Before you're absolutely tired of these in April-- X vs. Z (for me)

interesteddad · March 30, 2005, 8:52pm

Nobody is disputing the girl’s right to call the police and get the kid hauled off to jail. She was certainly within her “rights”.

I have the right to call the police and report a violation of the town’s leash law when my neighbor’s dog does his buisness in my front yard. However, in the interest of neighborly relations, I take a more pragmatic view of the violation of the law and choose not to report the crime.

As for any LAC prospect on the board. If they are so uncomfortable with underage drinking or marijuna use that they would call the police and get a dorm mate arrested, I would suggest that Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore. all of the remaining Seven Sisters colleges, and all of the Ivy League colleges would all be absolutely the wrong environments and terrible, terrible college selections.

I think I’m on record as being opposed to excessive drinking and drug use on campus. However, there isn’t a dean at any of these colleges who would guarantee (or even suggest) that a student would find a drug-free, alcohol-free, sex-free environment. While I don’t know of any offhand, I imagine that there must be schools that would offer such an environment.

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As for Williy Wonka: I, too, believe that he has investigated W&L and it making the right choice for him. I have assumed from the start that Harvard and Swarthmore would not be comfortable places for him. I just don’t think it is rationally possible to have W&L as your first choice AND like Harvard or Swarthmore. And, it sounds like he’s weighed the Dartmouth option. Once you’ve done your due dilegence you have to go with your gut. I’m not really sure why he was even asking.

ariesathena · March 30, 2005, 9:25pm

Interested Dad,

Why so selective with your stats? Why not throw in the (very consistent) top 10 happiest students? Do you know that even minority students really love it there and are happy?

BassDad · March 30, 2005, 9:26pm

In this case, the young lady in question tried to be neighborly on more than one occasion. The infringement was becoming a health threat by causing asthma attacks.

Suppose that you had nicely asked your neighbor to clean up after his dog and he refused. Suppose further that one day you slipped on this canine excrement and got injured. Do you think you might take stronger actions the next time his dog defecated on your lawn?

sybbie719 · March 30, 2005, 9:32pm

WW,

Congratulations, you have made the decision based on what is best for you. As parents this is what we want all of our kids to walk away with in the college process. I still got love for ya, and I know you will have a great time and get a great education at W/L.

curmudgeon · March 30, 2005, 9:44pm

And I respectfully disagree. Substance abuse is a prevailing problem at most if not all campuses. Certainly it will be at any campus D is planning to attend. We do not have blinders on. Most high schools around here lose a student a year to drugs or alchohol . She’s lost two friends and an acquaintance. I have two friends who will never see their Honor Student son again because of lax attitudes by someone in loco parentis towards underage drinking. They still cry every day.

Some wink and nod at it, some are more aggressive at combatting it. Most parents would want the college to enforce their stated policies. If not what is the point of having the policy? Deluding the people who pay the freight? What else could it be?

At least make it more difficult. Not as one guidebook says of the school you mentioned -“that students remark that they have relative freedom with alchohol.” If the student body has acted as you said-not me -as you said palpable anger toward this girl then they should be ashamed of themselves and you should be ashamed for them.

The difference here is that you are villifying the innocent and calling her names in an effort to make your D’s chosen college (which I’d like to point out I never mentioned. You did.) appear superior to the choice of others. This is consistent with your W+L bashing on this and other threads. I suspect your grudge may stem from your long ago but still stinging hatred of the prep school hellion who attended W+L, but I don’t have all the facts to make that claim as true, so I won’t but I am asking that you calmly consider your motives behind your attacks on a very fine institution. I still hate the Lakers but I least I recognize and admit why.

interesteddad · March 30, 2005, 10:31pm

The campus alcohol issue is not that simple. Knock on wood, but Swarthmore has very low rates of alcohol related problems. For example, an average of no more than one or two students transported to the hospital per year and none of those, at least in the recent past, at a level of unconciousness. The campus is generally regarded as being one of the lighter “binge-drinking” schools around. Drink 'til you puke is definitely “not cool” there. Yet, other schools with far more stringent “enforcement” have much more widespread drinking cultures and far more serious drinking problems. Many people in the community believe that the administration’s policy of punishing irresponsible behavior rather than an unrealistic effort to ban drinking contributes to the low rate of problems.

