school. They do not generally have services available at their school and have to contract with the governing public district for services. However, if your son doesn’t have an IEP, he can’t get them, and whatever he does get will not necessarily be appropriate for his needs. This is why you need to write the letter. <em>All</em> schools are all about the $$$.</p>
<p><< When we all came together at the end, I did ask my son if he could explain why he does not like to write. He kind of put his head down, and said “Sometimes I don’t know what to say.”>></p>
<p>That would depend on <em>why</em> he doesn’t know what to say. There are many reasons that could be. The principal had no business saying that. He may issues with instant recall, or it could be the subject matter, or a comprehension issue, or theory of mind. Maybe he could not see the bigger picture of the subject.</p>
<p>I am NOT saying this child has an LD - it’s more hypothetical, even as the child’s mother has said herself. But, you know, a neuropsych eval might really do him more justice than you think. This child has all kinds of talents and is good in many subjects. Having raw data on these gives you the ability to request services or gifted classes, etc. based on both his weaknesses AND his strengths. </p>
<p>An eval also might get him social skills help, which a 5th grader with no friends obviously needs. The issues with friends/lack thereof, the writing issues, the visual-spatial learning, and devoted interest to science - these things really jump out at me. I am not going to say on the board what I believe it is, mostly because I have no raw data in front of me to prove it. But as a teacher, I have seen a lot, and many times in children who were born preemie, or had other medical issues as a baby. Please believe me, I do want to help. </p>
<p>I am not sure what the resistance to asking the public school for an evaluation is all about. It’s free. Are you avoiding something? A label, perhaps? Not all labels hurt, most open doors to the cash. Moving after the school year starts? People move for jobs at all times of the year, kids go to new schools at all times of the year. He wouldn’t get into private school? An eval would HELP - if they find out themselves later that they can’t handle his issues, they will not be happy that you don’t have that eval. </p>
<p>AND - He can STILL go to the private school even if your district does the eval - that is what your taxes are for. You as a lawyer should be able to get pretty much whatever you ask for, provided you have that eval in your hand. Parents with no legal knowledge can do it, but they have to fight.</p>
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<p>I’ll admit, I don’t know how it works in all school systems, however testing in our county that takes place to evaluate a students eligibility for an IEP, is done by a series of school and county staff. None of these came close to the complete testing done at the private neurosphych. As a parent who’s been there, this testing was a blessing. The school found nothing that would deem him eligible. The private testing was the key. We don’t have designer insurance and we found someone ‘in network’ and our out of pocket was less than $100 for several visits for evaluation and consultation. Interesting, and I’m going with YDD on this one, I had to answer questions on my pregnancy and delivery with him, early milestones, social development as a very young child, interests in specific subjects. These are things the school never touch on. They are looking at the immediate which can lead to wrong diagnosis.</p>
<p>His IEP was always under the broadest spectrum of OHI, or Other Heath Impairment. The label doesn’t matter, the IEP simply opens the door to services that are determined to help your student. These can be extended time on tests, allowing the student to take classwork home to finish as homework with not penalty, meeting with a teacher once a week who can make sure he’s on task in all his classes. It can be written to require a second set of text books be sent home for the student to use for study and reference (no worry that one needed is left at school, or doesn’t go back). It can require that long term assignments be broken down to smaller segments so the student doesn’t feel overwhelmed or procrastinate to late.</p>
<p>My son is gifted in some areas. The same neurological pathways that make him excel in some things, make other things more difficult. It’s not a mystery. He has a written language disorder that he was able to compensate for until the 5th grade when the majority of work becomes written. It was explained to us it was like having a CPU (his brain) full of information with the printer cord severed (writing).</p>
<p>From this we helped him learn several coping skills and used a different approach to teaching writing. At first, when he had an assignment, he was told to just tell us all about it, say everything out loud. He could go on forever. We wrote ‘bullets’, or short notes. From these he was then taught a form of writing that uses a formula. It’s great for math/science based kids. Write your bullets, organize, plug them in, do some connecting and polishing and you have a decent rough draft. We also learned that keyboarding uses a different neurological pathway than handwriting. Once he learned to keyboard proficiently, he flew. Per his IEP he was allowed to have a netbook in class for notes and assignments. His handwriting by the way is beautiful. The neuropsych pointed out he was not handwriting, he was drawing the letters.</p>
