Before you're absolutely tired of these in April-- X vs. Z (for me)

Parents Forum
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<p>social fit is pretty important imo, having one student (greek at a southern school) and another (gay and attending an urban, slightly more sophisticated and definitely more liberal east coast school) Both are in appropriate, but very different, environments.</p>

<p>It seems to me WW has picked the environment and is only asking if Dartmouth is worth the extra $$$. My humble advice: visit W&L again before you make a final decision. Sometimes schools that try to woo students with these major merit awards are willing to do much more than the initial award. Is personal attention/interaction with profs an important factor to you? research monies? mentorships/internships? If a consideration, see if they are able to offer more of what you want in those areas than Dartmouth.</p>

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<p>Wait just a minute you called her in this quote nerdy and a snitch, both of which when said by a group that is ,in your words, palpably angry would be very stinging. </p>

<p>Secondly, I’ll take the report from the officer that the girl stated that she had complained with no result over “the word” on campus.</p>

<p>And thirdly, are you saying the administration talked to the student PRIOR to the beer and bong party in the dorm about other beer and bong parties in the dorm and the fact that at least one dorm mate was complaining? And nothing was done? and when he gets arrested at a party in the same dorm room in possession of 2 ozs. of dope and a bunch of under 21’s and beer, the campus is mad at HER? and he’s still attending school after all these violations of campus and dorm rules? and you think this is a good thing? See how much we can learn from someone with personal experiences with a school? This is better than any guidebook. I’m finding it invaluable.</p>

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<p>“Many go to schools to reinvent themselves. If I want to become wealthy and travel in elite circles I can go to a school that has many of wealth where I will learn their secrets. If I want to become a lesbian I would go to Smith. I would do a smilie if I knew how.”</p>

<p>You know, you could go to Smith for both. :wink: (If you’re male, you’ll have to settle for Yale.)</p>

<p>What surprised me about the Swat affair is that the town police did not call campus security. Are town-gown relations really that bad?</p>

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<p>I have to agree with Jeepmom as to why does this girl have to be considered a snitch and someone who has undermined the Quaker image of pacifism because there was a probelm, she went through the channels to get it resolved, it did not work so she escalated the process? </p>

<p>If it were your child in the same situation, would you feel the same? </p>

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<p>It almost comes off the behavior of the person is with the 2 ozs. of pot and drug parafinelia is being condoned while the student is being ostracized because she dared to air Swat’s dirty laundry? I am quite sure it wasn’t her parent’s buy-in when the 40K for their daughter’s education (whether it was writing the check or getting aid). So is what she thinks and how she feels all of the sudden negated because she did not go along with the “prescribed” protocol Or should she just hope for a contact and move on?</p>

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<p>I don’t know that this is “obvious” or not. It is possible that the RA had brought the student to the Dean’s attention. Apparently someone had. It is also possible that the RA counciled the girl on degrees of reasonable expectation for abstinence on a college campus.</p>

<p>If any student enrolls at Swarthmore with the expectation that there will be zero pot smoking, zero beer drinking, or zero sex in dorm rooms, that student enrolled at the wrong college and did not do even a cursory investigation of campus life.</p>

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<p>That is actually the core of Swarthmore’s policy on drugs and alcohol. They explicitly state that the foundation of their policy is that college students are adults, subject to the same laws as any other adult, and should be prepared to accept the consequences of violating those laws. I suspect that the college’s position toward him is, indeed, “tough luck”.</p>

<p>Like any other good college administrators, I suspect they also wish that students would avail themselves of the full array of on-campus resources (such as calling campus security) before placing anonymous phone calls to the local police complaining of a student smoking marijuana or drinking beer behind a closed door in a dormroom on a Saturday night. As a purely pragmatic matter, they would probably like to see a little more creative thinking on the part of students such as the freshman girl.</p>

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<p>That’s funny. Actually, I’m more of a Fox New Channel/Bill O’Reilly kinda guy.</p>

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<p>Agreed,sybbie. I just keep seeing this freshman girl alone against a bureacracy that is not responding in accordance with their stated policies calling home and asking parents for advice. I can’t imagine a parent saying “Well, just call the school again, dear-they’ll get around to it eventually,and whatever you do-don’t report the illegal activities to police with co-jurisdiction to handle the problem immediately.”</p>