For example, one of the fraternities disrupted my daughter’s dorm with stupid alcohol related behavior earlier this year. The RAs in the dorm went to the Deans and the fraternity members were sanctioned for their disruptive behavior.

I think what the girl did, without having called campus security or contacted the dean’s office, was a mistake in judgement on her part. My sense is that the campus isn’t shedding much of tear for the kid who got himself busted (after all, he made his choices and should accept the ramifications). Conversely, I think that much of the campus is shaking their heads at this girl’s decision to call the police rather than pursue obvious alternate courses of action.

SBmom · March 30, 2005, 10:47pm

(1)

I think it is unfortunate that kid could not be moved to sub-free housing right away because of her asthma. That would have been better. If Swat belw it, they blew it in not solving the girls problem (if indeed it was reported prior.)

I do not believe in throwing the book at a college pot smoker (or a frat drinker ;)) I think the whole point in college is learning to deal with ones freedom and not all kids are on the same learning curve. Most schools turn a blind eye to on-campus, subdued shenanigans but say you’re on you own if you come to the attention of the local cops (off campus shenanigans.)

Sounds like the girl brought cops into a ‘protected’ enviornment and this is what upset people-- the expectation of a certain lenience inside the “bubble” of the school.

I know the governance at Haverford and assume Swats is similar. There is an elaborate honor code & there is a well-beaten path for dealing with grievances. The girl (maybe with reason) end-ran this.

(2) I think people are being a little too hard on Idad. Even if he does like Fox & Bill O’Reilly. He has a right to a negative opinion of W&L and his stats are worthy of consideration in the decision. Buyer beware; fit is important. But fit is not one size fits all.

JeepMOM · March 30, 2005, 11:06pm

Since Idad has an answer for everything - and that he seems to feel that the rules don’t matter - shouldn’t be applied as they are meant to be - I would hope he would be willing to attend the funeral of someone who dies from status asmaticus as the result of a dorm neighbor breaking the rules without concern for the consequences or others.

Rules are established for a reason and for the safety and benefit of all - and over looking or a blind eye to student behavior such as this - in/on the schools property - is offensive and shows little regard or maturity. If these students want to paaaaarty - take it off campus so as not to involve others who choose not to be involved by any means. This girl should not have to change her place of abode for the sake of a group of students who choose to drink and do drugs - in a dorm!!!

BTW - dog doo and drugs are two very completely different issues.

interesteddad · March 30, 2005, 11:17pm

I think there is legitimate question about the veracity of that motivation.

1) Swarthmore’s freshman housing form makes it VERY clear that you can request a non-smoking dorm.

2) Swarthmore’s freshman housing form makes it VERY clear that you can request special accomodations for asthma, including special rooms in non-smoking dorms with tile floors instead of carpet and in-room air-purifiers.

3) Swarthmore’s Housing Dean is very good at matching special requests with freshman housing assignments.

4) Swarthmore has a very limited number of dorms where smoking is permitted at all. In those dorms, smoking is only allowed in the student’s room with the door closed.

5) Of the dorms where freshman can live, only one small dorm and one wing/floor of a second dorm allow smoking. There are a total of 26 freshmen rooms in dorms where smoking is allowed.

6) With the opening of a new dorm last fall and the return of overseas travel to pre-9/11 levels, there was not a housing crunch at Swarthmore this year.

7) This girl was living in one of the smoking dorms.

8) Even had she ended up in a smoking dorm desite all of the above, students are routinely moved at winter break to accomodate a wide range of housing issues. With the standard number of freshmen leaving school at the end of the first semester, there is leeway to shuffle a few freshmen around to different dorms.

I find it difficult to believe that a student with severe asthma was denied the opportunity to move out of one of the only smoking dorms after having highlighted her desires on her freshman housing form, being assigned against her wishes. I find it difficult to believe that she had brought her asthma to the attention of the Housing Dean at all, even to the extent of simply checking the NO SMOKING box on the freshman housing form.

Somehow, I think there is probably a little something else involved in her motivation.

