An Interesting Dilemma

College Majors Theater/Drama Majors
1

<p>Okay, so my name is Alex- I’m a girl, I’m a senior trying to chose a school, and I’m trying to decide between NYU (Atlantic) and The University of Evansville. Apples and Oranges. I see a lot of people trying to make similar decisions between the big expensive school and the small less-expensive school, however, in most cases they really want to go to the big expensive school but probably can’t because of money.</p>

<p>I’m the exact opposite of the spectrum. I have the option of NYU or UE, but I’m leaning towards UE, not because of money(Money it turns out is not a deciding factor. I’m paying my student loans either way and my parents will take the rest- their idea, not mine.) but because I want to.</p>

<p>I feel like some of you just gasped and wondered, “Who in their right mind would choose NYU over University of Evansville?”, and sometimes I wonder the exact same thing…I haven’t decided yet, because I still need to visit NYU next week, but I’m definitely leaning towards UE.</p>

<p>Okay, you think, that’s great. Her parents must be thrilled that their daughter really wants to go to the less expensive school.</p>

<p>That’s where you’re wrong. </p>

<p>I just had that “Let’s talk about our options of college” talk that I’m sure many of you had, and though my parents claim they weren’t pushing NYU(not intentionally at least), that’s what it sounded like. They were full of positive things to say about it, all of which I’m sure were true, but the only nice thing they said about Evansville is that it costs less, and now that’s not even a factor. They just kept emphasizing the connections and networking opportunities I’ll have in NYC and how casting directors can come see my shows, and I can usher for Broadway shows, and meet with Broadway managers, etc. etc. Then they asked me how being in Evansville, Indiana would be good, networking-wise, and I honestly don’t know. We went to see The Winter’s Tale at Evansville this past weekend (I thought it was wonderful) and my mother said she thought that my high school shows were just as good(my high school has a fantastic theatre program). The UE campus is a block. Just a block. My father has never visited and says he can’t understand why I want to go to this small small school in the middle of nowhere. (Note: My parents are science/math people, definitely not artsy types who are familiar with the theatre scene/top colleges/what makes a good production)</p>

<p>I realize that I am incredibly fortunate to be in this situation, but right now I would rather not be…I’m just not sure what to do at this point. The networking thing is their biggest argument, which I completely understand. My response to this is that I want to go to grad school after UE, which would open up a bunch more opportunities. If I was given the ultimatum Four Years and that’s it(no grad school), then i’d probably choose NYU.</p>

<p>Side Note: I’m not asking you to choose for me. I’m just not sure what to do at this point and if anyone has advice to put this all in perspecive, to help me out, or to tell my parents in terms of facts(PLEASE. They ask for info proving that Evansville is nationally ranked, but no such rankings exist except in the minds of others(YOU!). I’m not even sure how you would rank theatre schools anyways, in terms of what you would measure.)</p>

<p>Help?</p>

<p>-Alex</p>

2

<p>And also, just so I head these sort of comments off, I’m not making a final decision until I visit NYU. If I like it, great. However, I know I love being on a campus with a dining hall and stuff, etc. But according to my parents, none of that matters in the long run if I can’t get a job. I know I need to visit NYU first before deciding anything. Just so that’s clear.</p>

3

<p>I just went through a similar dilemma with my daughter. For a while, she too preferred a smaller, less well-known school over a big name for reasons that I thought had a lot to do with the next 4 years rather than the career which would follow college. </p>

<p>I was persuaded by asking the faculty at the smaller school what they did to help students find work, how many alumni were working in their fields, examples of jobs held by recent grads, and so on. You should get back in contact with Evansville and ask a few tough questions. If you get the right answers, your parents will be reassured. If you don’t get the right answers, it should trouble you as much as your parents.</p>

<p>About grad school: I am wondering why you would choose a conservatory if you want a graduate education. A BFA should prepare you to enter the job market. The MFA is more often used for students who opted for a BA degree first. Sometimes, the coursework for BFA and MFA students is the same.</p>