<p>Actually what I keep seeing is my kid as a freshman being pushed out on a ice-floe. Chilling.</p>

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<p>Quote: “If any student enrolls at Swarthmore with the expectation that there will be zero pot smoking, zero beer drinking, or zero sex in dorm rooms, that student enrolled at the wrong college and did not do even a cursory investigation of campus life.”</p>

<p>Now I am really confused. I was almost convinced that schools with fraternities were the only clientele who engaged in such behavior, and that Swarthmore had a campus full of left-handed nerdy unitarian lesbians who did not engage in such behavior and were anti-Greek. Now you are taking away the Greeks claim to fame, - that is the beer drinking and sex.</p>

<p>Come on I’dad, you can’t have it both ways. :slight_smile: :)</p>

<p>Sorry Willywonka, but this will probably really help you in deciding between Dartmouth and W&L somehow.</p>

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Is that spelled out somewhere in their literature? Most schools say that under-age alchohol consumption and possession and illegal drug possession or consumption is a bad thing and not tolerated at their institution. </p>

<p>That is why D is only interested presently with schools with substance free housing and/or enforced dorm rules. She feels that she needs her dorm environment to be conducive to serious scholarship. But I guess there are some more beer and bong party-friendly schools that feel differently. To each his or her own. Informed decisions are the best decisions. This is helping inform me. #1 don’t believe the administration when they say that underage drinking and all drug use are prohibited in dorm rooms.</p>

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<p>direct quote from Swat’s web site…</p>

<p>The use, possession, or distribution of injurious drugs or narcotics without the specific recommendation of a physician and knowledge of the deans subjects a student to possible suspension or expulsion. </p>

<p>there is much more there - this is a one liner that says it all.</p>

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<p>Jeepmom, so I’m confused now. Would that make beer and bong parties with underage students (not one kid) after repeated complaints a bad thing in a dorm housing freshman or a good thing? Remember-it’s “Sat-i-dday nite”.</p>

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<p>Idad - it is really time you took off the blinders and come into the present century - you are defending things that just aren’t so - or are you actually TRYING to rile up this thread??? uuummmm Your opinions - yes we all have our own - appear to be quite one sided here - and pretty condiscending also - you are entitled to your own - but not to shove them down others throats. Respect everyone’s differences would go alot farther - unless you enjoy enciting the reaction you have so far.</p>

<p>Drug arrests don’t just effect ‘adults’ - anyone - of any age - who willingly and knowingly chooses to break the law can be punished to the full extent of that law - including high school kids and college kids.</p>

<p>Read the handbook yourself - and not just Swat’s - read them all - they pretty much all say the exact same thing - it is a guide by which the students are expected to abide by - and stop defending this kids poor choice in life - he made his bed - now he can lie in it. The girl involved does have the choice to call the police - tho I am very sure the school would rather she kept it ‘‘inside’’ the schools processes - she still have the right to do so. Actually - many many many schools offer anonymous calls to the police - it actually does help kids to make the choice to report a crime - OR not.</p>

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<ol>
<li>Interesteddad is definitely a he and not a she.</li>
<li>he is on record as saying he lives in a small town either near or in the Live Free or Die, no income tax, state. </li>
<li>I’m the one who lives in Cambridge, MA and I say that WW should go where he would be most comforable, frat or no frat. He’s already ruled out Swats, so there’s no point in discussing the pros and cons of Swats.</li>
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<p>‘’‘’‘’‘I think one perception on campus is that, if this girl wasn’t smart enough to figure out a half dozen people on campus who would be better to call than the Swarthmore Police, she may not be smart enough to be at Swarthmore.’‘’‘’‘’</p>

<p>She certainly sounds pretty smart to me - her rights are being tromped on by some drug head - she has every right to tromp back - smart girl - stop knocking this girls choice - when ones health is being affected by anothers poor choices - who are you to judge her???</p>

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<p>Since I am guilty of being one of the thread-nappers here - I honestly didn’t mean for that to happen but… - I must apologize to WW for some of the goings on here - strong opinions and rants aside - I really do wish him the very best - no matter what his choice is - and it will be a well researched one I am sure - I know he is going to be a wonderful asset to any school he is considering :):)</p>

