Best Route to Become a History Prof

OUEngr · June 15, 2010, 5:32pm

My DD just finished her Jr year in HS. 34 ACT, 4.3/4.0, tied w/ one other for #1 in class of ~350. So far she has been a 3 yr starter for Vasity Soccer as keeper. Member of NHS, FBLA, some community service, but not a whole lot. She has worked a part time job the last year at Wendy’s.

She loves history (favorite TV program is the History Channel) and sports. She has always been self motivated, never had to tell her to do her homework once in her life. Her dream job would be to be a History Prof. and part time History Channel Personality. She would like to attend a large Public University with big time sports programs. She also would like to get a full ride if possible.

Her mother and I have not been able to save much for our kids (3, DD in question is oldest, ages 17, 15, 12) college education as the middle DD had Leukemia when she was 1 1/2 yrs old (all good now) and the wife has had Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma for the past 8 yrs (in remission the past 3 yrs). So it’s been a little bit of a tough road, so the oldest has had to grow up a little faster than most and has been a big help around the house and that is why the oldest DD doesn’t have much community service and she has had a part time job. She is an awsome kid.

Anyway back to the subject at hand, she would like to go to a public U, make great grades, watch a little football, basketball, soccer, etc, enjoy the college experience and then go onto to get her PHd.

The schools she is thinking about are:

U of Alabama
U of Oklahoma
& If she decides after visiting campus she thinks it will be worth it, possibly
University of Virginia or
College of William and Mary (She might be willing to give up the big time sports if the History program is good enough)

My questions are:

<ol>
<li>Should I be pushing her harder to look at smaller/private universities or should I let her go to Alabama or Oklahoma?</li>
<li>What other Public Us w/ big time sports (possibly better history depts) should she consdier?</li>
<li>If she goes to a big time sports school and works hard, what are her chances of becoming a history prof?</li>
</ol>

sylvan8798 · June 15, 2010, 5:48pm

Is Oklahoma your home state? Some public schools don’t give much aid to out of state students. Have you looked into this?

As far as her chances, it is what you make it. If she excels, she will get into grad school. If she survives grad school, she will be a history prof, if that’s what she still wants to do.

RobD · June 15, 2010, 5:53pm

OUEngr: Do we have the same daughter ;)?

D will be a freshman at U of Alabama in the fall majoring in History (possibly double major with Anthropology.) With a 34 ACT your D will have the full tuition scholarship there (not full ride; you’ll still have to cover room, board, fees & books.) Any chance of her being a National Merit Finalist?

That being said: does she have a specific area of history that she is interested in? The history professor that D talked to at UA has been incredibly helpful and steered D towards the professors within the department that have focus areas that match hers. Your D might want to check the history department faculty listings at the schools she’s interested in so that she can identify faculty members that share her academic focus areas.

UA also has a few competitive honors programs that she may want to apply for (University Fellows & Computer Based Honors) besides the stat based University Honors Program & International Honors Program.

Will she have AP credits that will translate into college credit?

There is a book called Rugg’s Recommendations (usually available in the public library) that identifies top schools by subject areas; that might be someplace to look to find additional schools.

Regarding whether she can become a history professor or not is tough to answer. It’s a long road from graduating high school to getting your PhD. And tenured professor positions are not always easy to find. While my D is hoping to go that route (and she is a born academic if there ever was one) she realizes that she may end up teaching HS history at some point.

limabeans · June 15, 2010, 6:01pm

Wow! She’ll have a lot of options next April. The question is, which one offers what she’d like and can give her the best financial aide package. I suggest you look through the threads about “guaranteed aide”. As noted above, her home state is the place to start if you’re looking for best FA package at a state school, but I know other schools do offer aide that might soften the payments. My son was offered in-state costs at W&M b/c of his merit, although he didn’t request FA.

