<p>Oops!! Sorry Curm. Hit the back button without paying attention. My apologies.</p>
<p>I don’t assume someone is a brown noser just because they are a volunteer or a good student or talk to the teacher/coach. I was a volunteer, and a substitute teacher. I’m talking about the situation of when it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck. I know specific stories of parents meeting with coaches to discuss their kids playtime/position (at the expense of some other poor hardworking player), parents getting with teachers to lobby for their kid’s nominations (not the kid- he didn’t go to the teacher- the <em>parent</em> did), administrators directing teachers to pull strings to help certain students (deep pocket parents). That’s the kind of stuff I’m talking about. And again, I hold the school directly responsible anyway, not the parents. They’re just doing what’s best for their kids. Who wouldn’t?</p>
<p>^^^ doubleplay, that is completely DIFFERENT. I was responding to descriptions of actions in the original post which I don’t see as brown-nosing. If the actions are as you describe or the motivations and intentions are, that’s different. I don’t do any of the things you just described in post #42. I do some of the things described in the original post, however.</p>
<p>I also would like to add that if over zealous parents are infringing on a teacher/coach’s other responsibilities, then that teacher/coach needs to set boundaries. It seems as if some people here are upset that coaches and teachers are imposed upon. Sorry, if the teacher/coach feels that way (maybe they do/maybe they don’t, and it may vary from event to event), they need to set some boundaries. I guess I’m just wondering why another parent would feel the need to protect a teacher/coach from parents who are imposing? If it is a true imposition, then, hey, we’re all adults, and you need to set some appropriate boundaries. If the coach/teacher doesn’t do this, why should other parents even care if it doesn’t involve them?</p>
<p>" guess I’m just wondering why another parent would feel the need to protect a teacher/coach from parents who are imposing? If it is a true imposition, then, hey, we’re all adults, and you need to set some appropriate boundaries. If the coach/teacher doesn’t do this, why should other parents even care if it doesn’t involve them"</p>
<p>It involves me if the program can’t continue because parents are climbing over each other to get at the music director when her portion is finished. There is simply no way for her to set boundaries other than physically pushing people out of the way, which is not an appropriate response. This is, of course, NYC, where no matter how many announcements are made about “no clapping till the end” or “please don’t stand in the aisles to take photographs” there are always many people who do those things. Sometimes people have to have a personal sense of courtesy and consideration and rushing a teacher or coach at the end of a progral is not appropriate.</p>
<p>I almost always send my S’s teachers a thank you note - AFTER grades have been submitted at the end of the semester. That way, I hope that they see our appreciation is genuine and not brown-nosing to get something out of the exchange.</p>
<p>"Well, for one thing I think we parents should have taught our children to express their own gratitude by the time they reach high school. I know my college son did so with those few really great teachers he had in hs. If we’ve taught our young adults to be generous in spirit, then they will do that on their own which will mean more I think. </p>
<p>Expressing your gratitude in May or June makes sense. Gushing in late September is probably brown-nosing."</p>
<p>I disagree. If one’s kid’s teacher seems to be teaching wonderfully, and one happens to see the teacher, I think it’s great to give some praise. Certainly teachers get negative feedback virtually immediately. Sadly, though, people don’t seem to think it’s necessary to give praise to teachers (or virtually anyone else) when things are going well.</p>
<p>IMO the best way to have something good continue is to let the person who’s doing well know how well they are doing.</p>
<p>If one’s kid enjoyed or seemed to learn a lot from an assignment, if you see the teacher, let them know. If you don’t the only feedback the teacher will get will be negative feedback from lazy students or disgruntled parents – no matter how wonderful the teacher’s work has been. </p>
<p>I have found that some of my kid’s best assignments (including those involving fieldtrips) were things that the teachers had to struggle with their administration to implement. A few words of praise – especially written praise that the teacher can add to their file – can go a long way.</p>
<p>I call insincere praise “brown nosing.” Sincere complements are politeness and smart things to do to encourage good teaching.</p>