4

<p>As far as Theatre School Rankings go you may want to have a look at some of these sites:
[Theatre</a> School Rankings](<a href=“http://www.schoolsintheusa.com/TheatreSchoolRankings.cfm]Theatre”>How Theater Schools are Ranked in the US)
[Theatre</a> and Dance Rankings : Department of Theatre and Dance : University of Texas at Austin](<a href=“http://www.finearts.utexas.edu/tad/admissions/rankings.cfm]Theatre”>http://www.finearts.utexas.edu/tad/admissions/rankings.cfm)
[Best</a> Colleges - Education - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges)
[WikiAnswers</a> - What Universities have the best theater programs](<a href=“http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_Universities_have_the_best_theater_programs]WikiAnswers”>What Universities have the best theater programs? - Answers)</p>

<p>What you will find is that regardless of the methodology used or who is doing the ranking, the same names pop up in the top 10 or 20 lists time after time.
Another way of finding the top schools is by looking at successful actors resumes to see where they went to school and once again you will tend to see a predominance of those schools commonly regarded as the top schools.</p>

5

<p>You haven’t mentioned what type of job you intend to look for. As another poster mentioned, a BFA degree usually prepares you for a career as a performer; most BFA grads postpone post-grad work for at least a few years, until they have had the opportunity to get some real-life experience. I am not familiar with the program at Evansville, but if you hope to be a working actor, I know that the contacts and networking you would get through NYU would be invaluable. I would check very carefully into the other program to see if it offers the same benefits.</p>

6

<p>Why does UE open up grad school opportunities? You don’t have to attend grad school at the same school; you don’t even have to pursue a related major. Many BFA’s change horses completely for grad school. It isn’t a problem. Sometimes you may need to add a few pre req type classes to the master’s program if the major is different. So if you want to attend NYU, you will have great opportunities for grad school anywhere. It’s quite the plum on the resume, no matter the major.</p>

7

<p>My pro NYU position is that I do know someone who is struggling in the NYC market because she does not have NYC connections and all her school connections are in another smaller market. However, I personally think she is not helping herself because she’s really not NYC ready and her best option is going back and actually working in the smaller market. It’s hard enough for union actors with representation, professional connections and a decent resume to find work…it’s beyond difficult for the thousands who come into NYC without any of the above! Many dream of seeing their name in lights and are unprepared for and shocked by the realities of the business. Few actually have the stomach for it, perservere and succeed, and by succeed I mean they are able to support themselves by working in the business NOT that you saw them on Letterman. </p>

<p>I don’t have a pro UE position because I don’t know anything about the program. But I do not believe that you should necessarily choose NYU because of the name or potential connections if you are not ready for life at NYU. Successful NYU students that I know can not only afford to be there but they are all driven artistically and academically AND long for a non-traditional, urban college experience. They thrive on the energy of NYC and cannot see themselves living anywhere else in the world. You are lucky that finances will not play into your decision but if you do not see yourself as being the NYU type you may find yourself miserable there and then be hard pressed to make those connections that your parents think you will be making. And keep in mind that even successful NYU students are not guaranteed to become successful working actors. I know several NYU BFA’s who were unable to find work in the business and are no longer pursuing it.</p>

<p>My best advice to you is to go and visit with an open mind and see how you feel about it. You may be surprised at your reaction and then all this premature worry will have been for nothing. But know yourself and trust your instincts. If you still feel that you want to go to “a small school in the middle of nowhere” because you “love being on a campus with a dining hall and stuff” then I say a smart cookie like you should be able to make a case for it to her parents! :slight_smile: I know it’s hard when you feel parental pressure even when they claim it’s not there! Do investigate your desires for grad school…why do you want to go and what do you want to study? And for career…are you only interested in performing? Could you live a satisfying life performing in an area with good regional opportunities not necessarily NYC or LA? And how realistic are both you and your parents being about what it means to have an acting career? Odds are that you will probably be one of many unable to support yourself by acting alone and it is HIGHLY unlikely that you will be “the one” plucked from unknown Broadway usher to famous Broadway star regardless of what school you go to!</p>

<p>Good luck, Alex! :)</p>

8

<p>I think your mentioning that you want to go to graduate school is an important consideration. The program at Evansville, as you may know, is very much geared towards preparing students for graduate training, and routinely sends its graduates to the top MFA programs around the country. I know Evansville grads who loved their experience there and are now happily continuing at ACT, Brown, and Juilliard (the latter not technically an MFA though many use it as such). </p>

