<p>Do you know if Latin is an acceptable language, generally speaking, on the path to the history Ph.D?</p>
<p>Ticklemepink gives a realistic view of the odds facing a future History prof–but don’t let that dissuade your daughter if that’s what she truly wants. She will have a better idea once she starts doing research and keeping up with the intensive reading and writing in college. I have no real advice about choosing an undergrad school, as my kids’ wish list was so much different than the OP’s daughter. However, my D is about to enter a top-5 History Phd program this fall (1 year out of undergrad), and I’ll tell you how she fulfilled the language aquisition piece.</p>
<p>She took language #2 all through HS (through both AP sections), therefore, could have opted out of a FL completely during college. She decided instead to take language #3, and in college, a language course is VERY fast and intense. She studied in that country for a semester, did summer thesis research in that country and wrote her honors thesis partially in that language. Meanwhile, she started to study language #4 on her own for reading fluency only. As a senior in college, she applied for a Fulbright which would use language 3 and another language #5, which she began studying that summer through the State Dept.'s critical language program. During her Fulbright year she has continued studying language 5 in country of language 3! AND started going to evening classes in language #6.</p>
<p>She applied to 4 Phd programs, was accepted to all of them, and chose one after much deliberation. She realizes that she will have to keep all these languages going on her own, and has recently ordered books for language #7! Most of these languages will be used just for reading, but she also wants to be able to speak to archivists as she begins her research in her various countries. She says that after she begins her Phd, she may continue to get summer grants to go to various intensive language programs so she can improve (before she starts her dissertation research, that is).</p>
<p>She was very lucky to get the Fulbright, but there are many other programs available, and you can apply for the State Dept. Critical Language Scholarship from the beginning of your college career and beyond.</p>
<p>I think this is the first time I have ever written all this down, and it’s pretty amazing to realize just how much she has done! She gets very excited about being able to follow research leads in these languages, so it doesn’t seem like such work to learn them. That’s how I know she is perfectly suited for this career path, long and arduous as it may be!</p>
<p>zoosermom, if you’re interested in classical, medieval, or ecclesiastical history, Latin is a must. For an Americanist, it’s not so important. In general, a historian will need to be able to do research in the original language in whatever country/region s/he specializes in. </p>
<p>Most PhDs in humanities subjects have reading knowledge–not necessarily fluency–in a couple of European languages at minimum.</p>
<p>
Medieval is her prime interest, with classical as a strong second. Thanks so much!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’m not a historian. (I’m an attorney.) It’s just that back when I was in college, the language component was the stumbling block for some people I knew. When my kid was in college a few years ago, foreign language was the stumbling block for some of my kid’s friends. So, I think it’s a piece of the puzzle you ought to know if this is a possible career.</p>
<p>I’d ask others with more knowledge than I have for advice. That said, I think as a general rule, it’s easier to learn languages when you are young. I guess part of it though is how fluent you are in the first language you’ve studied. Most US high school kids aren’t fluent enough in one language to satisfy the proficiency requirements. Moreover, LOTS of kids drop a forieign language before college or after first or second year. By the time grad school rolls around, they’ve forgotten a lot and have to relearn things. </p>
<p>So, I think, without having any special knowledge, that the answer depends on how good you are in the foreign language you HAVE studied. If you are fluent, start studying another. If you aren’t, do more work in that subject and consider a summer immersion course if you aren’t really fluent. </p>
<p>As for specific requirements, you can check the websites of various history grad departments. Obviously, it may well be that you will develop a particular field of interest during college and need to learn a specific language to study that field. You may not know what it is in high school. But, repeating myself, I think it’s very unrealistic to think that you can complete course work in history AND learn two languages at the same time. That’s why so many programs are requiring you to demonstrate fluency to get accepted. It’s a waste of limited resources to admit candidates who drop out without Ph.D.s because they couldn’t satisfy the language component.</p>
<p>I was typing this when #22 was posted. WOW!! I’m really impressed! I think the OP can see how with a limited number of slots, it’s only natural that a Ph.D. program is going to take foreign language capability into account in deciding whom to accept. </p>