<p>He probably left us long ago :(</p>

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<p>That is the primary concern of the student body following this incident. It is well-understood that the Borough police do not go looking to find trouble on campus. However, the college’s end of the bargain is to not slap them in face with illegal conduct such as public drunkenness, etc. It’s a fine line between pragmatic law enforcement and the duty to uphold the law when confronted by an illegal activity. The student body, as a whole, takes a dim view of students undermining this tacit understanding and that would include public drunkenness, making yourself inordinately visible for marijuna possession, or picking up the phone and calling the police because the guys down the hall were smoking pot and drinking beer in the privacy of their own room on a Saturday night. The anger (frustration is probably a better word) on campus is really directed at all parties to the incident for being “stupid” more than anything else.</p>

<p>IMO, the local police used poor discretion in not contacting Campus Security in this situation. If the complaint was odors or ashma, it could have been handled in a more pragmatic fashion. As I understand it, the campus security is quite adept at breaking up parties when they reach the point of disturbing others and the students are generally responsive to such requests. I have heard nothing to indicate this was a loud, rowdy party. I don’t think you can even fit enough people in a Swat double to have a loud, rowdy party.</p>

<p>However, I doubt very much that the anonymous caller had a pragmatic solution as her top priority. I suspect that her goal, for whatever reason, was to get the kid carted off in the paddywagon. Anyone smart enough to get into Swarthmore is probably smart enough to figure out the cause and effect of making that phone call. And, I believe that the arrested student had probably made himself known to the constabularly and they availed themselves of an opportunity when it was handed to them on a silver platter by the Swarthmore co-ed.</p>

<p>I would guess that Dean Gross has probably had some chats with ALL of the parties involved since the incident. He’s one of those deans who has been around the block a few times and is pretty widely respected on campus from what I can tell.</p>

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<p>Update, in response form–</p>

<p>“I know I said I would have loved for you to go to Swat, but, heck, it’s your decision and I understand why you would love Dartmouth.”</p>

<p>You’ve been great to me (and you have a great memory) Achat, thanks. It would be unfortunate for me to want to attend Swarthmore-- namely, because, I got my offer of being put on the waitlist about an hour ago.</p>

<p>“I think you have already had your visit to W/L, you should also plan to go to Dimensions. If you need aid for the trip, contact Cheryl Sprang and she will help you out.”</p>

<p>You’ve been great as well, Sybbie. Dimensions is during prom for me, unfortunately. </p>

<p>“WW’s “profile”, but I believe from prior posts that he was invited to the diversity weekend recruiting events at Swarthmore and Dartmouth. So I don’t think I’m raising an issue from out of left field.”</p>

<p>I’m pretty sure Curmudgeon got this earlier, but I’m actually a white male who was not invited to either of those events.</p>

<p>“I also know, from prior conversations that WW views himself as politically moderate/conservative.”</p>

<p>You’re mistaken. If I’ve ever attached a word to moderate when describing myself (which has been rare), it would have been liberal.</p>

<p>“If the OP gets into Harvard, it would be a terrible mistake to turn down Harvard for WL. Dartmouth would be easier to swallow, but if you like the small-town kind of campus, why didn’t you apply to Princeton instead of Harvard?”</p>

<p>I’ll let you know in a day whether or not I have the opportunity to make the terrible mistake of turning Harvard down, because I surely will be making that terrible mistake if I’m admitted to Harvard. Give me a break.</p>

<p>“I once read a message from WillyWonka stating that he/she would never consider a school that didn’t place a priority on diversity.”</p>

<p>That must have been at least six months ago. That is at least 1/36th of my life ago. Whatever in me that caused me (a he, for reference) to make such a bold statement has changed, as people my age are wont to do-- I continue to enjoy diversity, but am not necessarily attracted to institutionally prescribed diversity. There is so much more to people than race and wealth, and consequentially so many other ways to define diversity. It’s wherever you want it to be. That is not the point, however, because my college search has brought me to a point where diversity will not be the deciding factor.</p>

<p>“It seems to me WW has picked the environment and is only asking if Dartmouth is worth the extra $$$.”</p>