<p>I also know a couple of Evansville alums who chose to forego graduate school, and it’s true they are having a tougher time building their careers here in New York. However, I know many NYU Tisch BFA grads in the same circumstances. It’s true that more opportunities exist for Tisch BFAs to network and build professional connections here in this city, but I don’t think that necessarily makes it a better program or the better choice for you, especially if grad school is a major possibility for your future.</p>

<p>I have to contest the words of some previous posters who say an MFA would be redundant after a BFA. This varies from person to person and often from program to program. Check out the websites for a lot of the top MFA programs and you’ll find resumes of their students listing previous training.</p>

9

<p>I think if you re-read the previous posts, no one has really said that an MFA would be redundant. However, it’s not at all clear what the OP has in mind as a career, and that could make a difference. If she plans to teach, for instance, graduate school is probably a necessity. If she wants to pursue a career as a performer, it is not; however, she may still choose to go on for her masters, either immediately after graduating or at a later date.</p>

10

<p>IanJoseph - It’s great of you to try and share information by posting these links, but really most of them aren’t helpful. The first one is a commercial site that only has listings for “featured” programs, and there are only two listed for theatre, neither of which get much play on the Theatre/Drama major boards.</p>

<p>The USN&WR site will filter to schools with acting programs, but I was unable to find a ranked list. (Could be me.)</p>

<p>The “Theatre and Dance Rankings” are for MFA programs and are from USN&WR in 2007. </p>

<p>The WikiAnswers page is one person’s opinion, with lists pretty much the same as you’d find here.</p>

<p>Just trying to save everyone some time.</p>

11

<p>Ahh you guys are so awesome. Here’s a few clear-up information things:</p>

<p>-I’d like to perform. Teaching is not my ultimate goal, but an MFA to help out with the dry periods would not be bad. However, performance is my ultimate career goal. Now, before you tell me I don’t need an MFA for that and that real world experience will serve me jsut as well, please read on an hear my reasons for wanting an MFA.</p>

<p>-Evansville is not a conservatory, despite the BFA diploma. Not all BFA programs are conservatories, and I made sure to not apply to any conservatories because I know that I want a liberal arts education, and both Evansville and NYU can give me that.</p>

<p>-Yeah, I originally wanted a BA, then MFA, but ironically, I wasn’t accepted into my BAs (Northwestern and waitlist at Vassar), and I was to all my BFAs, even though I’m a really good student. That’s just how it works, and I’m happy it did. </p>

<p>-You can go on from a BFA to an MFA. There’s no rule saying that you can’t, and people do it for a variety of reasons. 50% of UE grads do and 50% don’t. I’ve been looking at various grad programs (ACT, Yale,)and the stats of the graduating class that they have on their website. Most of the kids do have BAs. But, at least at ACT, there were a few BFAs, and one was an Evansville girl. There were two kids from UE, and no other undergrad school had duplicates as far as I saw. And who knows, maybe I’ll end up switching to UE’s generalist track and get a BS in theatre studies (It’s really a BA, but UE calls it a BS for some weird reason…). </p>

<p>-On the previous note as well, I wouldn’t want to go from Evansville straight to “real world”. I don’t think I’d be prepared enough as a person, and if I had to go straight to “real world” after college, then I might pick a more rigorous program. That’s not to say that UE isn’t rigorous, but lets face it, there are other programs that are just INTENSE. I want an MFA because that in itself will help me with connections(going to Yale? Hello? :)) and get me as much training and time on stage that I possibly can get. The ACT kids had at least 13 roles just from ACT on their resume. I could go live in NYC for 3 years and never set foot on a stage. When I go to see professional theatre productions or look at the schooling of actors I respect, they almost always have MFAs. A friend once told me that there are some directors who won’t even consider you for a role unless you have an MFA. Your chances of getting hired increase tenfold just because you have that. They aren’t guaranteed, mind you, but it makes getting work a lot better, so I hear. </p>

<p>-And while Evansville is not guaranteed to get you into a grad school, they have students in all of the big ones that have done really well in them. Therefore, the schools know who to look for at auditions. And for those of you who say its the audition that counts, not the school you’re from, then I’d say that the school obviously prepared them well for that audition that got them accepted into Yale or ACT.</p>

<p>I’ve thought about this a lot, and that’s why I’m anticipating your responses. I feel like I’m subconsciously preparing to tell my parents the same thing when they ask the same questions :slight_smile: I hope that all made sense!</p>