<p>Again, though, get advice from folks in the field.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Specifically Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, and the family income cap for substantial aid may be as high as $200k for at least one of those schools. If your family qualifies and your D is accepted, COA is no more than 10% of your family income. </p>
<p>Also keep an eye out for schools that offer support for seniors applying for major fellowships (e.g. Fulbright, Rhodes and the like).</p>
<p>I found this on Yale’s website. It describes the language requirements for a history Ph.D. in great detail. I thought it might be of interest.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Obviously, different graduate programs will have different requirements. I just thought an example might help to illustrate the importance of the foreign language component. In answer to zoosermom’s question, you can see that Latin would count for medievel studies, but you’d also need French AND German if you wanted to get your Ph.D. from Yale.</p>
<p>Being a history professor is all about publish or perish. The same applies, to a lesser extent of course, to grad students. I would encourage any history prof-in-the-making to hone those writing skills, to start getting in the habit of thinking about publishing, even if at the beginning it’s only for the college paper, the college publications, doing research for a professor who will be publishing, etc. The more you can have on your CV, the better odds of you getting into a top PhD program, the better the odds of getting grants, later landing a tenure-track job that ends with tenure. Publish, publish, publish should be the mantra. </p>
<p>And I agree that while it’s not the easiest road – if you truly love history, and can write, and understand the publish-or-perish mentality – you can make it as a future history professor.</p>
<p>Jonri–I agree that many US students (in any field) have a difficult time jumping over the foreign language hurdle, regardless of the number or type of languages. One thing I hadn’t mentioned in my long post was that our family lived in several foreign countries when our kids were younger–one of them being the country of language 2, her high school language. I wouldn’t call her fully fluent in that language BUT hearing a lot of languages and learning a little of each does amazing things to kids. First, it opens their brains to other sounds so they are not so stuck on the American English way of looking at words. Most important, they see the utility of foreign languages and learn how great it feels to read a menu, talk to a shopkeeper, translate for a friend. In my opinion, looking at the way I learned languages in HS and seeing friends’ kids struggle, students in the US don’t feel the pressing need to learn a FL enough to actively engage in learning one! Though that is changing rapidly.</p>
<p>I didn’t think my D was going to be our foreign language kid. BUT learning a language in college really taught her a discipline that she realized she was good at, and which was a formula she could apply to other languages. Also, History grad school wasn’t even a glimmer at that point, but she realized (being more of a Humanities person) it was truly the most valuable, concrete skilll she could take away from college, no matter what she did in the future. So she really applied herself to learning them. A couple she just reads, but the others she definitely speaks and hopes to keep using. her field is a transnational one, so multiple languages are even more important for her than, let’s say a Medievalist or an Americanist.</p>
<p>She went to a small college, and one thing which was key to her success is close relationships to faculty. Not only for their recommendation letters, but for helping her think through what she wanted to study and how she might cast her net in order to be a more attractive candidate. Also for giving her advice on what to look for in different schools’ departments and helping her network in general.</p>
<p>Mine doesn’t want to be a professor, she wants to be a conservator/curator, but she thinks a PhD in history is a possibility.</p>
<p>Katliamom–yes, reading and writing–constantly. If you do not LOVE both of those, it may not be for you. Some people don’t find that out until grad school, so the more opportunities you have in undergrad, the better.</p>
<p>OP, you might want to take a look at this thread for potential schools. It looks like some are already on your list: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/848226-important-links-automatic-guaranteed-merit-scholarships.html?highlight=guaranteed[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/848226-important-links-automatic-guaranteed-merit-scholarships.html?highlight=guaranteed</a></p>
<p>Let me expand on siusplau’s post.</p>