Having written that though, I also wanted to steer your DD towards other possibilities. She can find her history major anywhere. Look into large schools like Notre Dame and Northwestern for their football, for instance. Explore smaller LACs to see what kind of FA package she can get.

jingle · June 15, 2010, 6:08pm

If your daughter goes to any flagship public or good private school and does extremely well, she should be able to get into a good history PhD program. It is more important which grad school she attends than which undergrad school she attends, though studying with well-known, actively publishing historians as an undergraduate can help pave the way to graduate study (since those guys write the most convincing letters of recommendation). If your finances are strained, you may find that the top private schools are more generous with aid than the publics; the latter are often almost as expensive as the privates if you are out of state.

Top PhD programs fund their best students fully or almost fully. If your D is not one of those students, she probably does not want to pursue graduate education in history (see below).

Your daughter needs to realize that job prospects in history are dismal, even for very talented PhDs from tippy-top programs. I don’t see the academic job market improving any time soon. In some historical specialties PhDs can also find work in museums, etc. but that’s not exactly a vital, growing area of hiring either.

Your daughter’s best bet is to attend the most selective school she can get admitted to and that you can afford, and then to see how she stacks up in the undergrad history program. If she is promising, she will be able to get realistic advice from faculty who know her work and can gauge her chance of success. She should take the most rigorous history curriculum offered, and she should also opt to write an honors or independent thesis, which will give her a foretaste of what sort of thing she might be doing in grad school.

jonri · June 15, 2010, 6:12pm

First, while I agree that Rugg’s is useful, it is NOT an accurate listing of the top programs in different fields. Ruggs compiles his list primarily from high school guidance counselors, and in all honesty, they rarely know which colleges are strong in specific subject areas. The counselors he consults are clustered in certain geographic areas. I haven’t looked in a while, but it used to be that colleges located in the state of Pennsylvania were WAY overrepresented on the lists, because something like 1 out of 5 high school counselors he polled live in that state.The University of Pennsylvania was listed as the best college for lots of things in which it really isn’t all that highly ranked. He also asked students at different colleges to name what they consider the best majors at the colleges they attend. Again, it’s useful info, but it is NOT comparative. A student at XYZ is probably right when he says that history is a strong major there, but he isn’t trying to compare it with the quality of the history major at any other school.

The odds that your D will actually get a Ph.D. in history are slim. Even if she gets one, it’s unlikely that she’ll get a full time tenured faculty position as a history prof. I say that knowing nothing else about her because the odds are so slim. She should be aware that it will probably take about seven years of study after college graduation to complete her Ph.D.

But if she wants to do it, there’s certainly no reason not to try. The most important advice I can give her is to start studying foreign languages. You usually have to be fairly conversant with at least two foreign languages to get a history Ph.D. That’s a HUGE stumbling block and lots of folks end up with lots of grad courses but no Ph.D. because they couldn’t pass the language requirements. As a result, some Ph.D. programs require that you prove fluency in at least one foreign language before you BEGIN a program–the idea is that it’s just unrealistic to think you can study two languages while enrolled in a doctoral program.

I’m sure you can go on to a good graduate program from any large state U. However, if your D has the chance to get into an honors program that would be desirable. Getting into grad school is all about getting good letters of rec from people who are respected in the field. So, it would be wise to try to get into the honors program if one exists because the classes are usually smaller and you have a better chance of getting to know the profs well.

You might also take a look at the graduate forum on this site. It has some posts about history Ph.D. programs.

RobD · June 15, 2010, 6:19pm

Good to know about Rugg’s, Jonri. I thought it was helpful to give a list of schools that were at least recognized in certain subject areas, but I’ll look at it with a more critical eye next time I need it (for D2.)

mom2collegekids · June 15, 2010, 6:29pm

Is your D a likely NMF? What was her PSAT?

Alabama has a wonderful Honors College. Your D’s stats would make her a good candidate for Computer-based honors program. The name is a bit misleading. It’s not a comp sci program…it’s a research program for high achieving kids in all majors. Only 40 students are admitted each year and your D has the right stats.