<p>Thank you, very sincerely. It was a question I made off-the-cuff just to inquire whether or not anybody thinks it would ever be a bad idea to turn down Dartmouth for W&L. Some replies have addressed this, and I thank you accordingly. Like I said, I wouldn’t be able to consider Swarthmore even if I wanted to. Luckily for my emotions, I had ruled out attending any school but W&L or Dartmouth at least a month or two ago. I probably underestimated the “ruling out” issue in the original posts because I didn’t think they would be the focus of the thread-- I ruled out Harvard on overall fit, not just competition. I can’t place my finger on precisely why I applied. I suppose a year ago I was even more different from myself today that I figured picking a school for its name was a worthwhile decision. Swarthmore was only ruled out when I realized that I truly wanted to only attend W&L or Dartmouth-- it was no fault of Swarthmore’s. For what it’s worth, there was a lot of discussion about whether or not I’ve spent the 3-4 days on campus at W&L; I have, and it was that time that convinced me that I may not be as “Dartmouth or bust” as I had been until that point.</p>

<p>“Sorry Willywonka, but this will probably really help you in deciding between Dartmouth and W&L somehow.”</p>

<p>No need to apologize, no ill feelings on this end of the monitor. I was horrified when I signed on today to see that there were five pages of replies to this hastily-crafted thread. The original questions were worded terribly, and it was necessary for the thread to take a new direction. There’s a ton of information and advice here, it’s just a little hidden. As it stands, it’s still likely that I’ll be attending Washington & Lee, but I’m not going to jump the gun on declining Dartmouth’s offer. </p>

<p>Thank you all very much, but don’t let me get in the way of the discussion.</p>

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<p>Idad - I have a question or two for you </p>

<p>Are you a non-conformist??
Are you a law-abiding citizen??
Do you believe in the freedoms which our country is based on??
Do you believe in the freedoms and choices we all enjoy??
Do you abide by rules and regs and laws set forth for the masses??
Do you feel that rules and regs and laws are only for the other guy??
Do you follow the rules/laws that you have agreed to in a given situation??
Do you agree with punishments when rules/laws are broken??
Do you apply the rules/laws of society in your personal life and to that of your family also??
Do you make acceptions to the rules/laws when it is convenient to you or effects you/family??</p>

<p>Obviously the drug/drinkin kid in this scenerio - had no respect for rules/regs/laws - he chose to break them - in a dorm room owned by the college on a sat a day nite - in which he agreed NOT to participate in this type of behavior - per the student handbook rules/regs - affecting other residents of the same said college owned dorm - and being aware of the repercussions of his actions. The young lady involved - had the right - just as every other citizen in our free country does - to expect those rules/regs/laws to be followed - and to take action - which she chose to do. </p>

<p>You don’t agree with her actions - is this a personal thing for you??? Is that why you continue to castigate this girl??? Does this situation affect you personally?? This situation not only involved this drug head kid - but others as well - as you stated - underage - drinking - drugging - all of which are against the rules/regs/laws - in some way - of the school involved - you make it sound as tho you support their actions with little regard for the fact that they were all in the wrong - and that others rights had no meaning or concern to them. It matters not which police entity was involved. What matters is that the rules/regs/laws were acted on according to the rules/regs/laws involved.</p>

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<p>Willywonka - ^^well said and thank you.</p>

<p>I really do have to commend you on your response - and patience. I know this is not the easiest of decisions to make - but you will make the right one. You really do have your priorities in line for a young person and I am very impressed in the growth you have achieved in this process. Your learning curve is going to be straight up but I have NO doubt you are up to what ever challange you are presented with - weather in Lexington or in Hanover - they are going to be very lucky to have you.</p>

<p>Good Luck on your decision.</p>

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<p>WW:</p>

<p>Well said from me, too. And thank you for your patience and graciousness in light of the strange direction this thread has taken! It looks like you prefer W & Lee. So, go for it. And people can and should turn down Harvard if it’s not a good fit. There would be fewer unhappy students if they were as level-headed as you are.</p>

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<p>WW, your journey seems like a very thoughtful one. I appreciate your honesty. Seems like you are making good choices, especially in light of the recent info about the lack of happiness among Harvard students. I did a transfer term there as an undergrad and couldn’t wait to get back to my small LAC! Good luck!!</p>