<p>1) Once someone picks a foreign language or two, it does become easier. I took Spanish in HS and hated every minute of it. I switched to Russian in college because I loved everything about Russia. THEN I learn Hebrew… I began noticing a pattern and applied my thinking of learning languages to Yiddish and German. German is a piece of cake to me now. So your D, once she finds a niche in foreign languages, will be excited to keep picking up more. While I was studying a bunch of different language families (Romance, Germanic, Semitic, Cyrillic), studying languages within a family will be a snap.</p>
<p>2) The reason why history PhD programs demand so much language training BEFORE entering is because of the timeline. Students generally only have the first 2-3 summers free and to do anything they need to do to prepare for their dissertation research. After students pass their comps in Year 3, they are expected to begin research. All language training should be done. So it’s quite an advantage if a student can come in with at least one or two under belt so that picking up the 3rd (and 4th) won’t be so time-consuming. If the student has too much to catch up, it can only learn to serious burn out and dropping out. </p>
<p>History programs are changing expectations over time in a way that it’s becoming more and more difficult than ever to get in the field. It’s daunting to me as well but I do know it’s only my passion that will keep me going. I’m convinced that it’s good in a way that only the very passionate and best ones will come out of all of this. When one of my professors in Asian Studies went to a top grad school in the late 1970s, he only had 3 years of Japanese! No Chinese. Now it is required to be nearly fluent. He told me that he’s amazed how much things have changed and he’s definitely not taking his position for granted. And I was just speaking with one of my former professors whose D is at a top 5 and is starting her job search. He said that she’s also applying for post-docs. Post-docs are now becoming a trend and within a decade, it may will be a requirement for a TT position as it is for sciences now. (I’m actually in favor of post-docs because if I can spend more time working on turning my dissertation into a book, I will be much more sane professor, knowing that one of the most important components of getting a tenure is over with).</p>
<p>And the library story? All sounds too familiar to me! 
I’d be the one who would lose track of time and forget to meet my ride at the entrance!</p>
<p>As a note for those with a foreign language requirement, DD attended Middlebury College’s summer language institute - full immersion for 7 weeks. It really helped her get fluent (somewhat) in the language. Each language lived and ate together, took classes and even did their EC’s in the language. They sign a pledge to do everything in the language - that means no outside communications unless in the language. I used Google translations for email with her that summer. It was hard but it was really the only way she could get to the placed in the language that she needed to be - No English at all.</p>
<p>Excellent information in this thread. A few additional points: </p>
<ol>
<li>You might want to look at schools that will allow your daughter to do a combined BA/MA in history in 4 years. Not only would this allow her to get into more advanced classes quickly, but it would certainly look good for grad school applications. And if she decides to change direction, she’d already have a master’s degree along with her BA. </li>
</ol>
<p>2a. Going the state-school full-ride route is a good idea overall, but it will mean that your daughter has to go “above and beyond” the normal curriculum to get the inside track into the top grad schools. Look for the “supplementals” in the scholarships that will allow her to pick up the language (and possibly field research) training that she’ll need. Travel stipends, research money (to go to conferences and such) are all crucial and some scholarship programs guarantee these. </p>
<p>2b. Some “full rides” don’t look so good once the other costs are all factored in while others that look smaller “on paper” are actually better deals, so be very specific in asking what’s included in the scholarships (and if there are other scholarships available to “stack” onto some of the initial ones; some schools cap the total $$ a student can receive). Others may also favor in-state students over out-of-state students once all the costs and fees are added up. Look closely, ask questions. </p>
<p>2c. Along with all full-ride scholarships, all honors colleges are definitely not created equal. Some do a much better job than others… i.e. if one is just a random office with a few worn out couches and a few lower-level classes, that’s nowhere near the experience of an entire Honors building with lots of upper-level honors classes and streamlined undergraduate research programs. Definitely visit and see for yourself what kind of resources are being put into the Honors program. </p>
<ol>
<li><p>Email professors in the history departments at some of the most interesting-looking schools. Ask them the hard questions- have they been able to place students at good grad schools? What kind of undergraduate research program (if any) do they have in place? Would the professor be willing to work with a top undergrad right off the bat? I found this really useful to gauge how they might react to an undergrad seeking to do research and to find out what kind of department they considered themselves.</p></li>
