Carleton vs Grinnell vs Pitzer Help (intended Biology major, Pre-med)

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Pre-Med & Pre-Health at Pitzer

If you like Pitzer College & want to spend the next 4 years in Southern California instead of small-town Iowa or Minnesota, then go for it! Hope they offer you a better financial package than Grinnell. You’ll need to avoid applying ED to any of the three.

Who knows if you’ll end up at Harvard or the University of Washington for med school? It won’t matter whether you completed your undergraduate studies at Carleton, Grinnell, or Pitzer. Doctors typically don’t even reference where they did there ugrad, only their medical school & residency.

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You make great points. I posted this 3 weeks ago after way out west mom showed some data that says the where you go is largely considered unimportant.

It might help OP in just deciding - is this the right school list for them? We don’t know if they have less competitive schools recruiting them - that might come in cheaper.

You mentioned residency - he’s the undergrad of residents at some of the top hospitals. But OP will see, they should choose the right college for their goals, of which they say med school is the priority. Then the 8 year budget is the top thing they should look at, and then other items other posters have brought up.

Residents at a few top hospitals:

Here’s radiation oncology undergrad at Vandy

Wisconsin
USC
Ole Miss
Lafayette
UMass
Rhodes
UCSB
UTK

Here is PMI Residents

Drake
Duke
SUNY Oneonta
Baylor
UTexas
UNC
UAH
U Nebraska Omaha

Northwestern PEDs

Hampton
Northwestern- several
Auburn
FAU
Alabama
UVA
Stanford
St Olaf
Gustavas Adolphus
U Chicago
Chapman
Notre Dame
Seton Hill
UT
UIUC
Wisc
Brown
Emory
And more

Emory Hospital

ASU
Vandy
Colgate
St John’s
Ga Tech
Penn State
St Louis
UT
Pitt
St Lawrence
Emory
Miami
U Wash

Yes some undergrad schools will have a higher % go to med school because higher achieving kids went to begin with. But no matter, where you go, if you can deliver, it’s clear you have a chance.

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23

But he’s not talking about qualifying for fin aid, and not about merit money at less selective LACs. He’s talking about full fare at Carleton, vs full fare minus 20K/yr merit money at Grinnell, as his only two options, because they’ve recruited him to play a sport for them.

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For the sport part, look at where these teams play, how far is it, and when talking to the coaches ask how the team travels - bus, vans, planes. Grinnell is ALWAYS going to mean a trip. Carlton may play more teams in the twin cities area so it isn’t a long trip. Travel time is a big deal. My daughter played and her first year was brutal as the coach didn’t have a very good travel schedule - too far (by bus), too close to the end of the semester (her school finished the end of April, the beginning of May. The coach learned that other teams would travel to Florida to play over spring break so that was a lot better.

I don’t agree that an athlete can’t be pre-med. My daughter’s roommate/teammate went to dental school 1 year out of undergrad, and played almost all the time for 4 years straight. Almost everyone on the team was a STEM major (that type of school). Yes, they had lifting several mornings a week at 6 am, but that kept them organized and in bed by 10 pm.

It is a lot nicer to play golf in Southern Cal than in Minn or Iowa in the late fall or early spring. Getting ‘home’ wherever that is, will be harder from Grinnell than from Mps or southern Cal. Does a really small school in the middle of Iowa interest you? I think you’d become tight with your classmates and professors, but you might want more variety in both friends and classes, and I think the other schools would give you that, especially Pfizer with the other 4 schools there.

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I don’t understand what you’re talking about. The issue is getting into medical school, from which undergrad school - residency is way down the line after that. Yes, it seems that most med schools do not consider where the GPA was earned - a 4.0 is a 4.0, whether it came from Yale or from the local state 4 yr college, even with the first two years done at community college. After all, there is the MCAT to determine whether or not the applicant mastered the material.

I have never heard that residencies give a hoot about where the person did their undergrad. Sure, if the residency program director came from Princeton, and the applicant, too, that might give them a slight leg up, but residency programs are considering Step 2 scores, publications, med school grades, letters of recommendation, and most importantly, is this someone that they can see themselves working with for the next 3-5 years. And yes, they might think that someone who went to MIT undergrad is definitely very intelligent, but it’s more or less ancient history by then. It’s what happens in med school that matters to residencies.

