Carleton vs Grinnell vs Haverford [possible Poli Sci with Philosophy; international student]

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Hi all,

My S24 has been accepted at three of his top LAC choices - Carleton, Grinnell and Haverford. He is an international student and while he has attended virtual events (and an in-person informal meet with Grinnell in our city), he has not had a chance to visit any of the campuses.

He is not sure of the eventual major, but is interested in Poli Sci with Philosophy. Rankings are not uniform (US news ranks Carleton and Grinnell much higher than the ranking given to them by Forbes). Other factors that we have thought of are

(1) Weather - while all 3 places will be much colder than where we live, he does not think this is a big factor for decision making.
(2) Location - Haverford seems closest to a city. Carleton is about 45 mins from a city while Grinnell seems a little more isolated.
(3) Academics and job prospects - Carleton and Grinnell seem to send more students to PhD programmes. While my son is not sure if he will pursue a graduate degree immediately after undergrad, what are your views on job prospects for each of these colleges?
(4) He is a studious extrovert but not into partying. He is a fencer and IM level fencing would be an added benefit.

I have read through past posts but would love to read inputs from this forum - parents who had a similar doubt or students at these colleges. Thank you.

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I expect Grinnell will be the hardest to get to…have you looked into travel ease and times for all? With that said, I expect Grinnell has the highest proportion of internationals among these three choices.

Haverford definitely closest to the city, and Philly is the warmest/less cold of these three choices.

I expect the job prospects are similar across these three schools, but as an international, best case your student will be able to stay in the US for 36 months with a STEM degree (12 months with non-stem.) Most schools’ career centers post career outcome reports…if you can’t find them, have your S contact them and ask.

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As perhaps an under-regarded aspect of Haverford, it easily places among the most selective colleges in the U.S. WalletHub, for example, assigned Haverford a selectivity ranking of 28 when compared to all colleges nationally:

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Thank you. Yes, he is thrilled to have been accepted at all three and hoping to decide upon one soon. Travel wise, Haverford and Carleton will be most convenient from our home.

Noted your response on the job prospects as an international student. We did look at student job outcomes on all three colleges websites.

The only point of concern for me as a parent of a person of colour is the few instances of racial tension at Grinnell.

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Thank you for sharing this.

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Grinnell is an easy and consistent 45 minute drive from Des Moines. The only difficulty getting there is that there are relatively few direct flights into Des Moines unless you live near a major hub.

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Exactly. Many international students will have to take another flight from ORD (or other large relatively close airport)…and OP did say the other two schools have more convenient travel than Grinnell, so I trust they can accurately compare these choices.

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You may want to check on how these colleges and various majors of interest are viewed in the student’s country of citizenship or any other country where he can more easily get the needed work visa or does not need a work visa.

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I was simply trying to clarify that Grinnell is also 45 minutes from a city.

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Haverford has a great location. Easy train from near campus into Philly. Carleton is an awesome campus, but getting to Mpls/St.Paul is definitely harder than Hav. I’ve never been to Grinnell.

My D24 is considering Hav. We are in MN, and she decided to leave state. That said, Carleton was her favorite local school.

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I would expect every one of these campuses to be very welcoming to a POC.

I would guess that going off campus, Philadelphia might be the most welcoming, diverse environment.

I say this as someone who is not a POC.

If you can connect with other students from your country, you might be able to get a more nuanced answer on this.

As schools, these are all fabulous options. I generally suggest that students try to map out their 4 years, taking into account all requirements (general and for major) to see if anything leaps out that meaningfully change your opinion of any of them.

Work prospects for international students can be tough. Period.

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Minneapolis-St. Paul is also quite diverse, with a significant international contingent, including Southeast Asian, African, and Latin American immigrant communities. It will also have lots of internship opportunities for someone interested in politics, though I don’t know how many paid positions are open to international students (but this would be the case anywhere).

Philadelphia is also a great city – just trying to make the point that Minneapolis is more diverse and cosmopolitan than many people think it is. But as others have said - it’s hard to go wrong here. Fantastic choices.

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Philly is very diverse, but can have a lot of racial tension too.
Minneapolis has welcomed a large immigrant population, although it’s definitely majority-white whereas Philly is solidly majority-nonwhite.

Grinnell has the largest share of international students, by a good margin (despite the more challenging travel). All three schools have a domestic student population that is only a little over 50% white.

Gender balance might be a thing to consider, if it matters to you. Haverford is very closely connected to its sister school, Bryn Mawr. At one time Haverford was a men’s college and BMC was a women’s college, but Haverford is now majority-female by a slight margin, and BMC is still single-gender. The combined population of the two schools, therefore, is almost 80% female. Whether this is a pro, con, or neutral is entirely a matter of opinion!