If you visit, let the honors college know what your tour time is and they will schedule other events around that - such as meeting with the history dept, meeting with the Honors College dean (who is also the director of CBHP), etc.

cathymee · June 15, 2010, 7:19pm

if the OP’s D is looking at U Alabama, have her also look at the out of state merit opportunities for top scholars at U South Carolina (McNair Scholarship)

Olest D did this type of route for her impending PhD :large out of state merit scholarship to Arizona State undergrad (music performance changed to music history).Took two years of one NEW foreign language-German in junior/senior years upon excellent advisement.Did senior Honors Thesis -required in the Honors College there-on a musicology topic.Thesis served as her required writing sample
for grad school apps.While researching, came across an intriguing professor at a top 25 private U.Got in touch with him.Also attended the academic conference in her area of interest to see if the “academic intensity” suited her ($$ well spent I think) and met said professor there.Applied widely to grad schools, but only those who offered TA/Fellowship opportunities.Got accepted to and now attending that top 25 private U.Will finish next May having had great opportunities there and abroad.Top 25 U is very generous with travel expenses and conference attendance.Midwest location makes living on Fellowship salary manageable. NO STUDENT DEBT for either undergrad or grad school!

KandKsmom · June 15, 2010, 8:10pm

OUEng and RobD, If this were the Brady Bunch, mine would be Cindy, the youngest of the “history loving, wants to be a History prof” girls

OUEngr I am so glad you started this thread! I hope to share a bit but will be honest in that I am going to be selfishly taking in a lot from the replies to your post.

We are Virginia residents so I am partial to our great state schools, but like someone mentioned before they do not offer much in trying to lure OOS kids in with great merit packages like South Carolina and Alabama. But your girl really does sound like a great kid and with her stats, she just might get what limabeans’ son did. Problem is, in state at WM and UVA is over 22K a year next year. That isn’t chump change to me. Both schools have super reputations for their history depts., particularly WM’s. Williamsburg is such a cool environment for a student with this interest, especially if she is into American history. It just doesn’t get much better than a campus that has Colonial Williamsburg at its doorstep.
Both UVA and WM place a lot of kids in some of the best grad schools in the country, so that is something to factor in as well.

jonri, thanks for sharing all of the excellent advice about the foreign language piece. Do you suggest then for hs school kids with this interest to take two different languages in high school if they can or try to start another one in college?

Finally RobD, I have shared your thought “she may end up teaching HS history at some point” with my D, to which she said, “well that would be OK, too, since my HS history teacher is one of the main reasons why I want to do this” (He’s a GREAT teacher and a proud WM grad btw :))

musicamusica · June 15, 2010, 8:18pm

The history professors I know didn’t make teaching history their goal, but they did have one specific area in history that fascinated them and their obsession made them the leading experts in their fields. Study, study, become fluent in the appropriate languages, study, and publish, publish, publish.

starbright · June 15, 2010, 8:59pm

It doesn’t matter where she goes. But for undergrad, she should try to work closely with her history professors to learn the occupation and get research experience and great letters of rec.

I’m a huge fan of following your passion (and think a career as an academic is wonderful!) But she will only know if this is for her after she experiences it in college and while in HS its ‘history’ because that is something she knows now, but she might find her ‘real’ passion in say political science, international relations, anthropology or a wide range of specialty areas or something else entirely. Or she might discover she loves history but isn’t thrilled to research and write about it, or finds the journal publication process too grueling, or…something else.

I would also add that her area of interest might be a very tough slog. Very long years for a PhD and very few jobs. She might try to orient her interests toward an area that has better chances of hiring than another. The market is extremely dependent upon one’s area. In my field we have 2 spots for every PhD grad. In my cousin’s field - an area in political science- after 8 years PhD at a top school in his field, an impressive research record, a year long teaching stint in the middle east, he’s now had to move into his parent’s basement until he can find ANY kind of related work (forget about tenure track- he would take even just a part-time teaching gig at a communitcy college somewhere in the world right now). Not a good place to be at 31.

I don’t mean to be discouraging, just keep an open mind as one moves through the years ahead.

RobD · June 15, 2010, 9:37pm

Interesting to know about the foreign language component. D is taking a “new” foreign language in college due to interest & it not being offered in HS. Glad to see it will work in her favor.

