It’s a bit of a tangent, but you bring up an interesting point. Carleton actually had a lower admit rate than Grinnell until the latter dropped their supplemental essay requirement. I suspect that if Carleton felt it would benefit from dropping the supplement (which I understand they still require), they would. I believe Carleton would rather have the additional information to assess fit than a lower admit rate. A number of (fantastic) LACs have dropped their supplement in search of more applicants and lower admit rates, but I applaud Carleton’s approach. Thus far, they may be in an unusual position in having what they see as an adequate volume of highly qualified applications without resorting to such tactics.
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Good pt. If you sample the general population of all applicants, the % would be likely lower. But the general admit rates (or ones based on CDS) are easy to obtain so you use it to ballpark it. Ideally you sample other applicants of similar academic qualifications and characteristics and estimate % chance of acceptance.
Reed, by the way, offers lists of its self-chosen comparison schools:
12 School List
- Carleton College, MN
- Colorado College, CO
- Davidson College, NC
- Grinnell College, IA
- Hamilton College, NY
- Haverford College, PA
- Lewis & Clark College, OR
- Oberlin College, OH
- Occidental College, CA
- Pomona College, CA
- Swarthmore College, PA
- Whitman College, WA
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An ED acceptance can be a relief for a student who is certain that a particular school is their absolute, definite first choice, to the exclusion of all other schools, because they’re done by mid December, the pressure is off, not to mention that it saves a lot of application fees.
But when a family is in the position where they are having to weigh financial aid offers - when they’re not able to pay rack rate, and yet not low enough income that they can reasonably expect an excellent aid package that takes finances off the table, ED application is a bad idea, and honestly, is not operating in good faith.
Then, when you have an applicant who clearly has a wide swath of schools that would all be appropriate for them, treating an ED application as a slight wild-card boost as if the application process were a card game, is clearly inappropriate. Unless their plan from the start is to use that ED to try to get into the slightly more “prestigious” LAC on their list, knowing that if the fin aid offer happens to not be high enough - and anything less than a full ride can be deemed by the family to not be high enough - then it just doesn’t make sense, and yes, it is disingenuous, it is operating in bad faith.
Not to mention that ED for many highly selective schools has become more limited, pretty much for recruited athletes, possibly the only way in which to access legacy advantage, and although they won’t admit it, for LACs who are heavily reliant on undergrad tuition, a way to try to increase the proportion of full-pay students (because yes, they do have ways of knowing whether or not the student is likely to be full pay - for example, they already have a sibling attending who is paying rack rate).
So who am I to judge what is or isn’t the right reason to apply for ED? A person expressing an opinion, just as you are, on a forum where families come for opinions.
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For the curious, I’d created a topic on the statistical advantage for domestic applicants in 2019:
As far as I know, no one else had been discussing the disparity at that time.
I think the OP asked for chances not counseling.
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I’ll throw in my two cents regarding Carleton. D26 visited, talked with her regional AO, interviewed, applied RD and was waitlisted- she was bummed. I thought she had a decent shot, bc of the higher acceptance rate and she was accepted at several schools with much lower acceptance rates. It comes back to holistic review- does your kid fill a demographic slot in their upcoming class? Being from the PNW might be a big plus for your kid. I do think Carleton’s acceptance rate can make it appear less competitive than it really is, as a certain type of kid (super academic high achiever) will be drawn to it.
Your list looks good- I’d consider adding Beloit back in as a safety- the vibe will be similar to Lawrence & Grinnell, and they just announced an all-in pricing guarantee of $30k or under for next year’s class. I’m an alum, and I was very impressed when I went back for my reunion, they also just completed a big esports lounge- you mentioned your DC games, so might be of interest. Denison, IMO, might not be as good of a cultural fit if your kid is drawn to nerdy, non-Greek type schools. Over a third of their students are in Greek life, and it’s a more mainstream as opposed to quirky/nerdy vibe. Finally, don’t be afraid to throw in apps at private schools that are on the “too expensive” side- we were surprised at the range of financial aid and merit offers we received, there was a huge spread- many ended up being far less (and some way more) than the NPC, so screenshot your NPCs in case you need them next spring.
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I agree, Denison is unlikely to be a good fit for a kid who likes Reed enough they are considering ED (but NPC not looking affordable.)
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I disagree. You seem to assume that finances should not play a role in how a family views a college choice. Nice if your family is wealthy enough that $20k vs $80k/yr is a meaningless amount. Not for us. I see nothing in college admissions material that says you must choose as without any financial considerations. A college choice is highly complex and often the choice itself is subjective and not fully understood by the applicant herself/himself (they might think they know). I lose no sleep thinking a college should be a top choice based on cost and other factors. It’s not bad faith except in your own mind.
Good advice. Thanks. And good to consider Greek stuff (esp. in light of the news these days – barf-orama).
Did you talk to CS students at Reed? I’ve heard historically that they have a hard time keeping professors in the department because of the pay structure (all profs paid the same regardless of dept). I know a 26 Reed grad that switched to a math major at the end of freshman year because of issues in the CS dept. But maybe they are better now?
Carleton has historically had a very large number of CS majors, and students there have a hard time getting the classes they need for the major. I know a 26 grad there who ended up with a CS minor because he couldn’t get all his classes. But maybe this is better now if CS is becoming less popular?
I would ask questions about both of these things to people at the schools you are looking at. The issue about class size/getting the classes you want is a real struggle at liberal arts schools. Particularly in CS because it has been hard to get enough professors (because industry pays much more for a PhD than academia does). My daughter was at a liberal arts school for CS. Her teachers were almost all people who made serious bank in industry and then decided to go back and teach.
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Thanks for the suggestions, many are on our list. Certain contours can be drawn around what college characteristics appeal and don’t appeal but it’s hard to capture exactly. And I would argue that even those kids & parents who have crystal clear ideas and opinions – they might think they know what they want AND how each college is – but the picture is more complex. College characteristics are squishy and subjective.
Anyway, my kid does not absolutely love Reed unconditionally. He likes it out of all he’s seen. But there is a lot of unspoken – and likely poorly conceptualized – ideas in his head about what life at Reed would be like. And I suspect there is strong subconscious bias based on its regional location. So it’s hard to say, he loves X therefore he must love Y. But definitely all the Y’s are worth looking at. We remain open minded.
Our overall orientation is: we have a safety that feels darn solid (OSU), but we remain open minded that there could be something that mayyybe a better fit. But we keep asking, if he got accepted, would it really be worthwhile to go far away to College X in terms of travel and cost? (Yes, my kid is very cost-conscious, as am I).
We don’t see things black-n-white, like “here’s our budget and everything that meets the budget gets put into a bucket and treated the same.” Cost is part of the consideration. For example if he gets into Denison @ a super low cost and Carleton at $20k/yr more, the cost definitely weighs heavily into the choice. Every college has pros & cons, including their CS program, availability of other majors, breadth requirement, location, culture/greek b.s., red state/blue state, etc. etc. etc.
I like that my kid is weighing various factors and does not see the world as black-n-white. Not saying he’s weighing things perfectly, just that he’s seeing some of the complexity in the real world. But overall we still remain open minded about the options and are adapting as we move forward. The current plan is to apply RD to many on our short list, and some could be added/dropped.
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He should try and make the EA deadline for all schools that offer that round that are on the list around the EA deadlines.
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Many of the schools on your list likely only offer ED or RD - and that’s fine.
Would he consider another low cost school in a red state, like Wyoming (WUE, very low cost) or the Idaho or Montana schools or a SD School of Mines - all smaller than OSU?
I see you talk about Denison, as an example, so perhaps a red state is open.