12

<p>If you know without a doubt that you want to pursue an MFA, by all means go to Evansville - especially if you like the small town/small college feel. They pretty much specialize in preparing actors for grad school and are the only college program I know of - including the Ivy League - where it’s not unusual at all for several people out of a class to go straight into top MFAs after graduation as opposed to waiting a couple of years to garner the references. Some programs even go to them to conduct auditions. They have numerous graduates doing their MFAs at Yale, ACT, NYU, UCSD, UCI and Trinity Rep among others and most of them entered those programs straight out of undergrad which is pretty much unheard of. It’s like seriously several people a year. </p>

<p>As for the MFA question in general, the venerable Doctorjohn spoke on the issue a few years ago as follows: </p>

<p>

<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/4273-post9.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/4273-post9.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/training&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Here, also, is a re-quote from Kellster from when I was trying to decide which way to go a few years ago. As a whole, it deals more with the BA vs. BFA question, but it is from the head of an MFA program and notice that he/she recommends Evansville specifically for his/her purposes …

<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/2170193-post9.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/2170193-post9.html&lt;/a&gt; </p>

<p>As far as the BFA as a terminal degree, all I’ve gathered are that there are really only a small handful - less than seven with some saying only two - that truly offer the training equivalent of a top MFA and they are not part of this discussion. </p>

<p>On the other hand, you have David Mamet who is ironically enough one of the founders of the Atlantic Studio you‘d be in at Tisch. He pretty much calls b/s on the whole academic training route in True and False. I don’t know how much association he still has with Atlantic, but I find it odd that he would say all that while being one of the founders of a company that has a Tisch studio. What’s even odder is that I partially agree with him! LOL Before you guzzle too much of that flavor of Kool Aid, however, know that William H. Macy who is more or less held up as the poster boy for that approach spent years studying privately with Sandy Meisner after Mamet got tired of teaching … Did people like Meryl Streep and Laura Linney really get where they are despite their training? Hrmmm … ;)</p>

13

<p>With all due respect, I think it is difficult, if not impossible, for the average 18 year old high school students about to <em>know</em> that he or she will want to, <em>for sure</em> pursue an MFA. I can understand that a kid that age may plan to pursue an MFA right out of the gate after undergrad school, but to know? Hmmmm, not so much. Let’s face it: some kids who <em>know</em> they want to study musical theater or acting through a conservatory or BFA program get into those programs and realize, once they are in, that this is not what they want to do after all, and they leave, or transfer or move to another department and study something else, such as writing, or elementary education or something. </p>

<p>I say this not to discourage the OP from attending Evansville (my D did summer stock last year with a kid from Evansville who was very talented and intelligent and well trained) but to point out that making plans for what is going to happen in five years is a stretch at any age, but especially at the age of 18.</p>

<p>If I were the OP’s parent, I would encourage my kid to closely examine the differences and similarities in both programs. I would have my kid visit both schools and talk to other students and to professors. And then (if money was not an issue, which I cannot imagine), I would have my kid go on his or her gut feeling: where does he/she see himself/herself for the next four years?</p>

14

<p>^^Agreed. It is important not to get TOO caught up in your long term career plans because they are likely to change. Consider them, yes, but choose the school that you would be happiest attending.</p>

15

<p>Sorry for my garbled first sentence. I meant to say “I think it is difficult, if not impossible, for the average 18 year old high school students to <em>know</em> that he or she will want to, <em>for sure</em> pursue an MFA”.</p>

16

<p>I would pick a school that suits you now not in 4 years because you don’t know what changes your life will bring you! My daughter thought the same way you did , with getting a good education and BFA training to eventually get her MFA after graduating. NYU Tisch was her dream school so thats where she is graduating from in a couple of weeks. After her third year at NYU her plans changed. She graduated early and is pursuing film and T.V in LA. She could not be happier and is having some success. I never thought she would do that. My point is you never know what can happen so just look at what school will suit you now.</p>

17

<p>I hate that your parents don’t support you and don’t want you to go to the school you love.</p>

<p>I feel like both are excellent options and I feel like if it were only you making the tough decision, I’d say make an epic pro/con list. Unfortunately, your parents probably won’t be convinced by a lot of stuff you put down on it. I know that the only way you’ll really be able to get them off your back is by going to NYU, and I think that’s crazy. I feel like it’s YOUR decision.</p>