<p>“I call insincere praise “brown nosing.” Sincere complements are politeness and smart things to do to encourage good teaching.”</p>
<p>Can praise be sincere and meaningful if it’s expressed privately?</p>
<p>“Can praise be sincere and meaningful if it’s expressed privately?”</p>
<p>Sure. The same is true for public praise.</p>
<p>I completely agree with Northstarmom. Teachers get constant feedback when things are not going well or someone is dissatisfied. What is wrong with supportive positive feedback when it is warranted? When I was a teacher, I’d have welcomed such appreciation and recognition. Even now in the work I do as a counselor, I very much appreciate the words of support and appreciation I get from some families in the MIDDLE of the process, and not just at the end when the acceptances come in. It is nice to have my efforts recognized and appreciated. I never feel brown-nosed by it either. I feel more that they recognized what I was doing and bothered to tell me. Too often, teachers and others who work with children only hear what’s not good and people don’t speak up about the many good things they ARE doing. I’d much rather hear a concern or complaint from someone who had been supportive along the way and active and involved and who didn’t just have contact for the times they wanted to complain. </p>
<p>I think sincere praise is meaningful whether told privately or in public. If you mean it, that’s all that matters. If you have ulterior motives, that’s a different story. Positive feedback and support is important in education. I see the teachers and parents as a team in the process and not as adversaries. If you establish a positive supportive rapport, it is also beneficial when other issues may arise. Just having contact when there is a problem is not so great. By the way, the support and praise is not focused on one’s individual child, as much as on the efforts of the teacher, coach, director, etc. for the good of the children as a whole. </p>
<p>Also, when I used to volunteer weekly in the classroom, I felt the entire class benefitted from the extra help in the room. It wasn’t for my own child’s sake. I didn’t do it for favors in return. The class and the teacher benefit from the help.</p>
<p>My D would have gone to a HS with incredibly pathetic & stereotypical politics- I saw it in athletics and the whole community (Friday Night Lights style small town intensity, esp Basketball, Volleyball and Football) gossiped about a couple of people and their relationships with coaches. When my D was in middle school a particular mom of one kid and dad of another were always at the varsity & JV HS games, yakking with the coaches, just around.</p>
<p>They had very talented kids, two in the minor league pros now (skipped college :eek: ) and one a blue chip athlete in a huge top sport university. Were they brown nosing? I don’t know, it sure seemed like it, but their kids would not be successful where they are now if they did not have the talent for it, so maybe they were just trying to learn the ropes ASAP.</p>
<p>On the other hand, we ended up at a HS with very little culture of politics and my D had a wonderful experience, but it still took my involvement to make sure she got the opportunities she needed- I could not have left it to her school to get her into advanced sports opportunities.</p>
<p>There was an annoying “brown noser” at our HS academically; one of the students was just adored by all admin and was truly groomed for university success- of course this kid was brilliant and talented, but there was some real steering going on. The student continually got glory for everything, went Ivy and is now on wall Street, so it was glory well-directed, but the tough part was that the student made fun of the staff who were so adoring- it was not sincere, but sucking up on the part of the student.</p>
<p>I guess that sucking up is the early onset of office politics???</p>
<p>I don’t understand why professional educators do not see why playing favorites is so bad for other kids. We had one staffer who played a major part in many students school experience and she adored some kids (two of my D’s best friends) and did not like my D nor several other girls in their crowd. The differences in daily experiences with the favorites vs. the non-favs was dramatic- the girls who the staffer disliked would take the stairs up 10 floors rather than risk meeting her in an elevator6-8 years later, she is an anathema to them; whereas the girls she adored recall her fondly.</p>
<p>Sad that a PROFESSIONAL could allow her personal feelings to so affect her daily behaviours.</p>
<p>I envy some/most of the posters whose kids attended a high school where politics did not play a part in their kids’ recognition, mentoring, support, nurturing. I’m exposing myself here, but when I came onto CC I was cynical and embittered about my kids’ experiences. Money was a big deal at their school. Not money as in ‘I’ll donate a few hundred to the basketball team’, but as in people giving tens/hundreds of thousands. It made a difference, and my kids saw it which really torqued me off because it made THEM into cynics, and they’re just too young for that.</p>
