If her credit rating is that terrible and she has no source of income other than the soc sec, with little saving seft, who is going to extend her credit?
Good question, jym. Perhaps I misspoke. Maybe her credit rating isn’t that bad, since she always pays everything off. I know that she could not have rented this condo because they required a certain income that she lacked. She still has at least a handful of credit cards, which she pays off every month (hence the dwindling bank account).
DH has access to her (new) bank account and I do not think she will try to sneakily spend her SS check instead of paying rent. She agreed that if we got this condo for her, her check would be used to cover the rent and utilities. I would be surprised if she didn’t comply with this.
I am taking in all of your thoughtful comments and we are discussing The Plan.
I think the OP was more than generous in consigning a lease for a two bedroom condo rental. I doubt I would have been that generous. If the rent had been for a studio or one bedroom, more of the SS/pension money could have been allocated to the rest of the utilities and other expenses. The more expensive housing means the OP and her husband bear more of the burden for other costs. Not sure I think this helps the mother understand “cutting back”.
I agree with auto deduction for the rent on the day the SS check is auto deposited.
I would start with a low monthly allowance…for necessities.
My mom lived in a senior building. It was actually very nice. Her little unit was really nice…we got new furniture, and paid to have wall to wall carpet in the living area. It was quite cozy. The building also had activities going on all the time…movies, bingo, crafts days, lobster dinner, thanksgiving dinner, holiday events, and the like. There was a coffee and donut hour every morning. And the rent was a %age of income…very reasonable…and included all utilities except cable TV and phone. My mom didn’t have a huge income. This was within her means. We bought the furniture and carpet, and made sure it was nice. But she paid the bills out of her SS and pension.
Great typo!
Sometimes autocorrect is amusing…
^^^
lol
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know that she could not have rented this condo because they required a certain income that she lacked
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Yes, many leases will require that rent be no more than a 1/3 or 1/4 of income. For anyone else facing this situation with an older parent who is a spendthrift, becoming the rent guarantor can be a negotiating tool for getting power of attorney and/or some control over finances.
^ If the parent was cooperative, the time to get the signed POA is before the lease is signed… not after. Lost leverage…
Yes, I see that. It wasn’t something we had considered.
Well, the lease is for a fixed term and you and H will have leverage when the lease is ending and it’s time to renew. She can work with you on renewal terms or go to SR Housing (if she can even get in–many have long waiting lists and are very nice and conveniently located places).
I would start telling MIL now that your co-signing lease renewal is dependent on (you fill in the blank). Either POA or her having paid the rent from her SS check, both, or some other goal you and your husband agree on.
Tell her now, tell her next week, next month, etc. Give her plenty of time to let it sink in. (Although it probably won’t penetrate her tough exterior.) Put it in Writing, send her written notes, post it on her refrigerator, etc. Don’t let her have an “excuse” that she didn’t know. Heck, you can even have her sign one of your notes to say she understands.
This might be a pointless exercise in futility, but it’s worth a try.
I’ve been following this with great interest. Thanks to all who are sharing this very difficult situation and my thoughts are with you.
Although neither my mother or my IL’s have this particular problem, so much of what’s been said resonates with me. When my dad died, I had to have a come to Jesus conversation with my mom. My dad did not leave my mom in great shape and she has had to curtail her spending a lot. We’ve had to have a conversation I NEVER thought I would have to have with my parent and it’s been really hard.
I also have a sibling who is unwilling to deal with anything and doesn’t even want to have anything to do with my mom. It’s extremely difficult because everything seems to be on me now and I never thought that would happen either.
I have people in my life who seem unable to control their spending. They are younger but I do wonder what will happen when all of their revenue streams dry up. My mom tells me that they must have the money to spend or they wouldn’t. Well no, we know that isn’t true. From a far, it’s hard not to be envious of people who live with such great abandon. This conversation is a great eye opener as I truely hope the tortoise will win over the hare in the end. It’s hard being the tortoise though
I just want to say…it’s not easy ever dealing with difficult issues with one’s parents. It is especially hard when money comes into play. I’m sure all of us have had to have hard discussions about something at one time or another…with a parent. And it makes it doubly hard when all of the siblings are not on the same page.