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I understand - but I don’t know if there are other suitors (women’s golf) - there’s lot of LACs that throw half + COA out there in merit - because they need butts in seat. The schools in discussion aren’t those. But perhaps there were other schools - the Woosters, Kenyons, Kalamazoos, Allegheny’s that were also suitors?

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I understand - go to post number two - I addressed that head on.

But the residency is a further listing of where people went undergrad and end up at prestigious academic institutions.

Like you, I understand OP mentioned three schools (Pitzer too) but I wonder if there are others they can consider…unless they are able to swing $850K or so financially (maybe worst case).

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Kenyon doesn’t give merit awards that big, with a 30-ish% acceptance rate. In fact, Grinnell lists Kenyon as a peer institution.

To respond to the OP: My younger one is a first-year at Grinnell and is loving it so far. With both kids, we only had them apply to the LACs that give merit, so neither applied to Carleton. We visited Carleton and St. Olaf with our older one and thought the town was very cute.

I think academically all your options are strong, so it should come down to the budget, location, and “vibe.”

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Kenyon says $15-35K a year but it was a name - yeah, I’m thinking of those that get really, really really aggressive - which could include St. Olaf (Carleton’s cross town with supposedly really good food), Wooster, Allegheny, K, and many more.

Of course, OP has been recruited and maybe doesn’t have other options. Then it’s a question of - they said med school is first and foremost. If their academics struggle, are they potentially going to give up golf?

In the end, if they can afford $850K without haivng to take substantial loans, then cost might be irrelevant. But the $20K at Grinnell is really $23K given the lower cost as well.

Great to hear your student is loving Grinnell. It’s always had a great name.

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Funny, when I was thinking of which sport might be least time-consuming, I thought of golf, which apparently is OP’s sport?

So I looked it up. Seems as if between practices and competitions and travel, D3 golf would be, on average, a 20 hour/week commitment. It would be possible to get the grades while playing golf (although no one on here would recommend that any serious pre-med college student shooting for a 4.0, especially taking challenging science and math classes, work a 20 hour/week part time job). It would not be possible to do all the ECs required, so at least a two year gap would be necessary - but on the other hand, med schools seem to like students who are a bit older, and who took a gap year or two, So as long as the person is willing to be over 30 when they finish their training, not a problem.

That being said, there is still the money issue. Grinnell? Remote farm country, but 20K/yr cheaper (but still over 70K/yr). Carleton? Suburb of a major city, very cold, 95K/yr. I still think that your in-state flagship wins out. It will probably be 30 - 60K/yr cheaper, have more academic and social options because of its size, probably would have more access to research opportunities because of its size. If you wind up switching out of pre-med, flagship state U probably has more available majors and choices, and for the price difference, you can play a hell of a lot of golf, including winter golf trips to Florida, California, and anywhere else that you like, every single year. And you might even be able to walk onto the golf team at Flagship State U.

Of course, your parents probably won’t see it that way. "Mom, Dad, I am choosing to go to Flagship State U, for 35K/yr, instead of Private Golf College, for either 73 or 95K/yr, so how about I take Flagship State U, and you can just deposit the 40-60K difference annually into my checking account? Heck, I’d even be willing to split the difference - how about you just deposit 25K/yr into my checking account, on top of the 35K/yr for Flagship State, and we’ll call it even?

Does that shed a light on the sense of the potential “third option”? Effectively, if you choose Grinnell or Carleton, at 73K or 95K per year, you’re paying an extra 40-60K/yr to play golf. Well, your parents are. As I have said, if they are so wealthy that it makes no difference at all in their lives, or in your or your siblings’ lives, for them to shell out another 200K over the next four years, then great. But for most people it means, at the very least, delaying retirement for a few years, if they have the money, and borrowing, if they don’t, which can mean decreased standard of living and working, well, for the rest of their lives).

Of course, you and your family may decide that it is worth it, for you to go to Carleton or Grinnell. But you need to have a very serious and frank discussion with them, and lay out the options, and talk about money - which many parents are not willing to do with their kids, either because they don’t want junior to know how rich they are, lest junior’s motivation be sapped, or how poor they are, lest junior narrow his options out of legitimate fear of impoverishing his parents forever. It’s an adult decision, and you, on whose behalf this decision is being made, need to be involved.