<p>I guess technically he is learning disabled. All I know is his neurological pathways are wired differently. Once I found out what that was, I knew how to help him. Once I had the testing I was able to get him some reasonable accommodations. This is simply our experience. I’m sharing it because I believe it shows that not all children who learn differently are necessarily learning disabled, they just don’t fit in the box of they traditional way students are instructed. However, when this is the case you do need to make every effort to determine what is the best way to help the student learn within the confines of a traditional classroom. They can be very subtle and make a large difference.</p>
<p>I am in no way saying that the OPs son has a learning disability. I am suggesting that as she has witnessed a continued reluctance in writing, it can’t hurt to have an evaluation. The schools professionals will see he is preforming at or above grade level. End of story. If her son does have a different wiring system that would make certain coping skills or strategies helpful, either within an IEP or simply with teacher and parental support, wouldn’t the OP want to have that information? She seems like a wonderful mother that wants the best for her son.</p>
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<p>Both of the individuals you describe were educated in the US. I think you are drawing the wrong conclusion from your sample. The correct conclusion might be that those two individuals were either more talented than you, or had learned how to learn more effectively.</p>
<p>BTW, according to everything I’ve heard, gifted kids are the group that tends to do best with Everyday Math. They often enjoy the conceptual/discovery model and are able to move ahead at a more rapid pace if the school compacts the curriculum for them–as it is designed to allow. (It is also true that school districts with limited funding sometimes skimp on the teacher training required to implement EM properly, with predictable results.)</p>
<p>It wounds as if you and your S have found a home at the Jewish school. Congratulations.</p>
<p>@blueiguana <<i don’t=“” know=“” how=“” it=“” works=“” in=“” all=“” school=“” systems,=“” however=“” testing=“” our=“” county=“” that=“” takes=“” place=“” to=“” evaluate=“” a=“” students=“” eligibility=“” for=“” an=“” iep,=“” is=“” done=“” by=“” series=“” of=“” and=“” staff.=“” none=“” these=“” came=“” close=“” the=“” complete=“” at=“” private=“” neurosphych.=“”>></i></p><i don’t=“” know=“” how=“” it=“” works=“” in=“” all=“” school=“” systems,=“” however=“” testing=“” our=“” county=“” that=“” takes=“” place=“” to=“” evaluate=“” a=“” students=“” eligibility=“” for=“” an=“” iep,=“” is=“” done=“” by=“” series=“” of=“” and=“” staff.=“” none=“” these=“” came=“” close=“” the=“” complete=“” at=“” private=“” neurosphych.=“”>
<p>Every state is a *little different, but IDEA gives them the backing to come to the same end. In our state, it goes by district. You write to the district, request an evaluation. Usually they do it in house, with assistance from county personnel (i.e. agencies). If you don’t like what you get, you can ask for an IEE - an Independent Educational Evaluation - and request that it be done by a neuropsych. They have to pay for that.</p>
<p>It’s easy enough to find out what your state/county/district requires.</p>
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<p>Oh, one other thing - if you don’t have an experienced pediatric neuropsychologist near you, go to the nearest city, or to a children’s hospital. They will have plenty.</p>
<p>Okay, I guess we kind of bypassed even bothering to ask for the IEE and went for a decent eval ourselves. We were given a great recommendation and it has been a blessing. </p>
<p>The neuropsych really untangled and made sense of what the school had been labeling one thing or another for years. It also helped our son’s frustration. He understood that his brain worked in a different way. This was actually interesting to him. He was on board with trying new ways to help (ie verbal brainstorming, and keyboarding). It made a huge difference in how he saw himself academically.</p>
<p>In any event, I hope the OPs son is happily enjoying school today and they are well on their way to finalizing plans for the year. Lots of care and thought put into it. I’m sure he’ll do well.</p>
<p>Ok all, I was sitting here at 6:30 AM, still pondering if I am doing the right thing. I had his Kosher lunch packed, but was still wondering. When my son got up at 7:30 AM, he packed his schoolbag with the assignments given to him by the Jewish school. So that’s where I took him. He asked me to leave him at the door while he trotted off to the middle school wing himself. On the way out, I saw the principal, and told him that they made him very happy last week. He smiled and said to be sure to tell him if that ever changes.</p>
<p>Even though this may not make sense in every way, it feels right to try this. I’m more scared of making a mistake and less forgiving of myself than my son is.</p>
<p>If this doesn’t work out, the public school will still be there. </p>
<p>I can give my son those things that Waldorf does (woodworking, art, music). </p>
<p>After I dropped him off, I recalled how I felt when my daughter started going to Bible studies and youth group meetings with her friend at a religious organization that I objected to. She was a teen, and if it had been my parents, they would have just told me that I could not go. And I would have found a way to go. Even though I wanted to do that, I gave her the freedom to go. We continued to talk about my objections to the organization and I backed it up with outside literature. As hard as it was for me to let her go, it worked out. I was afraid that they’d change her, but by eliminating myself as a source of friction, she evaluated it herself, and continued to come to me with her questions and concerns. </p>
