<p>My son’s guidance counselor said he should complete all of his apps over the summer. </p>
<p>Chun King…what the heck? While it is true that athletics can have big pull (not so much in NESCAC as Ivies), you still have to be a decent student. No, you don’t have to be breaking 2000 on SAT’s particularly in hard sports, but for sports like swimming, track, etc. I imagine the academic standard is tougher. Also, all-state really means nothing in a lot of sports. It is how you do with your club team that really matters.</p>
<p>While I strongly disagree with Chun King’s implicit disrespectful attitude towards athletes, isn’t it generally true that Ivy athletes need not worry as much as unhooked applicants about their essays? Or maybe the essay is actually very significant for athletes with borderline academic qualifications, but for recruited athletes with high stats (2200+) as long as it’s not a blow-off essay it won’t be a deal-breaker or maker. </p>
<p>On the other hand, I’ve heard about a Vanderbilt recruited athlete who literally wrote 3 words for the essay and is now playing there. Then again, the SEC and the general D1 LOI process is different, isn’t it.</p>
<p>I have heard the purely academic student doesn’t have to disclose their height, weight, level of personal fitness, time management strategies and PR times at all! Can you believe it! All they have to do is go to class!</p>
<p>The NESCAC schools have a high percentage of student athletes. Amherst and Williams have to recruit student athletes with very high stats. I think it might be harder at Amherst and Williams to recruit athletes within the academic range than at a larger Ivy school. These schools list the stats for all the students, and not just for those recruited solely on academics.
I heard that a top recruit can get in with 1950 sats, if offset by a weaker athlete’s 2100+ sats. A weaker athlete can’t get in with the lower stats. 3.2 and 1800 is a joke for Amherst and Williams.</p>
<p>From what I am reading and gleaning from other families with recruits already in a top school
academic stats definitley count–high gpa, high SAT, essays, recs etc…
The only thing the recruited athlete has is an additional facet in the sport–and if an accomplished athlete with true national caliber potential is applying AND at the same time the team needs that type of athlete then of the 30,00 kids that apply for say 2500 places, then perhaps the athlete brings more to the party than just nice academics </p>
<p>IOW it pays to bring as many real assets to the school not just a list of past accomplishments.</p>
<p>I have not yet read about or met any parent of a recruited athlete to a top school where the student did not have great academics…beyond the urban myth/legend I don’t think the low GPA low SAT ivy athlete exists as no ivy/top LAC school wants to have a student who can’t cut it in the classroom.</p>
<p>“3.2 and 1800 is a joke for Amherst and Williams.”</p>
<p>Sorry, but you don’t know any football players then. There are football players at BOTH Amherst and Williams with SAT’s in the 1800’s and GPA’s less then 3.2.</p>
<p>Regarding Ivies for football…the coaches are allowed to take 2 athletes in band 1 (SAT 1650 or better), 8 athletes in Band 2 (SAT 1800 or better), 12 athletes in Band 3 (SAT 1950 or better) and 8 athletes in Band 4 (SAT 2100 or better). GPA doesn’t matter as much but it needs to be a 3.0. Admissions doesn’t care about anything else. The coaches can pick and choose 30 kids who meet this criteria.</p>
<p>So if what Chun King says is true, then 16 football players in the 1650-1800 band may get to play in the Ivies each year. I think a prudent football player would try and bump to a higher band to increase their odds…</p>
<p>I also am guessing that football has the largest number of lower-band recruits. Bands were not part of the discussion for my daughter (not in football). Matching the stats of the general student population WAS. </p>
<p>You are correct. A coach isn’t going to waste his band 1 pick on just anyone. He will most likely be a quarterback or wide receiver…someone who will score a lot of points. Also a Band 1 player is likely to be of the caliber that would make him a prized recruit for a major college football program (BC, Rutgers, Northwestern, Michigan, etc). Band 2 players are almost always All State players. Look at the Ivy football rosters online and you can see how “decorated” the players were in high school.</p>
<p>My son was football recruit this year and will attend a Nescac school next fall. He went to several prospect days at a few of the NESCACs and heard similar speeches from each of the coaches about the process. I don’t doubt for a minute that some of their top picks athletically were in the 1800 range. But a football coach who takes 22-24 recruits each year can only have at the most 14 slot players, those top athletic picks who he can bring to admissions with lesser credentials. The remaining recruits are certainly scrutinized heavily and are only invited to apply ED if the coach has some certainty that they will make it through admissions with “support” from the coach but on their own academic merits . Even then there are no guarantees.</p>
<p>The strongest players are admitted with low stats. My son knows several kids at his school who get to go to NESCAC’s with much lower stats than someone who is unhooked. A quick look at Naviance reveals a couple of 2.9 gpa’s and 1450-1800 range SAT’s. (Ever seen M’bury’s trophy case?)</p>
<p>As noted above, it does vary with the sport and with the school. Typically there is more leeway for coaches with the helmet sports (lax, football, hockey) and, depending on the school, basketball. This, when combined with variations in standards among the schools themselves even in NESCAC, results in Chun King’s 3.0/1800 or keylyme’s 2.9/1450 situations. I would offer some comparisons between schools and sports but do not want to offend anyone.<br>
But as tempting as it is to generalize or to break admissions into just a GPA/SAT statistical analysis or say that running back X got in because he was all-state, let’s remember that a number of other factors are involved in admissions decisions though the relative weighting may vary. And yes, many will argue that athletic ability has too much weight.