<li><p>Your D will almost certainly change direction at some point in her college career and probably should consider other options than just getting a PhD (look up some of the recent Chronicle of Higher Education articles that echo Tickemepink’s experience in academia). One of the advantages of going to a large state school is that good students with lots of AP/IB credit can often double or triple major, so I’d recommend that she also take some classes in or at least minor in another discipline outside of the humanities/languages so she has some experience with other ways of thinking and exposure to other types of careers.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Final point: I visited OU when I was doing my undergraduate search (was that…5, 6years ago? wow, I’m getting old) and was very disappointed with it compared to the other state school honors colleges I visited. Seemed to have a heavy emphasis on the sciences and the program seemed like a lot more style over substance (i.e. very nice and pretty new honors college, very few classes offered). Their national merit “full ride” also wasn’t as good as many other schools’ full rides and they didn’t seem to offer much in the way of other scholarships. I’m sure it’s changed in the meantime, but I got the impression that the honors colleges at Arkansas, Alabama, Georgia (where I eventually went), and South Carolina are all stronger and offered more generous scholarships.</p>
<p>So I am the daughter in question here. My dad finally convinced me to get on and read all the posts. Thank you all very much. It was very interesting, but i have a question of my own. My HS is very limited when it comes to AP opportunities and the spanish progam is very slow. With four years of spanish at my HS I will be able to skip one year of foriegn language going into college, or so says my counselor. It looks like I need to start a 3rd language right away. Would it be unrealistic to study both spanish and say french or german at the same time?</p>
<p>As a professor (not history but close) I will add to the excellent advice here that anyone wishing to apply to Ph.D. programs really must have a mentor or two during their undergrad years. To write a rec letter that has a chance of helping, a professor must really know the student. This means that a student must not just do well in a class but must get to know the professor out of class. Go to professors’ office hours. Ask for additional reading about a topic of interest. Ask the professor to review drafts of papers, even when not required. My own opinion is that this is easier to do at a LAC, where professors actually teach small classes and have time to get to know students. Not to say that it can’t be done at a larger university, but students will have more competition for a professor’s time (just in terms of the sheer number of students in a class and also in terms of the professor’s research commitments).</p>
<p>well, Amesie, yes and no. A professor who rarely publishes or goes to conferences has no “pull” in the field and isn’t likely to give helpful advice either. The best mentor would be somebody who is active and well-known in his or her field, because this person will have valuable contacts as well as credibility. Also such a person will be able to give realistic advice about grad school applications and and other professional matters.</p>
<p>Plenty of faculty at LACs, especially the elite ones, have vigorous research programs. Moreover lots of faculty at major research institutions are very involved with their undergraduates, especially the most motivated and talented ones. It isn’t the type of institution that matters, but the type of faculty member.</p>
<p>As ticklemepink said, studying two languages within the same family is really not hard at all. That applies to Spanish and French. German is a different language family, but not that different. If you have a lot of trouble studying Spanish and German at the same time, you are never going to be facile at learning languages.</p>
<p>Jingle: Of course a student should seek the best-qualified mentor (as you say, one who publishes and is respected in the field). But even a lesser-qualified mentor is better than no mentor. I say this after years of experience with students who show up in my office asking for a letter of recommendation, thinking that because they earned an A in my class I can write a compelling letter on their behalf. Most of these students will end up in a master’s program but it is the exceptional student who will be admitted to a doctoral program.</p>
<p>And of course there are approachable professors at big research universities and unapproachable professors at LACs, but if you are just going on odds, I would bet on finding an approachable professor at an LAC. Just figure out who even teaches the intorductory level classes (TAs or full-time faculty) and how large those classes are (20-40 at an LAC and 200+ at a university). Again, I am speaking in generalizations, but I think thsee are factors that are important to keep in mind.</p>