K&K: D’s awesome history teachers in HS are a good part of why she starting leaning in that direction. Her 4 HS history teachers have all been stellar & she’s had good relationships with them, so the idea of following in their footsteps is appealing to her if academia doesn’t work out.

Cathymee: thanks for your insight into the process post college. I’ll file that away for about 3 years from now…:)

Something else to consider: if your child is interested in an international area of history (i.e. British, Latin America, etc.) look into the study abroad opportunities to that area at their intended school. D is interested in British history & Alabama has a program called Alabama at Oxford which she plans on participating in.

frazzled1 · June 15, 2010, 9:47pm

OP, has your d taken a look at University of Pittsburgh, which is a public school? Very strong history department, big-time sports, neat area of town, and she would almost certainly receive generous merit aid (probably full tuition with an invitation to apply for the really full-ride Chancellor’s Scholarship). Rolling admissions, so you can have a decision by October. Honors College, permitting a smaller-feel experience. Enormous school spirit.

I don’t know anything about becoming a history prof except that it’s a position very few people, even hugely talented ones, can hope to attain. But Pitt is a great school, and I hope she’ll check it out.

Re W & M - my youngest d is a very happy history major there, and it is a terrific place. But you should know that OOS students are usually disappointed in the finaid award, because the school meets the needs of Virginians first, and provides much aid via loans rather than grants. There are a small handful of merit aid scholarships available, in the amount of in-state tuition (Murray Scholars for about 4 entering “elite” students per year; 25 W & M Scholarships, to encourage campus diversity).

ticklemepink · June 15, 2010, 11:04pm

Um, can I say something? Apologies in advance for a LONG post as I am in the field.

First, let me get to the point with your questions.

<ol>
<li>Should I be pushing her harder to look at smaller/private universities or should I let her go to Alabama or Oklahoma?
Wherever as long there’s a strong history department (in my criteria- range of professors, minimum of 4-5 in US and Europe, 2 in other areas, demands a thesis, and offers a historian’s workshop course as part of major requirement)</li>
<li>What other Public Us w/ big time sports (possibly better history depts) should she consdier?
Any Big 10- Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio State, Penn State, Indiana, Illinois, etc. Really.</li>
<li>If she goes to a big time sports school and works hard, what are her chances of becoming a history prof?
10 humanities PhD students enter in the program. 5 drop out for various reasons (flunking the comprehensive exams, family obligations, and reality are primary reasons). 1 doesn’t finish the dissertation and doesn’t get a job. 2 get jobs in community colleges. 1 gets tenure-track but gets denied tenure after six years. The last student lands a TT job and gets tenured. So… 1 in 10 chance. Or less.</li>
</ol>

Now, the nitty-gritty.

I couldn’t even imagine myself being a professional historian in HS even though my AP Euro teacher was a huge inspiration to study history. I had no idea what I wanted to do with my future when I entered college. Eventually it stuck in my head by my junior year that I wanted to get PhD in history, in particular United States or Jewish, because I LOVE research. I interned in museums every summer. I spent a semester abroad in Israel to begin studying Hebrew and kept up with the language in my senior year. I did a senior thesis (and loved every minute of it). I applied to 3 PhD programs to work with these specific professors. Got rejected from all of them, citing that my lack of foreign languages, strong knowledge of the field to develop compelling questions and thoughts, or writing as reasons for my rejection. In the meantime, I rushed to apply to 2 MA programs and got accepted to both. I chose Michigan as costs were comparable and I preferred the professor there. I had been told that MA programs were stepping stones to the PhD and good ways to get one’s feet wet in the academia.

I set goals in my MA program and accomplished them. I wrote an exceptionally strong MA thesis that has created interest among academics who know my work. I picked up 2 more languages (German and Yiddish). Did fine in my coursework. Gained in-depth perspective on the field (granted, it was a publish-or-perish institution) that really helped me to conduct myself in much more professional manner. I applied to 5 PhD programs to work with certain groups of professors. Got rejected from 3 and waitlisted at 2. Never got off the waitlists though one was quite apologetic. I was expecting not to get in most programs but was definitely stunned that I didn’t get in ANYWHERE because I had such strong statement of purpose, interesting thesis for writing sample, and influential letter of recommendations.

