Chance Me - SCEA Yale or ED Dartmouth - Social Sciences and Humanities, 3.7 GPA, 1570 SAT

Chance Me / Match Me
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I agree with your points about Rutgers! Luckily for my school, our acceptance history with Rutgers is awesome and they have been super generous with us.

And yes, I have visited and toured every Ivy/top school, attended info sessions, scoured their websites, etc. and compiled comprehensive lists on why I like them and what programs they have suitable for me. So I have pretty extensive lists, but unique reasons for each one.

On the issue of majors, the crux of the problem for me is that I’m interested in goverment/politics, econ, and writing/English. It’s a matter of picking from them depending on the school, then adding the other interests to my curriculum if I get accepted. Thank you so much!

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You said you have a weak math background.

But you are doing pre calc senior year or was that junior year ?

Econ is a lot of math but the good news is - if you are at a school where you choose a major earlier, Econ and English are typically the same college so if a subject isn’t right for you or if you discover another you’ll be able to flip.

You might even find minors or areas of subjects that tilt toward law although it’s not necessary for law school. Some in poli sci, policy, philosophy and sociology. Writing is necessary for law school though so it’s great you enjoy it although it might not be creative in the legal field.

No matter your major though there will be some quant aspect and that’s a good thing bcuz it’s a data driven world.

Since you mentioned Drexel and merit and Oxford and law, and I don’t personally think it’d be a good major in case you decided against law, but U of Arizona is very good in the social sciences, still as of now has big merit and I believe has the only or one of undergraduate legal degree in the country. I know it’s not going on your list but you might enjoy seeing the curriculum. It might be something you can match up in part elsewhere.

Just something for you to peruse. I don’t think you are just a good writer but it seems you like to research too and I appreciate that aspect of you.

One more - I think it’s off your safety list but was on b4 - Charleston has a Crime, Law and Society Minor - so more crime based but some law and I’m not sure your area of legal interest - if you yet have one. I linked the curriculum.

I think you’d have a definite shot for the Fellows program - a subgroup in Honors - if you added it back. Tons of enrichment and mentorship - my daughter is in the program. It’s interesting you have American on your list. It didn’t hit dad’s pre defined budget so sue had to say no to them but it seems a commonly cross shopped school to Charleston. She did do the DC Semester and worked at a think tank and wrote and wrote and wrote. Most schools have a DC semester and that might be a good thing for you too after a few years in school.

https://www.arizona.edu/degree-search/majors/law

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Vassar doesn’t offer merit aid and William & Mary offers extremely little:

Is your family only looking at sticker prices for schools that offer merit aid and then comparing that to Rutgers’ sticker price? Many of the extremely likely admits I mentioned above might give you very generous merit, bringing the price down below Rutgers. If that happened, would your family still feel the same way?

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I think others have posted before on how Oxford views American applicants for a degree in English law. I can’t remember who the poster is who knows Oxford well - @Twoin18 is this you??

"the challenge with law is that in the UK it is effectively a professional degree. So if you don’t have the right to work in a country with a UK-based legal system (basically the Commonwealth countries), there will be a lot of skepticism about your application. Oxford would consider it weird to do a degree in law then another 3 years of US law school. "

I think a different subject (history and politics, English, etc) would be a much better option.

However - do you understand what Oxford is like? 8 week terms, 2 person tutorials with no place to hide as your essays are critiqued, a lot of independent reading and essay writing (several per week), lots of work during the vacations preparing for exams when you get back, high stake end of year exams which determines your grades?

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I’m doing AP Calc AB in senior year (Precalc was junior year). When I say I’m not strong in math, I mean that it’s definitely not my spike/area of interest. Also, Oxford wants to see Calc BC for anything from PPE to pure Economics. They also have an entrance exam with math on it, which would be absolutely horrible for me personally.

I have indeed found many law-relevant majors that I’ve been exploring more! I’m going to take a look at U of Arizona now that you mention the undergrad law program :slight_smile: Drexel is another one of those rare US schools with undergrad law classes, but I won’t apply for it there because they have another equally unique Business Law major which is a great combo of law and econ/business-y stuff. My legal interest is primarily in corporate and IP law, although I love learning about criminal/constitutional law for fun. I’ll also check out Charleston - thank you for the info!

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Yeah…unfortunately my parents are basing their impressions off sticker prices. It doesn’t help that for some of these schools, the scholarships relevant to me all say they award “varying amounts”. :smiling_face_with_tear: I think my parents would consider another college if they gave enough merit to bring the price below Rutgers and they were in good locations, with lots of job/law school success amongst graduates.

