Alcohol?

Parent Cafe
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<p>I’d like to address a few issues that have come up.</p>

<p>First of all, to the young people in the crowd: believe it or not, alcohol existed on college campuses (and high schools) way back when your parents rode dinosaurs to get there. We’re not stupid, or naive. Quite the opposite in fact. OMG, they even had POT back then!</p>

<p>I haven’t “forbid” my son from drinking in our home. The subject simply hasn’t come up. OTOH, as he heads out to parties with his friends from high school over the holidays, we DO discuss the issue of alcohol. To the point where if it’s clear that drinking may be taking place, he may plan to stay overnight, rather than hit the road with alcohol in his system. </p>

<p>I’m a pretty strict parent, and I do NOT think that my sons off at college are “little angels.” </p>

<p>My message to him on alcohol has been: if you and your friends drink, do it in a safe place, don’t drive, don’t ride with anyone who has been drinking, and look after each other. This last I have especially emphasized to my young men, with regards to looking out for the young women in any group they happen to be with. Remember that alcohol reduces your ability to make good decisions. Drinking to get drunk is stupid. (yep, that’s what I believe, and I share that with my sons).</p>

<p>Am I sure that my son has followed all my advice? Of course not. Like I said, as parents, we just pray and hang on and hope for the best (including guardian-angels-on-hazard-pay). </p>

<p>Bottom line with the original post in mind - I don’t want my 16 year old seeing his brother drinking illegally in our home (yes, it’s ILLEGAL in Florida, even in our home with parents present) with the approval of his parents. So we’ll live with our double standard and hypocrisies a little longer.</p>

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<p>“4. There’s no unique reason why 21 is a magical age; look at Europe - they’ve got fewer alcohol problems with an 18 drinking age.”</p>

<p>Demonstrably, and unrefutably, false.</p>

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<p>Mom2three - I’m sorry I got off topic a bit, but your thread seemed like an appropriate venue for my question as well. </p>

<p>I will give some thought to your other suggestions - I am just reluctant to impose restrictions on D when she has given me no reason to not trust her. It really isn’t true that she and BF would have many other options if they didn’t hang out with their friends. Their options would be to stay at one of our houses, and that would mean too much alone time for both of them as they are both very social kids. Too much alone time can lead to other problems - but going there would be going very off topic.</p>

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<p>mini: “Anecdotes are not evidence”</p>

<p>There are studies to back up every point I made. Evidence, not anecdotes.</p>

<p>mini: “Alcoholism is at least partially genetic, and providing even small amounts of alcohol to someone with a genetic tendency at an early age is just asking for trouble. Ironically, of course, those with alcoholic tendencies tend 1) to like the taste; and 2) hold their liquor well, which is precisely why parents tend to feel comfortable providing alcohol to the kids.”</p>

<p>Excellent point.</p>

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<p>seafoodlover: "Thank goodness SOME schools are trying to put a stop to it. "</p>

<p>Which schools? Does anyone know which schools are at the head of the class on this matter?</p>

<p>I know many schools now have substance-free halls, which is great for the general population but more is needed to support kids who truly have addiction tendancies.</p>

<p>Some schools are beginning to have RECOVERY programs built into the university housing system. That’s a step in the right direction. Texas Tech has a very innovative program where up to 100 or so students can get a degree and be in a highly supportive 12-step recovery setting at the same time. UC at Boulder is beginning a similiar program (I think UT Austin is as well). Other schools like Rutgers and Brown have something related (although not as well formed). A school in Minnesota has a sober house for a handful of residents, and Washington State has one for four students. Since substance abuse will effect about 10% of all college stuents at some time in their lives, this recovery-on-campus movement is dramatically undersized and underfunded. It is good news, though, that we are seeing some change in the right direction.</p>

<p>I think this is becoming a new thread, so I’ll start one.</p>

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<p>I’m the father of a 19-year-old sophomore at a New England LAC, who is an athlete and who has probably been drinking with friends since 10th grade - which unfortunately was pretty standard stuff at his private high school (and at all the publics in our area, as well) I was in a fraternity at a highly academic, well-known Eastern university 30 years ago, and did some binge drinking freshman year, then met my future wife sophomore year and hardly drank after that. I drink very little now; maybe a glass of red wine with dinner to keep the heart running smoothly. Maybe a beer (or less) during a football game. Based on family genetics, I have never been worried about alcoholism - but I do worry about stupid adolescent binge drinking. To that end, I have always tried to lead by example with my son - and have offered him wine or beer with dinner for several years - but only, of course, if we both know and agree that he won’t be driving that night.
Call me whatever you will, but I really don’t care about the law in this instance. I want my son to know that alcohol has a proper place in the world; that it’s not evil, and that it need not be consumed only in large quantities on weekends for the purpose of getting drunk or comatose.
I think our national attitude about alcohol is dangerously off-kilter, and I think it’s utterly asinine that the drinking age is 21. The laws regarding drunk-driving, on the other hand, need to be enhanced and enforced.</p>