To the OP…your mom knows your husband is in a position to help her if needed. The other siblings have not stepped up. I have to wonder (beside the sister who is irresponsible with money herself) if others might step up more if you step up a LOT less.
Where did your mom live prior to this condo? Another rental or did she own a home?
Does she have any savings? If so, regardless of the amount…get it put into some kind of account that generates some kind of monthly income stream, regardless of how small. It’s better to have that than to see the money frittered away in five or six months due to spending habits. Even $25,000 invested the right way, will yield about $100 or maybe more a month. That $100 a month could be your mother’s spending money.
I went off budget some years ago. New house, my third child, some extra money after two years of extreme stinting, and I just became a full time stay at home mom. It’s worse than going off a diet. With credit cards, and invisible bills, a credit line on the checking account that was a big HELOC at a low interest rate. Oh, yeah. Snacks and outings for the kids, birthday parties, new friends, shopping. The thing was and is, I don’t buy high priced designer things, no colections, how could I be spending to much? I was, and it got worse. DH was making a great salary, and we were bone dry empty at the end of the month and our credit cards were never zeroed out, and teh HELOC was getting used.
I had to go back to the basics. Cash and envelopes labeled with categories. Had to see the money and the envelopes to get it. To understand we could not afford private lessons, tutoring, more than so many activities. No furniture purchases, no piano, and no clothes budget. I still don’t know how people live that way. We had to be making as much or more as most of our neighbors, most of the people I was meeting,and was with, but I couldn’t live like they were even though we did not eat out much, go out as much, etc etc. This was before the internet, cell phone, cable bills even and our house did not have air conditioning. Cars paid for, not extravagant ones. I had to see cash out an amount and allocate it physically.
I had to revert back to that a number of times when I started to backslide. To this day, I have to get out of my head that we should be able to afford this or that. I think we are just spread out into so many different things that we just cannot spend much in any of the areas.
But OT here, wanted to say, the physical cash in the envelope for some reason brings it back into reality in a way numbers on a page don’t, and I’m a statistician by trade. When it comes to personal spending, I need the physical reality of the money for some reason. For elderly, that might be even more helpful.
Cpt, very important post there. How we all struggle with money. And that we all wonder how other people do it when we cant seem to. I know I’ve struggled with the same.
I’m not sure how it would help with the op or pizzagirl’s mother as I don’t think they think rationally and that there are other factors in play. Your approach helps if the person can see the errors of their spending and it doesn’t seem that the op’s or pg’s parents do.
Sometimes it feels like I am the only one who struggles with the realities of a budget and the only one who struggles with a sometimes difficult parent. This conversation is so very helpful.
This is coming from left field and I have never had to deal with parents who had money issues. This might sound like Pollyanna–but what if you (OP and PG) approached your relative in a different way. Instead of laying down the law and being a bad guy, (I’m not saying you are) could you approach your relatives in a positive way. Something like–how much of an allowance do you think you need. And if it’s too much–don’t say anything, just ask your relatives to tell you how they would spend the money.
Maybe they’ll realize that they don’t need as much as they think they do. If your relatives do come up with a list of stuff they “need”, you could say–I can’t give you this much. Let’s see what we can cut out of this list. If you try to include the relative in the decision making so that she feels like she has some say in it, could the outcome be better? Would your relative be more likely to accept the fact that she has to live on what’s available. Can you make it a “we’re in this together” situation so that it doesn’t feel so much like a battle. Again, maybe you’ve done this and it hasn’t worked, but seems like you guys will be in a constant battle if you can’t get your relations to accept what’s available. Sounds like a really stressful and awful experience–hope you can find some solutions.