It is an odd process. I am still trying to figure out whether my child’s being a good athlete made the whole thing easier or harder!</p>
<p>Columbia, great comment, “I am still trying to figure out whether my child’s being a good athlete made the whole thing easier or harder!” </p>
<p>D1 is a college athlete. D2 is a HS senior and chose not to pursue her sport in college. Soooo much easier to shop for a school and consider the shorter list: academic qualities, student life, and location, without the complication of team fit, recruiting subtleties, and so on. Yes, athletics gave D1 some opportunities she might not otherwise have had, but the college match for D2 has been infinitely less stressful on all of us.</p>
<h2>Wow, a 2.9 and 1450/2400 at Middlebury? You sure it wasn’t a developmental or something crazy?</h2>
<p>Also, I didn’t want to start another thread for this because it’s a related topic. Call me a little silly, but this is a serious post:
I’m genuinely worried that my academic qualifications (~4.0, 2400) are high to a point that a coach at an Ivy will take a risk and not guarantee me an athletic slot because he’ll think I can get in anyways and that would save him room for another athletic recruit. I know this sounds ridiculous, but having recently spoken to a friend, I found out that this is exactly what happened to a player in my sport and at an Ivy (my currently top-choice school too…). </p>
<p>This player’s AI was quite literally perfect and the coach told him that they wouldn’t give him the athletic slot but they would give him admissions support. Just how strong that support was he never found out, because he didn’t take that chance and instead he athletically committed to another Ivy. And don’t think for a second that it was the 1st Ivy coach’s indirect way of saying, “We like you but not that much,” because he was well within athletic qualifications and was even ranked above players that were officially athletically recruited by the same Ivy. My AI won’t quite be perfect but it’ll be ~235 and now I’m wondering if irony will bite me in the ass. Any thoughts? Besides “What the hell is wrong with this school/society/world?!” </p>
<p>Monster - I think you very nicely tell the coach that given how competitive admissions are at the school of your choice, that you can’t commit without a likely letter in return. If the coach is unable/unwilling to provide the likely letter, I would think you’re probably not at the top of his list of recruits and he’s willing to take a chance on losing you to another school. In that case, if you were my kid, I’d encourage you to look at another school that would provide the likely letter. I think coaches at the Ivy’s are well aware that admissions are crazy competitive and it’s in their best interest to get their top recruits committed via likely letters as soon as it’s possible. Best of luck to you - sounds like you’ll have lots of great options!</p>
<p>Runners, thank you and that’s probably exactly what I’d do in that situation. But the irony of this kid’s situation was that he couldn’t get a likely from the school while kids who were lower academically and on the same level athletically (or even slightly lower athletically) could. And another irony was that the school that ended up offering him a likely is even stronger than the 1st Ivy in the sport. It’s not even me complaining that athletics triumph academics, it’s me bewildered at how the likely letter process created this result (the coach would take a chance on a 240 AI and 8/10 player but wouldn’t take a chance on a, hypothetically, 210 AI and also an 8/10 player). Oh yeah, same positions as well so it wasn’t a question of specific need either. Look, I’m not lamenting for the guy 'cause he’s still in an excellent situation; it just seems absurd, what he was faced with.</p>
<p>Who knows why it happened that way, Monster? Could have been that the athlete’s official visit didn’t go so well - current members of the team didn’t have great things to say about him? Maybe the coach didn’t love his attitude? Perhaps the coach did think he would get in on academic merit and that the coach could get a 2 for 1 deal by giving the likely letter to the second athlete whose academic stats weren’t quite as good. If so, I don’t think that’s a typical scenario in the Ivy’s, though we do hear of it in the NESCAC schools. There’s no doubt that in general you’re much better off having high academic credentials than not! Sounds like you’re in great shape there, so I wouldn’t worry about what you can’t control.</p>
<p>Agree with every single thing Runners2 has said. Especially the “ask nicely” for the likely part, if it’s not offered. The coach has nothing to lose (he can take the next qualified athlete on the list) and you have EVERYTHING to lose if you submit an ED application on faith and lose your recruiting window.</p>
<p>monstor344, I think that you are wiser than most. Being a great academic applicant can be problematic in getting a likely letter from an Ivy. A coach has only a few slots they can use with admissions. They will use it on a slightly better athlete than you who has lesser academic credentials. The coach will gamble that perhaps you will get in on your own. They will then end up with 2 good athletes. If you don’t get in on your own, they pretty much are guaranteed that the slotted slightly better athlete is in. Now what I think often happens is that sometimes there is some movement amongst athletes. Someone may be their favored recruit, but choose to commit to another Ivy etc. A coach may end up using a likely on you after things with the lesser academic recruits pan out. I think the good thing is that you are aware of the unique situation that you are in and since that is the case, keep your options open until either a likely or an acceptance letter is in hand. Best of luck to you. I know how stressful this point in the process can be.</p>
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