And now… I am preparing for my THIRD round of PhD applications. And applying for jobs to fill my time. And focusing on re-taking the GRE and revising my MA thesis for publication.

Most people take 2 cycles before they get in anywhere with funding. Successful students get grants and fellowships which lead to MORE grants and fellowships that are important for one’s CV when applying for TT jobs. That’s part of the reason why people with common sense refuse to enter in a PhD program without a full funding package. Money is truly everything.

The most common reasons why students don’t get in the first time are A) lack of foreign languages (especially for Europe (French or German), Latin America (Spanish), and Asia (country’s primary language)) or B) poorly constructed statement of purpose (first thing that adcoms look at) or C) unpolished writing sample.

History PHD programs like to see applicants spending a little time off (a year or two is fine) to work on their languages, develop professional skills in history-related field, or just plain take a mental break. Because graduate school is so tough and academia is rather brutal, it’s so easy for students to burn out. And history programs hate to see burned out students because it’s quite an investment for them (We’re talking about financing $40-60,000 per student and multiply that anywhere from 5 to 25 students per class).

History professors don’t become professors because they like to teach. They do in order to get research grants and opportunities. If the history department’s pleasant enough, then they do admit that they like to teach. Otherwise, they’d rather spend their time writing their books and doing research than to teach survey courses.

But if your D shows promise and passion in the eyes of her professors wherever she goes, she WILL get help and assistance in preparing for a PhD. Since languages are so crucial, if she isn’t entirely sure what field to do, she should at least start with French or German and make it into literature level, before dropping or switching to another language.

So tell your D to get ready for a very long road ahead of her and that’s just getting into a PhD program, not the tenure.

orchestramom · June 16, 2010, 8:14am

^ thank you for that post, ticklemepink! very informative, honest and personal. And useful for any undergrad considering the grad school/PhD possibility. Good luck to you.

anothermom2 · June 16, 2010, 9:17am

As to what school would be good preparation, other suggestions of a good state flagship with a good history dept. sound like they would be affordable and good preparation. Depending on your financial situation, she might get aid at private schools, and you should use financial aid calculators to see if this would be realistic. Don’t let her go to a school that would put her in a lot of debt if grad school is planned.

A long time ago when I was an undergraduate student, I majored in American Studies and Government. I love American History, and took more history than literature for the American Studies major. I went on to get a JD/MBA and practiced law for some years but now work in business. My history advisor, who is still teaching at the same place always said to me, if I didn’t like law school, I should go on for history, which was how he became a professor (he left law school). I actually loved law school, but not so much practicing law. I would have preferred teaching anything - law, business, history to that (with the benefit of YEARS) of hindsight. I think your daughter should study history if she likes it, but remember that there are other grad options for anyone with a liberal arts degree. Surprisingly business and law require no specific major in undergrad. I think the advice of studying languages is good advice, and this should be part of a good liberal arts degree in any case.

To the aspiring history Ph.D. above, I wish you the best of luck. I have a piece of advice for you in choosing your area of expertise. Even if you love, let’s say, the Civil War era or Holocaust Studies, there are many Civil War and Holocaust scholars, and you might need to wait for one to retire to get a good spot teaching somewhere, regardless of the unique point of view that you might bring to it. However, if you pick a less popular area to specialize in, you might find more opportunity due to less competition. Also in the mean time, with an MA in history, maybe you can try teaching at a good private HS to keep your hand in things.

OUEngr · June 16, 2010, 9:42am

Thanks to everyone for all the informative posts.

Sylvan8798 - We are from Illinois and the in state scholrship opportunities are very limited. I graduated from Oklahoma w/ a petroleum engineering degree back in the 80’s and apparently have brain washed my children into being Sooner fans. I have tried encourage D1 to look at other options and she is somewhat listening, but she still has completely given up on OU yet.

mom2collegekids - no she will not be a NMF because no one at her school told any of the kids that they needed to take the PSAT last October and I wasn’t smart enough to start researching early enough. I found out just after last Christmas that she had missed the deadline to take the PSAT.