<p>About some of the more recent posts – </p>
<p>To the poster with the son who cooks – how ironic, my son just asked me the other day if there is some program that I can send him to where he can cook. He’s shown a lot of interest in helping me with cooking lately. I told him that he can make my birthday cake this month.</p>
<p>I am not tabling the idea of a neuropsych. </p>
<p>Also, my son has friends. He’s friends with the entire boys team at gymnastics, friends with a little boy at dance. These children do call my son, come to his birthdays, and have come to my local pool for playdates. Their parents are responsive, they chat with me while our kids play, or during classes. They follow up with phone calls and keep their commitments.</p>
<p>Even at the local school, he is by no means a recluse. In fact, he is a talker and a bit of a comedian. One day I sat at a school concert and I had to shoot glaring looks at him because when he was singing in the choral concert, he was also busy entertaining another kid in the audience by singing with funny faces and pretending to play drums at the same time. When he was in the 2nd grade, he was always getting chastised for yakking with the kids in class. </p>
<p>Whenever we encounter kids from the public school, they play with him. To be honest, I feel that the my standards as a parent are the issue. I won’t let him hang out at the park or roam the neighborhood without a parent yet. We’ve got 2 sex offenders within a few blocks, a gang of teens that has terrorized younger children, and a teen substance abuse problem. </p>
<p>It’s not like I haven’t tried to reach out to parents locally. I think that I mentioned that I brought him to a local birthday and the parents and their friends were drinking hard liquor. The father got very drunk, and by the end of the evening was disgusting – racial epithets and talking about feelings that he allegedly had as a 5 year old for his teacher. His wife kept trying to shut him up and eventually just went silent with embarrassment. Now, my son likes their children, and I like the wife a lot. And my son has since been invited to their house to play, but I can’t send him there alone. I just can’t. Maybe I’m really uptight, but I don’t think that drinking at a kids’ birthday is appropriate. And a lot of bad things happened to me when I was young, and I especially am nervous when people drink. But I can’t tell others what to do around their kids or in their homes.</p>
<p>I had this problem with my daughter. She had a friend whose mother dropped her at the mall all day while she went to work. Or dropped her at the local park with a cell phone. I wasn’t going to let my 11 year old daughter do that with her friend. And down the road, things did not go well for that girl. And watching it happen almost destroyed my daughter. </p>
<p>I have a niece who was on ADD meds. When my niece was 16 years old, she and a bunch of friends from the neighborhood went back to a friend’s house after a school bonfire. The parents were not home, and the girl had an older boyfriend. And he brought friends. My niece was rufied and raped by an older guy who had been previously arrested for serving underage kids. </p>
<p>I remember having a 10th birthday for my daughter, inviting all of the girls from her class. One moment there was this sweet little girl named Amy telling me that she’d like chocolate ice cream with her cake. She was the youngest of 8 children born to an older mother. In 6 years, which felt like the blink of an eye, I walked by Amy at a store and she didn’t even know me. Her sweet and trusting eyes were wary and overshadowed with dark eye makeup. What was once a pretty smile was hidden by a cigarette stuffed between her frowning lips. I saw her during school hours. She practically flunked out of school. I feel sorry for her mother, but this is what it is like here. </p>
<p>I wish I could sell my house and just get out, but I can’t. I feel bad for saying it, but now that middle school is here, I know that many of these sweet little boys are going to begin to change now too.</p>
<p>So glad you feel good about your decision and your son does to! I’m sure you feel a weight lifted. Hooray! :)</p>
<p>I’m LOL about the post regarding my college friends were schooled in the US and perhaps just had more aptitude. True, my Long Island friend was schooled here, but my Vietnamese friend came over at 12, so he had to have gotten most of his elementary schooling overseas. Both of those friends were schooled in NYC. The schools there are better there in upstate NY.</p>
<p>In India, you go right from high school to a 5 year Med School program. No Bachelor’s, no liberal arts. I know a man who got his Indian med degree at 22. No debt. If you get a seat at the medical college, it’s paid for. He came here, and now makes 300K working only 2 weeks a month. He also speaks 3 languages. But if you go there to visit, you’ve got to crap in a hole in the ground. I don’t get it.</p>
<p>You must feel extremely relieved. I hope everything continues as well for your son as it seems to be starting out. Please keep us posted!</p>
<p>Donna</p>
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<p>Sounds like roughly six years there, six years here, to me.</p>
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<p>That’s another matter. </p>
<p>Again, congratulations on finding a great school for your boy.</p>