Bromfield, that would only work with a rational thinking grandma who really understands the meaning of “need” vs “want”. Doesn’t sound like these two understand that…at all.
And what would you do if granny said…“I need $2500 a month to rent a luxury condo and $2500 of spending money…because that is what I’m used to spending.”
The point here is…both of these parents have well overspent and are now facing very limited resources for their futures. Their living kids are trying to help them pick up the pieces for the future. It’s a tough place to be.
I think the $100 flowers with the papyrus card summed it up well. The OPs mom has a funny way of conserving money. She doesn’t know how to do this. And she needs to learn, or she will be totally dependent on someone to support her in her golden years…when really, that should not have been the case.
re cosigning the lease: I work in property management and do leases and lease renewals on an almost daily basis. We use a standard lease that the National Apartment Association wrote and provides. In that lease, it explicitly states that the co-signer is the co-signer for the life of the residency through all renewals. So, once a co-signer always a co-signer.
I asked my boss today what would happen if a current co-signer came to us and told us that their income status had changed dramatically and they no longer felt comfortable being co-signer and wanted off at the next renewal. She stated that we would take it on a case by case basis, we could let them off if the resident could afford it on their own at that point. She also stated that we are not required to let the co-signer off if we didn’t feel it was in our best interests as the landlord.
Every property and property manager would have their own style and may or may not be helpful in these cases.
Interesting about the lease, bajamm. For the poster who referenced siblings, the sister is the only sibling. I just didn’t want to disclose details of her misdeeds.
Re: senior housing, it would have been more of a challenge for us to arrange than we were able to take on, as MIL lived out of state before moving here last week and there are significant wait lists at the decent properties. It could be a possibility for the future, particularly if MIL is noncompliant.
Bromfield, I appreciate the suggestion. We decided to try to be very positive during this move and to do our best to make MIL feel welcome. We realize it’s scary and probably sad to move here after 81 years in another city, and the fact that she didn’t have enough ties or support to keep her there is telling. So we have endeavored to approach this new phase of her life as a positive, collaborative thing. I’m thinking about your proposed approach to the allowance talk!
I could barely bring myself to thank MIL for the flowers. DH was livid, and I was pretty close. When she started talking about them, she announced with great delight that they had cost $2.17 below her budget! The movers were there, bringing in her stuff, so we did not delve into the topic at the moment.
cpt, your comments about spending too much money without being able to see where it went are on point. Aside from the kitchenware, it’s hard to see what she’s spent it on. In the past she has spent a lot on paying people to help her around the house.
I have to say that I have really appreciated hearing everyone’s insights and experiences. It is very helpful knowing that others have dealt with similar issues.
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could barely bring myself to thank MIL for the flowers. DH was livid, and I was pretty close. When she started talking about them, she announced with great delight that they had cost $2.17 below her budget! The movers were there, bringing in her stuff, so we did not delve into the topic at the moment.
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Why thank her? I wouldn’t. Not at all. My “lack of thanks” would have been a clear message that the flowers weren’t appreciated…which they weren’t. And, if she later asked why you didn’t thank her, why not be honest, “we aren’t happy about receiving flowers that are coming from depleting savings. It actually made us feel annoyed to receive them. If you send them again, we won’t accept them when the florist tries to deliver.” (too witchy ? lol)
What does that mean, “$2.18 below budget” ?? She has a budget for sending flowers?
Well, she was trying to do something nice. I’m furious about the way she went about it, and we will be discussing the flowers along with a host of other things when we have our meeting to lay out finances, but with the movers hauling stuff through the door I made the decision to thank her when she started asking about the flowers. I didn’t need any added drama or tears at the moment. And no, I don’t want to be a witch.
The $2.17 below budget comment shows how out of touch she is. She must have decided that she would spend $100 or whatever, so that was her “budget,” completely without any real world context. She was delighted with herself.