JeepMOM · March 30, 2005, 11:27pm

IDAD there is NO mention of how severe her asthma is - and you are assuming an awful lot - I was always taught never to assume - and that said - how would you know what she may have or may not have requested - and how would you have any clue as to what may trigger this girl to have an asthma attack - some asthmatics are able to tolerate many things and are well controlled but maybe cant tolerate other things. The ‘‘smoking’’ you mention is pot!!! very irritating to many - so you don’t really have any idea of what has gone on - so your assumptions hold no merit at all.

What i do see tho is a challange to everything that could possibly be occuring - unless you were actually there - you don’t have the facts. The double standard is a wash in a situation involving drinking - drugs and a college dorm. It is illegal - and that IS a fact!!! Kids want to drink and drug - leave campus to party like that or don’t do it in a dorm - simple as that.

Do you allow drinking and drugging in your home - behind a closed door on a sat a day nite - I would bet NOT.

curmudgeon · March 30, 2005, 11:28pm

I never expected I’dad to name Swarthmore and the incident , passages, and quotes mentioned by me give a horribly one-sided picture of her and her students. I did it to make the point that you can make a stat or an isolated incident or an unverifiable quote say anything you want it to. I literally could have picked any school. I do however continue to find the actions of the students toward the so called nerd-y snitch freshman girl deplorable, as I do the actions of the idiot bigot at the W+L student government meeting.

I started out early on saying I thought Wash and Lee was too traditional for me-Swarthmore on the other hand looked pretty good . My D might choose the other way. I don’t know. This choice that WW is making is personal and at this point probably isn’t that stat driven. One size very definitely doesn’t fit all, but who gets to choose and once that choice was made and clearly stated should that choice (no to H’vard and Swat-yea to D’mouth and W+L) be subject to the treatment he received? I voted no.

I learned some things, maybe I’m not the only one. I wish WW all the luck in the world.

JeepMOM · March 30, 2005, 11:34pm

Case closed!!! Enuf said

SBmom · March 30, 2005, 11:52pm

JeepMOM, right or wong, the colleges all give the kids the opposite impression… that one is relatively ‘safe’ on campus & not ‘safe’ off campus.

JeepMOM · March 30, 2005, 11:57pm

Then - as Idad implied - no he actually SAID it - about this girl - maybe these kids aren’t smart enough to be attending Swat either - so goes both ways.

Actually - if one is 21 - it usually is ok to have alcohol in a dorm - tho some schools claim dry campuses and no alcohol is allowed at all. But drugs - that is a completely different story - they are illegal at any age - on all campuses - under any circumstances (unless prescribed by a doctor - as stated even in Swat’s handbook) and is usually claimed as NO TOLERANCE!!! Swat is NO different.

interesteddad · March 31, 2005, 12:00am

I suppose I am.

I am assuming that anyone smart enough to get into Swarthmore is smart enough to check the NO SMOKING box on the freshman housing form if smoke (of any kind) bothers them they do not want to live in a smoking dorm.

I am also assuming that an asthmatic freshmen checking the NO SMOKING box would not be forced to live in one of the 26 freshmen rooms in smoking dorms rather than one of the 159 freshmen rooms in non-smoking dorms.

Now granted, this might be a big assumption except that I know, for example, the housing dean honored requests on freshman housing forms for such things as asking for a roommate from a particular region of the country.

Pragmatically speaking, that is absolutely the WORST policy because now you are exponentially increasing the risk of driving under the influence. That kind of policy is a surefire recipe for getting a bunch of your students killed. In my opinion, the number one goal of any alcohol policy for any age under any circumstances must be to prevent drinking and driving. Let’s not lose sight of the fact that the legal drinking age was raised in this country as due in part to the lobbying effort by the Mothers Against Drunk Driving.

interesteddad · March 31, 2005, 12:18am

What actions? I am not aware of any actions taken against the girl and I would be very surprised to hear of any. She will be spared that by the generally tolerant and sympathetic nature of the community.

I’ll defer to Mini on Quaker principles, but I believe that disagreeing with a member of the community and NOT taking action based on anger would be the more “Quakerly” approach. I also believe that discussing the disagreement in search of a workable compromise acceptable to ALL members of the community would be a reasonably Quakerly approach.