31

The OP may want to consider - in the event that they may not want to consider med school – where they may want to land post college. While anyone can go anywhere, it may be easier to leverage both the network and name recognition of Pitzer on the West Coast. Ditto for the others in their region.

Of course, college also offers a very low risk way to experience another part of the country on a shorter term basis, so if OP’s curiosity about another part of the country can be satisfied by one of these schools, that’s not a bad thing.

I have known plenty of D3 athletes who have gone on to med school. It takes discipline, but for some, the structure of a sport can help. OP, these are all excellent schools and having assured acceptance by virtue of recruitment is a real privilege. If you’ve tried mapping out your 4 years at each, using the course catalog and factoring in general and major requirements, and they all feel the same, pick on vibe. This will be your home for 4 years! And if there’s still a tie, take the least expensive.

Thinking about the cost of med school is important, but soooo many students who start as pre-med switch course. As college is about exploring and opening your mind, that’s not a bad thing and one to consider.

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32

If you don’t have to consider money, I’d go with Pitzer. It’s in CA (better weather, year-round golf), it’s part of the Claremont colleges, so you’re more likely to find whatever you want/need academically, no matter what you wind up studying.

As I’ve already said too many times, if money is an issue at all, none of these options look as good as your in-state flagship U, for 40-60K/yr less.

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While I can’t speak to the athletic component, which is a major consideration for this student, I’ll share these two topics which address the preparation required for a med school application. There are other topics in the pre-med forum, such as paying for med school, which may also be of interest for the OP and her parents.

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I was a biology major at Carleton. I was not pre-med at the time (which was nice because I felt no pressure and I was learning for learning’s sake), but later I decided to go to medical school. I found my education at Carleton had prepared me well. I took the MCAT cold, and did well enough that I did not need to retake it. The academic classes in medical school were very manageable because I had such a solid base. I was a student athlete at Carleton and had no trouble balancing that with my classes. Carleton prioritizes academics over athletics, and the MIAC is a geographically compact conference. This was over 30 years ago, but I also have a friend whose child is a current student at Carleton, and was accepted to medical school after sophomore year as part of an early-acceptance agreement that Carleton has with a medical school.

So Carleton prepares students well, but many schools can prepare you for med school. My sibling attended a different undergrad school, a regional LAC that has a ~90% acceptance rate, and also successfully became a doctor. So I would go to the school you want to go to. Go someplace where you feel you will be happy, and don’t overstretch yourself financially to go there.

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I have no personal experience with Pitzer, but a distant relative of mine did her Pre-Vet studies there (same classes as Pre-Med) and had a good experience. I don’t believe she was a student athlete, but I know she spent a lot of time in college on her EC.

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I would never accept an ED offer without visiting. Especially as Grinnell is somewhat unique in its isolation. For sports…I would plot Grinnell’s league opponents on a map to get a sense for what your travel times might be. I am betting…a lot of travel.

My pre-med D26 was admitted to Carleton and we visited.

I loved Northfield–a cute midwestern town with a lot of Old West History. My daughter hated it. YMMV. You might do well to visit Carleton too.

We had 2 pre-med tour guides at Carleton. These women were wonderful and SO HONEST (Carleton was a standout for having frank, quirky, truth-telling people). But be warned…they felt that their pre-med program was HARDER than medical school and Carleton told them that the program was designed that way. The rigor at Carleton is next level. So be ready. Every student we talked to complained. Every one. In every major. The way they spoke…it was not like they were being challenged and appreciated the challenge. It was like they felt the level of rigor was over the top. The Trimester system may create some of this.

Having said that, the Carleton students LOVED their professors. We visited 30+ schools and never heard kids gush about their professors so much. In a way, it made no sense…it is the beloved professors, after all, who are pushing the clearly resented rigor. It was almost like military boot camp where trainees are abused by drill instructors, but come to love their drill instructors (which is a real phenomenon).

There were some things about Carleton that I did not like. Many buildings need updating. On our tour, we ran into the University President. She greeted our tour group and spoke to us. Our 2 tour guides rolled their eyes and did not seem to respect her. It bothered me. At some other schools we visited…the President was treated as a celebrity.

Grinnell/Pitzer were not on D26’s list and I know very little about them.

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37

Yes.

But I recognize that this depends on your family’s finances and values, as well as how much you value the differences between the two colleges.

This may help inform your decision:

I think you’ll do great no matter which one you go to!

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