<p>Somemom, here’s an example: my son’s school refused to send his transcripts out for a rolling admissions school in the early fall- a college that awarded merit scholarships only if your info was submitted by a certain date. After telling my son that they weren’t sending going to do it, I got involved. (Here’s another big beef I have with school admins- they want to deal only with the kids so they can ‘just say no’ and call the shots their way.) Finally the facts were exposed- they were waiting for other students to get into the college first. I had to FIGHT to get his transcripts sent in time for the scholarship. </p>
<p>Another mother, who is a wonderful person and totally sincere, but whose family has given LOTS to the school, said to me, “Weren’t you so impressed with the college admissions help that the school gave? I can’t begin to tell you how much they did for our son. They really went above and beyond for him.” What am I supposed to do with that? All I could do is sit and nod, and say, “Yeah, they’re really good…” </p>
<p>I’m lumping brown nosers in with sugar daddies here, but the facts are the same. People get more when they play the game. My kids don’t visit the school and they will never give a dime to the school.</p>
<p>let me ask this… let’s say there are several, if not a lot, of wealthy families in your community. Some of those wealthy families have children who excel in some activity or sport. Wouldn’t it make sense that the parents (again, I’m talking about the ones who have tens/hundreds of thousands) would want to donate to a cause that is meaningful to their kids? Especially if that money will benefit all kids of the program (for instance, my donation, while not in the tens of thousands was directed specifically to purchasing state-of-the-art ‘invisible’ microphone systems to be used in the school’s auditorium during plays, etc. because the drama department’s equipment was so outdated and unpredictable. The school would not budget the money to do it, and I wanted to be able to more fully appreciate my daughter’s last performance on stage in high school. But, every cast member benefited from this donation, and as long as the equipment is maintained, etc., many more kids (and audience members!) will benefit from this equipment. But I also did so with the request that my donation be anonymous. I didn’t consider it at all to be ‘playing a game.’ But by the standards of some posters here, I’d be considered brown nosing.</p>
<p>I think it’s wonderful for people to give, and I don’t have a problem with them doing it publicly and being recognized for it. None at all. I totally appreciate the people who gave/give to the school, and I have given a lot too, just not in the same amounts, but what I can give. I think they should have a recognition banquet and recognize the heck out of these people. They are the backbone of the school. </p>
<p>Problem I have is when that gift buys a kid a position; a nomination; an award; extra slack academically- you know, that little push that gets him a plus instead of a minus; an all-tops GC rec; heck, I’ve seen girls get on freakin’ homecoming court because of this kind of stuff.</p>
<p>Givers are wonderful. Most givers don’t expect anything in return. It’s incumbent upon the school to treat all students the same, fairly, without regard to their parent’s contribution. Like I said, I’m not blaming the parent.</p>
<p>Doubleplay, that is shocking. I don’t even know what to say.</p>
<p>Teriwtt, I completely understand and respect your position. Mine is simply that sometimes, depending on the school and community, it’s better to express apprecation privately.</p>
<p>doubleplay…I still think you are describing a different situation. Giving money is not the exact same thing as being supportive and giving positive reinforcement to teachers, coaches, directors, etc. I certainly wasn’t talking about money. Also, in your case, I believe your sons went to a private school. Not sure how things work there. It just wasn’t quite like this here at our rural public school. </p>