RobD & KandKsmom - Good to know there are others with the same questions. Sounds like they are in peas in a pod.

ticklemepink - Thank you so much for the very informative post, all though it is a bit disheartening to think that D1’s dreams will be so hard to attain. When I said she wanted to be a History Prof I guess I should have said why she wants to be a history prof. I think a little more background would help with the explanation.

From the time she learned how to read, she has been an avid reader. Eventhough she is very into sports and is very athletic (played every sport that came along through 8th grade). I can remember one summer, I think it was after 4th or 5th grade and she was missing school, so my wife who was a teacher found a beginners algebra book and my daughter would spend a couple of hours a day standing at her little white board doing Algebra and pretending to teach. Recently she took her sister to the mall at a larger town about an hour away for a quick trip one evening after school. She dropped her sister off at the mall, intending to come back in a half hour or so after buying some books at the local Borders. She ended up not getting back until closing time about 2 1/2 hrs later after buying 9 books in the History section (she never even made it to the Fiction section which she loves). For a 17 yr old highschool girl who loves to shop, to miss the mall because she got stuck in the history section really says a lot to me about how much she loves history.

One final thing about her love for hisotry. We finally caved and put a TV in her bedroom last Christmas, her mother and I are in her room almost daily and unitil the World Cup started had never found anything on her TV but the History Channel.

After she scored the 34 on her ACT, a number of people were telling her she should pursue a job in the medical field or some other high paying job. We discuused it and after 2 or 3 months we were talking one day and I asked her what she wanted out of life. She siad she wants a happy healthy family (after what she has been through with her sister and mother, family life is very important), she would love being able to spend time with her family during the summer and holidays, she would like to be able to coach some, she doesn’t care about making lot’s of money, but she would like to be comfortable, given the choice she would choose family over money and last but not least, she never wants to stop learning. She said that is why she wants to be a prof, because she thinks she will always be able to continue to learn.

We have talked about how hard it might be to become a History Prof and she has said she wouldn’t mind being a high school History Teacher or working in a museum. We understand it is a process and once she get to college she may change her mind, but you have to start somewhere.

OUEngr · June 16, 2010, 9:46am

I almost forgot, as of now D1 thinks she would like to specialize in History/theology if that option is available.

2boysima · June 16, 2010, 10:24am

OU and Alabama should be academic safeties, and possibly financial safeties. So…here are some suggestions for reaches:

She should look at Duke and UNC-Chapel Hill. Both have excellent history depts. They also have the incredible Robertson scholar program - which may be a real stretch for your daughter - but with top HS rank and sports, she might be considered.

Another stretch, with great History depts, is Stanford and the Ivies. If your family income is under $150,000, she may qualify for need based aid at some of these schools – although not likely a full ride unless income is under $50 - $75,000.

UVA and W&M are great for history. UVA more “big time” sports than W&M.

Just saw the “history/theology” interest. Look at Georgetown, Boston College and Notre Dame – if a Catholic school would be OK.

Has she visited any smaller schools? Most of the “classic” liberal arts colleges have strong history depts – and there are many opportunities for students to work directly with professors. If she is willing to reconsider the big time sports (my kids haven’t been willing to reconsider…but they’re just interested in History…not passionate about it!) many of these smaller schools are very involved within their sports conferences, and the atmosphere on a football, hockey, basketball or lacrosse weekend is just as fun as a big-time sports school…just on a smaller scale.

Does she want to continue playing soccer? If so…especially at the Liberal Arts colleges…look at the team roster. See if the starting goalie is class of '11 or '12. These schools will be looking for a goalie…and the coach could help give an admissions edge to your daughter (no athletic scholarships in D3, but…there are some with academic scholarships…and your daughter appears to have very strong academic credentials.)

Best Route to Become a History Prof

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