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<p>LIMOMOF2-
You have to make the best decisions you can for your child. I would be VERY concerned if there are no outlets for my 15 year old where drinking is not an activity. It’s not an issue of trusting your daughter and her boyfriend not to drink, IMO. It’s an issue of what are appropriate activities for teens. How about having all the friends over to your house to watch videos? There are high school sporting events that cost very little money. If the LACK of availability of alcohol at such activities makes them unappealing to your daughter’s friends (and are they her friends, or her boyfriend’s?) that would be a red flag for me. What about her pre-boyfriend friends? Does she still hang out with them?</p>

<p>Again, your child, your rules. I know first hand of too many bad things that have happened as a result of highschoolers drinking. This is VERY different, IMO, from the parents who supervise a glass of wine once in a while in their own homes with their own kids. </p>

<p>Despite what your daughter may say or feel, there are lots of highschoolers who get together and have fun and don’t drink. I would be gently steering her towards finding such people, if you want her to remain a highschooler who can have fun and not drink. If she spends all her time with kids who don’t think that’s possible, that mindset will almost certainly have an influence on your daughter.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

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<p>I hardly ever drank in high school although others did. I always said if I couldn’t have fun without a beer (at my age) something was wrong. I hung out with guys and girlfriends and we ate out a lot in cheap places, went to movies, malls, played a lot of cards and board games, did sporting things, etc. but mainly talked a lot. We had long talks doing mindless things, sometimes they were just props, but we had fun.
All the talk of just “not driving” is fine, but drinking causes much more havoc than that. Some students start to slack off and their grades drop, some do embarrassing things, some do illegal things, some women get attacked or have their drinks tampered with. College dorms are receiving heavy damage by wild parties…this is acceptable behavior because they are drinking and not driving? I’m sorry, but “kids will be kids” doesn’t apply here. My parents taught me acceptable behavior…drinking shouldn’t give excuses.</p>

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<p>Gaby3-
I agree 100%. I certainly don’t think drinking and driving are the only downsides to alcohol consumption. Getting drunk enough to cause property damage, and even do REALLY stupid things (every year there’s at least one “dead teenager” story from spring break when some kids got drunk and fell off a balcony at the beach).</p>

<p>The collateral damage from ONE episode of drinking and driving (multiple deaths and injuries, injury and death of innocent bystanders, etc.) is why driving is so often a focus (in the time-honored “please, just keep them alive, Lord” prayer of all parents).</p>

<p>IMO, that focus should NOT diminish the other negatives associated with excessive alcohol consumption, which you pointed out in your post.</p>

<p>Again, most of the parents here (and I apologize in advance if this doesn’t apply to you) lived through guardian angel on overtime moments, and are here to tell the tale. That’s why we worry so much about the big stuff.</p>

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<p>Just think without alcohol, would there be a “spring break” for some? No wild parties, vomit, bare breasts flashed at TV cameras, rooms trashed…such fun… : ) I live in CT and with the UConn deaths, Quinnipiac deaths and a classmate from Duke that died, it hits home quite often. My teen daughters (14/16)are home more than others, they visit friends at their homes and go to movies, etc.,but don’t like the parties. They showed me facebook photos of classmates I had encouraged them to make friends with because they seemed to like the same activities and were good students. They were drinking from large liquor bottles, showing off pouring it down their throats, smoking from a “bong” and posing in lewd photos for the cameras. Granted these were for their peers not my eyes, but when my daughter said, “I’ll pick my own friends, Mom”, I realized she did know more than I did in some areas. I wonder if they realize who can see these pictures?</p>

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<p>I’m eighteen and my parents basically always took the same approach wtidad took (up about 3 or 4 posts). I’ve certainly experimented a fair amount with alcohol, but I’ve never remained in a situation where I felt uncomfortable.</p>

<p>LIMOMOF2 – if my advice means anything, just keep doing everything you are now. Trust your daughter until she gives you a reason not to. She will return the favor and she will respect you. That’s how it worked with me at least. I’d feel horrible if I ever betrayed my parents’ trust. Don’t try to make her find new friends because she won’t. It’s funny to say this, but we teenagers are fiercely independent and if you try to jeopardize that independence you won’t like the results…</p>