<p>Anyway. You know I have no knowledge in theatre. I just wanted to comment.</p>

18

<p>willl have to chime in as well.
if you really think you will be pursuing an mfa down the line, without a doubt, attend Evansville. While it is not guarenteed, UE is pretty much known as the place to go if you want to get into the top MFA programs. And I honestly think if the difference in cost will be SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than NYU, I would say, do it for sure! If the amount of student loans you will leave with is much higher at NYU, I would pick UE since you are thinking of grad school…
Go with the place that feels right for you…you should remember that while people stress about connections at NYU, if UE seems like the better fit, go there and do a summer intensive or something like that in NYC where you could build great connections!<br>
Hope this helps!</p>

19

<p>Alex, we’re all wondering how your visit at NYU went and what your final decision is in the UE vs. NYU match! :)</p>

20

<p>I’ve got two days. One, really. This could get interesting…</p>

<p>So I visited NYU and felt absolutely nothing. Nothing. The library was cool, I guess. There wasn’t a click, there was no excitement about being there for the next four years, nothing. I was actually ready to leave the tour 3/4ths of the way through and go tour NYC or whatever. However, I stuck it out, thinking maybe my mind would be changed. It wasn’t( and I was keeping an open mind :)) I talked with Chris Anderson, head of Undergrad admissions for Tisch. I visited the Atlantic studio, talked to a lady who worked there in a high-up position(Kate, if you know her). She gave me some advice which I liked, saying that the Atlantic technique wasn’t for everyone, and I just need to find the technique that works for me. She told me to buy their main textbook(A Practical Handbook for the Actor, by the original Atlantic NYU class). I read it on the flight home, and I don’t agree with a lot of it and I can’t see myself doing it(The whole thing about not needing to do character work, thats one of my fav. parts of theatre, and please correct me if I phrased that wrong.). I mean, I guess I’m not opposed to NYU. I love the city, its great, I just couldn’t see myself there next year, or there for school in general. That being said, I loved the thought of living in NYC, just not while I’m in school. I’m not sure what that means. If I were in, say, Adler, my situation might be different, but I’m not, and I don’t want to bide my time in Atlantic for 2 years while I wait to transfer as an upperclassmen. It’s too expensive for that.</p>

<p>Okay, you say, Great! Problem solved! She’s going to Evansville, because her parents said that if I went to NYU and didn’t like it, there would be no more discussion.</p>

<p>Except somebody went back on their promise… </p>

<p>I spent the entire night after the NYU tour arguing with my mother and aunt at dinner about how wonderful NYU is and how many connections it will get me and how I will have so many opportunities in NYC, and how Evansville is in the middle of nowhere and will get me none of that. My father is still pushing it as well, and coming up with the random-est things to entice me, like the fact that my best friend will be in DC, and NYU is closer than Evansville. I’m really just frustrated with this entire process and I don’t think its fair for my parents to praise NYU so much, but to not even bother to get to know Evansville. My father has never visited, and he knows only what my mother has told him, which is nothing good…</p>

<p>I felt a click with Evansville and not with NYU. The discussion should be over, but my parents don’t believe that said “click” matters, and they will continue to override my decision and try to change my mind even though its made up.</p>

<p>I am absolutely sick of people telling me to go to NYU just because no one has ever heard of UE and its wonderful program, just random kids in class telling me to go to NYU, or random people my mother feels the need to ask on the street. She even asked our waiter at dinner once, because he had gone to Syracuse, gotten a BFA, and been on tour in Altar Boys, but was now unemployed. My parents are taking advice from the random-est of people and are treating them as though they are experts. I think they need to talk to the director of Evansville Theatre, John David Lutz, and possibly even some graduate program directors who can tell them the benefits of a graduate degree(NOT the necessity, I realize the difference.) as opposed to some random waiter with a BFA who says “No, you don’t need an MFA” and my mother treats his word as God. No, I know I don’t need an MFA, but I WANT one. and I know that some of you believe that I can’t know that, and that plans may change, but sometimes they don’t. And regardless, I felt the click at Evansville and not at NYU, grad school or no. </p>

<p>So that’s me right now. My father reads this blog, and so if you have any advice for him or me, please give it, and soon. I’d greatly appreciate it.</p>

<p>-Alex</p>