It would not surprise me if members of her peer community seek a discussion with the girl both to express their concerns and help her find a solution to hers. I would not expect any retribution.

curmudgeon · March 31, 2005, 12:28am

Just quoting my source. The anger -on campus -at this girl-is palpable. If you weren’t talking about the students anger toward her, then whose anger was palpable? Are we supposed to believe that she was not made aware of this palpable anger they felt? You don’t think a 19 year old kid facing a “campus” of students palpably angry would not be perceived by her as an “act” of aggression against her?

How about your act of aggression toward her in using a perjorative to describe her when others might have used whistleblower or even victim? Do you still stand by your word choices and would you call her that to her face? Would you view that as an act of aggression-name calling? Would you support students at the school calling the kid who was arrested “convict” or “jailbird” from now on?

The recent article on bullying cited with favor on these boards spoke of the harmfulness of words. A campus full of perjorative words directed at a freshman would be a nightmare. I would certainly hope that words would be the only way that the students have expressed this palpable anger that you had no trouble recognizing. If you didn’t have trouble “feeling” their hostility towards the girl, why would anyone believe the the girl had not been made 100 times more aware of it than you were?

BassDad · March 31, 2005, 1:11am

I am unwilling to speculate on her motivation, not knowing all the particulars. I am, however, willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and not condemn her actions based on what I have read.

This might be a case of someone catching a whif of reefer, sanctimoniously complaining to the RA, calling the police five minutes later and cooking up the asthma story after the fact. It might also be the case of someone with a respiratory ailment who had been complaining for months without being taken seriously and, not knowing where else to turn, finally called the police to end a potentially life-threatening situation.

Perhaps she did check the NO SMOKING box and it was incorrectly transcribed. Perhaps she was waitlisted and a room in the smoking dorm was all that was left. Perhaps she asked to be moved and the request got lost or sidetracked. Such things have been known to happen.

I don’t have the whole story, and would suggest that those who are similarly unenlightened should not be overanxious to judge her actions.

mini · March 31, 2005, 1:21am

Speaking personally, I would much, much prefer to have my d. be an in-dorm-room weed-smoker to a a frat house binge drinker. But maybe that’s just me (I happen to be the state’s senior planner on alcohol/drug issues, and a so-called public health expert, so what do I know?)

But I wish we would get over this idea that “it’s the same on all campuses”, or even just the northeast ones. That’s not even close to being true. Everything from campus culture, to campus organization, and administrative policy ensure just the opposite - that each campus will be DIFFERENT, as in measurably so. Will you like find a binge drinker or two, a reefer roller, or a meth user on every campus? You bet. And will you find 20-30% total abstainers on each campus? Pretty much. But the differences can in fact be quite radical from campus to campus. I wish folks would stop using that canard, and instead, if they are interested, focus on what makes the campuses different in that regard.

I haven’t seen either a clearly ascertained chain of events or a clearly known and articulated campus attitude toward the events which makes me want to comment on the Swat to-do. I am sure this is not the first time someone has rolled a joint on the Swarthmore campus (hey, if I can remember back that far, I think I probably rolled one myself!), nor the first time someone was upset by it. What is surprising to me is not that the student called the town police (again, I don’t really know what happened previously), but that they responded rather than turning it over to campus secruity.

interesteddad · March 31, 2005, 1:39am

A lot of people have trouble understanding the very personal scale of a place like Swarthmore. There are only 368 freshmen. The freshman roommate housing assignments are done personally by the Dean of Housing on her dining room table over a six week period during the summer.

Here is a newspaper article describing the process.

<a href=“http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/org/phoenix/2002/2002-09-12/news/12166.php[/url]”>http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/org/phoenix/2002/2002-09-12/news/12166.php</a>

It is a very, very remote possibility of a student requesting NO SMOKING being assigned to one of the very few SMOKING dorm rooms. It is an even more remote possibility that, having been informed by the student of the error (with or without the additional asthma issue), Dean Myrt would not rectify it, either before September, or worst case, during Winter Break.

I have no idea what the motivation of the girl was in this case. It could have a jilted lover’s spat for all I know. I’m just suggesting that the asthma story has some holes in it.

Before you're absolutely tired of these in April-- X vs. Z (for me)

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