<p>But I’ll go with this new topic of parents who make donations. I have to agree with teri on that. Just like parents who provide volunteering and compliments/feedback to adults who work with children, some parents may give money or items for the benefit of all in a program and without any thought to ANY preferential treatment for their own children. I don’t doubt there are others who think like you are describing but I don’t think we can lump all people who make donations, provide other forms of support, or volunteer into brown-nosers who seek to gain something in return for their child. I realize you have seen this other side but that is not the case for all who donate. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, I do not have money to donate to programs and school and have all I can do to pay for the fees for my kids to participate. I do try to give time or help with fundraisers. But I’ll comment on the money donators and feel as teri does about many who donate. My D is on a varsity sport at her private university. Almost all of her teammates are wealthy. A few are EXTREMELY wealthy (trust me on the “extreme wealth”). We are not. My D went to public school and is on financial aid. She is one of the only public school kids on the team, let alone on FA. Many of her teammates have several homes. Some are from millionaire families. Most attended very expensive sport academies for their high school. I know there was outreach from her college for donations for the sports foundation at the college. I was not able to give. As it is, my D’s participation on this varsity team has required a lot of money from us as parents just to participate. We have often had to make those required fees our D’s birthday or holiday present. She has also had to get some of her equipment as presents from grandparents. So, we are constantly being asked by the school to pay for various fees for her sport (beyond her own equipment which we naturally expect to pay for). It is a challenge to have to pay all these extra required fees for her to be on the team, but it is not a challenge for the other families and so it is hard for my kid to say anything (not sure why we have to pay for a varsity sport!). We keep being asked to pay for what amounts to field time, registration fees, team attire, and so forth. Well, this year, lo and behold, the money from the anonymous parent donors is going to pay for the “field time” and the jackets and other attire. My D has told me that all the other families donated to the foundation and she believes a wealthy family on the team donated a large sum so that all the kids could get jackets and suits. Names are not mentioned. We are grateful that there are parents who have these kinds of funds to donate for the benefit of ALL the kids on the team. I really doubt those parents are brown-nosing. I have seen no preferential treatment of anyone on the team and my D has been on it for four years. I say hurray for the parents who can either donate time (like we do) or money (like the wealthy families do). </p>
<p>This week, I will be attending their competition and most parents live too far to attend and I will be bringing food to feed the team and coaches. I can’t donate thousands like these other families but I will be there to cheer every kid on the team, the coach, and to feed them (the parents who attend coordinate this donation of food for the team). That’s my contribution. I’m grateful there were parents who offered to pay for everyone’s “field fees” and team attire this year.</p>
<p>Like I said, I LOVE that people give generously. Just don’t hold my kid back and give their kid priority because of it. I’m sure everyone can agree that they’d feel the same way.</p>
<p>doubleplay, I do agree with what you said in post #57. I’m just saying that not all who donate, or not all who support, volunteer or give praise are brown-nosers hoping for some preferential treatment. I understand you have seen brown-nosing. I’m simply saying that the actions of giving time, support, positive feedback or money cannot all be assumed to be brown-nosing; that’s all. You have seen some unfortunate situations, I agree. I realize it may make you skeptical to those who give in these ways geuninely for the benefit of the entire group, school, team, etc.</p>
<p>Giving publicly does not equal brownnosing, but maybe what zoosermom is trying to get at by her question about giving privately is that there are those who make a big show of their compliments, generosity and involvement and that is why folks might question their motives. Here in NJ, where people can be rather vulgar, we call that showiness and “always-ness” “being up the teacher’s butt.” In fact, these are the parents who actually fight each other over who gets to do what volunteer position. They can’t abide it if another mom is volunteering more, or more visibly, for fear it will be the other woman’s child who gets the advantage and not her own. I once had a PTA mom rip a chair out of my hands so she could be the one to carry it. Insane. I decided that there were plenty of other organizations who needed my help more, and left the PTA.</p>
<p>“Problem I have is when that gift buys a kid a position; a nomination; an award; extra slack academically- you know, that little push that gets him a plus instead of a minus; an all-tops GC rec; heck, I’ve seen girls get on freakin’ homecoming court because of this kind of stuff.”</p>
<p>The problem then isn’t that people give, but that the school is acting like grades and club offices are for sale.</p>