<p>It’s true excessive alcohol consumption makes you effectively useless, impertinent, and incapable of connecting with other human beings on any level that’s not superficial. The sooner your kids realize that the better off they’ll be, but at the same time, I don’t think just telling them that will ever get the message through…</p>

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<p>mom2three - I think you are misunderstanding the situation, or I didn’t explain well enough. My D’s friends do not hang around drinking all the time at all - it is a once in awhile type of thing, not an every weekend event. I meant that the kids hang out at each others’ houses (including ours, watching videos or just talking) all the time. She and her friends do go out to dinner and to the movies, as well as to school plays and concerts, but they like to hang out and talk afterwards and they would rather do that at someone’s house than out on the street. </p>

<p>To answer your other question, D does still have her other friends - the older kids in question are boys, but the girls involved are many of her old friends. Not all of her old friends are part of this group, however, and she does get together with them as well. Her best friend is not part of that group, and she spends plenty of time with her. As far as those older boys go, she became friends with them before she and her BF got together, and that is how she met him, not the other way around.</p>

<p>econner, thanks for your advice. I do tend to agree with you and wtidad. Still, mom2three makes a good point and what she says is valid. It’s just a matter of weighing how well you know your kid and his/her friends. I am pretty sure I can trust D and her BF to make the right decisions.</p>

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<p>I have not read all the posts in this thread and forgive me if I bring up issues already addressed, but this is in response to the OP. By the way this is from the view of a 19 year old college sophomore.</p>

<p>Parents are always wondering if they should condone drinking or not for their kids. They always say, “Oh my little Susie/Bobby would never do something like that. I raised him right”. But what I have concluded from observing American family life(from the view of a Nigerian) is that parents do not have such a large hand in how their child is raised, not as large as peers have. Evidence from the stories one hears around the country show that. A lot of American children are so easily influenced by their friends, easily.</p>

<p>Your kids are capable of doing terrible things under the influence. Things that are downright disgusting and despicable. I have seen it living on the college campus. And then the next day they will lie about and say it never happened. They will lie to your face. Even little Susie.</p>

<p>Drinking is not bad. But what people do when they get drunk is terrible. TAlso the things kids to do to drink…worse. Drinking in college is not moderate as done at home(at least most homes), drinking in college is usually to get lethally drunk. </p>

<p>Also, the drinking age is not the only way it is because the government is concerned about your son/daughther. It is that way to put some kind of hold on drinking and driving. When your child drinks I am in trouble. If your child is on the road because mommy or daddy trusted him/her to go to some house party and not drink, I will be the one in danger of dying in the car crash that your child will cause under the influence.</p>

<p>Do you want my safety and the safety of others on your conscience?</p>

<p>Basically, as I said before drinking is not bad, but know that your child is no angel when they leave your eyes. Make clear to them what is acceptable and not…at a young age. If they are already college age and you’ve turned a blind eye to their underage drinking, your child may already be a future attendee to AA meetings. Drinking at a young age does increase one’s likelihood for alcoholism.</p>

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<p>A few thoughts:</p>

<p>seafoodlover: I see that you’re new here. Quick word of advice, ad hominem attakcks, frothing rants about “liberals” and how they’re causing the downfall of society’s morality don’t get you taken seriously on this forum.</p>

<p>This, of course, aside from the fact that you are actually wrong, and it is perfectly legal for parents to serve their children in many states, and thus your entire rant about the rule of law is totally meaningless.</p>

<p>mini: If you have statistical studies that show these things, please link to them. The issue of differences between American alcohol consumption and related issues and those elsewhere has always interested me.</p>

<p>A few questions regarding the statistics you’ve posted about so far (I of course reserve final judgment until I see the actual numbers and methodology):</p>

<p>Did the statistics that show drinkers who start earlier as more likely to become alcoholics take into account the effect of a predisposition of those who start drinking illicitly (and thus heavily) to drink more later? Basically, is it clear that the actual cause of the statistical difference is the younger age start, rather than the illicit beginning?</p>

<p>Were similar studies conducted for the propensity of alcoholism of those who started at 21 vs. 18? Can you justify with such statistics that age difference?</p>

<p>Since your job is related to alcohol, and you continuously make claims of irrefutable facts to back your argument, you need to provide them.</p>