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My daughter attends Carleton and adores it. 1) Though she’s from sunny California, she’s leaned into the fun that a snowy winter can offer, enough so that this year’s lack of snow bummed her out a little bit. 2) As a parent, I have really appreciated the many direct flights to Minneapolis and the direct bus line to Northfield. My daughter also goes into the Twin Cities a couple of times a month for fun and sports activities. 3) My daughter is stem-focused so I don’t have an opinion of the Politics or Philosophy departments. That said, her professors have been uniformly superb - Spanish, history, geology, religion, chemistry, etc - all of them are top-notch. Carleton emphasizes their teaching as a selling point, and it has absolutely been true. If good teaching leads to good jobs, your son will be set. (They also have a robust alum network of Carls helping Carls that should help. The winter Externship program is particularly great!) 4) My daughter is not a party-hardy kind of person, but she’s found plenty to do: she’s joined a rock band, participated in three different club sports (no fencing though), gone on lots of outdoor adventure trips, and found a solid group of good friends. We both 100% recommend the school.

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Thank you for your detailed response. I appreciate it. It is heartening to know that your daughter is thriving at Carleton. I am trying not to let current thoughts on potential majors affect my son’s decision because he may well decide to pick an entirely different major.

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Deleted in error.

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I wouldn’t let ranking systems or appeals to selectivity enter into your deliberations. They are all subject to manipulation and are especially absurd when it comes to small, American liberal arts colleges because, as a group, they are all dependent on the same narrow slice of upper-middle-class, white suburbanites who spend years grooming their kids for a gauntlet of advanced placement courses, math tutoring, essay polishing and test-taking. They are all to some extent drinking from the same, highly-filtered, well.

Look instead to what makes these places charming or special in their own way. Many of them were founded by quirky or non-conformist religious sects; some have distinctive ties to a particular region of the country. A very few have unique academic offerings. Let the large, impersonal research universities live or die by the rankings. Relax and enjoy the boutique offerings of the American small college.

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Just a couple quick notes.

In terms of general placement in PhD programs, per capita Haverford is not much behind Carleton or Grinnell:

So these are all great colleges for that sort of interest.

Another thing I would note you didn’t mention but might matter in practice is size in context.

Carleton is about 2000 students, and it also shares Northfield (21000 residents) with St Olaf, which is about 3000 students. Carleton is actually really well-integrated into Northfield–it sort of blurs into the town at the edges (in fact it has taken over what used to be a local school).

Grinnell is about 1750 students, and it is alone in Grinnell the town (9000 residents).

Haverford is then the smallest at under 1500 students, but then it has a close relationship with Bryn Mawr (regular 10 minute buses, lots of cross-registration, students eat at each other’s dining halls, they do some activities together, and so on), which is another 1400 undergrads plus some grads. And in fact they also have a relationship with Swarthmore, but my understanding is those contacts are much less frequent. Then of course both are on the Main Line in Pennsylvania, a vibrant series of communities connected to Philly by frequent commuter trains. But the structure of the Haverford campus is fairly enclosed/separated from the local community.

OK, so my S24 was not particularly interested in Grinnell. Just too small, too isolated, too hard to get to.

He did apply to Haverford and Carleton, and was accepted at both. Haverford didn’t make his short list, but Carleton did. I think despite the pitch about Bryn Mawr, the convenience of Philly, and so on, he just didn’t like the size and feel of the Haverford campus itself, and he had a clearer vision of actually thriving on the Carleton campus.

But I would not insist everyone reach the same conclusion. Indeed, personally, I think Haverford’s easy connections to Bryn Mawr and Philly make it very attractive. But I also get what my S24 is thinking in terms of really wanting his own college to be the focus of his activities, while at the same time having the option to get to a major city for a day trip or weekend or direct flight when desired.

Anyway, just some thoughts for you. I really don’t think you can go wrong with the academics or job prospects, so I think it makes sense to focus on the most exciting vision for a fun, vibrant college experience.

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I completely agree with all this (and to be blunt, our family and kid really illustrate it, although more just by choosing a private HS that did all that grooming and polishing for us).

And speaking of religious history and vibe, Haverford was founded by Pennsylvania Quakers and you can definitely still feel the influence. The campus is more muted/less ostentatious than many other highly-regarded LACs. I actually responded to that positively, my S24 less so. Their Honor Code is very, very important to them, and it is a living document with ongoing participation by the students in its perpetual recreation, very much a Quaker sort of thing. Again, I thought it was cool, didn’t do much for S24.

Carleton was founded by Minnesota Congregationalists, and honestly that is really only like a half-step away from Pennsylvania Quakers in the greater scheme. Like, there is again this pervasive sense of the importance of community and universal invitation to participate in important community activities.

Anyway, I understand it was considered pretty conservative at first, but then under the influence of some Yale Divinity School graduates it became a lot more liberal, eventually became non-denominational, and finally fully secular. And yet to this day I think it is still seen by some as a place where a diversity of viewpoints is relatively welcome (although others will say it is “just as bad” as any secular liberal arts college today, so YMMV).

I know less about Grinnell because my S24 was not really interested from the start, but my understanding is it was founded as a frontier/proselytizing college, by Congregationalists again. It became strongly associated with the generally liberal Social Gospel movement, and again even as it moved toward being secular it retained that strong ethic of social service.

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Ding, ding, ding.

Aside from academic fit, concentrate on the places themselves and the overall vibes therein.

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