<p>Finally, as for Europe having more drinking problems: so? They drink more. That’s a fact. Does it surprise anyone that a continent on which alcohol use is more common would have more alcohol-related diseases (liver cancer, cirrhosis, etc.)? Even if it does have more problems, though, why is that an argument for banning alcohol until a higher age? America has more problems with fast-food related diseases (cardiovascular, etc.) but there’s no “minimum legal age” for fast food (and before someone starts going on about all the differences, fast food is both not a necessary staple, has been proven t have psychological effects similar to addiction for children, obviously has proven health risks, etc.).</p>

<p>It just amazes me that America is so dysfunctional with its alcohol.</p>

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<p>My d is in her second year of college-almost 20 1/2 (never lets us forget) and at home drinking has been an issue for 2 years with her home friends…my rules: 1. my d picks up the kids ( no more than 5 cause that’s what fits in my car), 2. either I am the designated driver or one of the girls who is not drinking is…this takes away the drinking and driving issue since there are no cars and no car keys. I also told my d that one mess-up on my white carpet(house is for sale),one pass-out and the “party is over”! We have done this for 2 years now and maybe it’s girls, but they have told me that they"don’t want to die" and take care of each other. I always see my d when she is done for the night</p>

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<p>seafoodlover gets kudos from me, not for his/her position on the topic (some points I agree with and some I don’t) but for having the courage to present the opposing viewpoint and make this thread more interesting. This is a great thread, thanks to Mom2Three for starting it.</p>

<p>I have a 19 year old college sophomore who drinks at school with his friends, more heavily than I’d like at times I know. But since my husband and I both did the same and we’re still here (yes it was legal at the time) I don’t think I have much of a leg to stand on to do more than consistently remind him that moderation is what’s important. He is on the campus emergency team, so he gets to see firsthand what happens when drinking gets out of hand. My belief, naive I’m sure, is that the things he sees when he answers an emergency call on a Friday night will do more to keep him in line than anything I might say or do. BTW he tells me they might get 1 or 2 calls a weekend for someone who drank way too much, that’s with about 7,000 undergrads, 4,000 of whom live on campus. He recently decided against joining a fraternity, a decision I have to admit made me very happy.</p>

<p>I have a Facebook account so I can keep track of what all 3 of my kids have on their Facebook sites. Surprised myself one day when the picture on my 17 year old’s site was him with a drink in his hand. When I confronted him about it (I emailed him, I was away at the time), the response I got (quote)was, “mom that wasn’t alcohol, and it was at the sailing team party, the one where I got elected team captain because THEY THOUGHT I WAS VERY RESPONSIBLE.”</p>

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<p>“My choice is what I choose to do
And if I’m causing no harm
It shouldn’t bother you
Your choice is who you choose to be
And if you’re causing no harm
Then you’re alright with me” </p>

<ul>
<li>Ben Harper</li>
</ul>

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<p>The only harm in drinking is in DUI. Why do teens drive under the influence? Because it’s fun? No, not at all. It’s because drinking is illegal and they don’t want their uptight parents to catch them. So, while you may think you are being the perfect parent, and maybe it has worked in your family, it’s that same reasoning that causes the problem. </p>

<p>I believe there shouldn’t be a drinking age, but the driving age should be 18-21, and should take several years of training and lots of money to obtain, so that it is respected as a privilege, not a right. More people die from driving when they are sober than die drinking (excluding alcoholism, which is a separate issue. Alcoholism is very related to genetics and must be addressed accordingly). Driving should be the focus, not alcohol.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Do you even read what you type?</p>

<p>[ALCOHOL’S</a> DAMAGING EFFECTS ON THE BRAIN](<a href=“http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa63/aa63.htm]ALCOHOL’S”>http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa63/aa63.htm)</p>

<p>[Alcohol</a> and adolescent brain development](<a href=“http://www.duke.edu/~amwhite/Adolescence/adolescent5.html]Alcohol”>http://www.duke.edu/~amwhite/Adolescence/adolescent5.html)</p>

<p>[Alcohol</a> and Your Body](<a href=“Health Promotion | Brown University |”>Health Promotion | Brown University |)</p>

<p>So you still want to claim the only harm in drinking is in DUI? I want to see your sources.</p>

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<p>You clearly didn’t understand the Ben Harper quote. I’m referring to harm that affects other people. Everyone is living their own life, and they should be able to make their own decisions. Why should I care if someone wants to drink themselves into oblivion? It’s their choice, and if we truly live in a “free country,” it should matter whether or not I think it’s a bad choice. Once your child is 18, they are an adult, and should be able to make their own decisions. </p>

<p>This country is becoming more and more like Oceania from 1984, with the government making everyone’s decisions for them.</p>