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I did have that concern too after reading some of the answers here. However, I actually emailed several Oxford undergrad professors and had dialogue with them as a US student interested in law. They told me they always take a considerable percentage of US undergrad law students relevant to their total acceptances and encouraged me to apply as law if that’s what I’m interested in (it is). Also, one of them in particular mentioned that although Oxford wants to know what you’ll do with your law degree, there is really no “set path” for where you can or cannot go. :slight_smile:

Regarding the nature of Oxford, I do and I’m excited. The tutorial system is one of the best, most unique aspects of an Oxford education! I had a writing teacher who also studied there, and though he said it can be grueling, he said it’s an intellectually wonderful experience and way more unique than something US schools can offer you. He told me he thinks I’d be a great fit (we’ve known each other for many years, and he knows my writing, passions, who I am as a person, etc.). So yes, it’s definitely different from the US system, but I’m excited to take on the challenge and also learn deeply with some brilliant academics. At the end of the day, I’m at college to learn! Even if I get a scathing critique, for example, it might be embarrassing in the short term but it’ll help me in the long term. I also LOVE LOVE LOVE reading and writing essays (it’s actually a key part of college for me - I can’t be somewhere without a lot of reading and writing!). And I’ll probably need to face end-of-year exams no matter where I end up :sob: If I don’t get in, I’ll try to find a US school that hosts study abroad at Oxford so I can have the same experience. My point is, I have looked a lot into what Oxford is like and it’s my #1 dream school besides Yale.

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Undergrad law or law adjacent majors are not going to help getting into the better law schools. They tend to look for students who have demonstrated critical thinking skills. IMO, an English major is more attractive than a “Business Law” major, gpa and test scores being equal.

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I haven’t read your whole thread, but if you love reading and writing essays, maybe take a look at St. John’s College which has a completely unique, great books approach to college education. And despite the name, it’s not religious and it is not the same as St. John’s University! It has two campuses and I believe students can spend time at each (Annapolis and Santa Fe).

St. John’s College | Liberal Arts College with a World-Class Faculty (sjc.edu)

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There’s lots of these - but “good” location is subjective and I don’t think Rutgers has the monopoly on lots of jobs. Law school - again - where you go not relevant. That you got a 1570 so you’ll likely get a high LSAT - very relevant.

So I’m not saying it’s for you - but U of Alabama would cost you $20K all in because of automerit - they buy kids like you in and it’s why they are near 60% OOS including 2k kids from the tri state area, 1500 from Illinios, nearly 2000 from Texas and over 1000 from California. And from a volume POV, the most NMFs in the country (Tulsa has the highest percentage of overall class, by far it appears)

Getting to Rutgers or below isn’t an issue. Schools placing kids in law is not an issue - because as I showed you above, you could go to Montclair or Ramapo - and if you put forth the #s, you’ll be into a great law school. If you don’t go to law, getting jobs isn’t an issue - but that might be more major (and student) driven than school driven. Even a school like Cornell shows most the kids today getting jobs off applying on the Internet. Mine had 19 interviews and 5 offers by Xmas at the school I mentioned for $20K above. But he’s an engineer. If he was in Poli Sci - I’m guessing not a similar amount - but that’s at Harvard as well.

I think your mom has a lot of pre conceived notions - but I also think it’s you who will be on campus, not her.

Paying for Yale and paying for Rutgers are two different things. But you already covered that - so I understand and appreciate that.

But there are many schools who will merit you to a Rutgers cost, whether it’s a Bama which will kill it, a Florida State which will give you an OOS waiver, a Miami of Ohio which doesn’t tell you up front what you’ll get - but they are aggressive or a South Carolina or so many more.

And then there’s LACs - like DePauw, Kalamazoo with its open K curriculum, Rhodes, and many more.

From a merit POV, with your stats, the world is open for you - because schools want to attract students like you that will raise their overall profile - so Rutgers is great and that you love it is awesome. Penn State, as an example, isn’t great. It’s a great school - but it’s not a great school for matching Rutgers price. But there are many that will and will even beat - and they’re great schools - whether or not they’re great for you, is a different issue. But your mom’s concerns shouldn’t be a concern at one state school vs. another. Your abilities - both to test and seek employment (which includes taking advantage of the resources the schools offer you) because that’s where it’s going to come - that will matter no matter where you go. And I’m guessing you’ll be A OK here - we already know you are in the test portion.

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While everyone is trying to help OP with the best of intentions, I see no issues with a list consisting of Rutgers and a bunch of reaches if Rutgers, a fine school, is a safety and is preferable to the various other safeties and matches thrown out for both academic, prestige or financial regions. At the end of the day, I think it is extremely difficult to put together more than 10 or 12 really good apps.

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Williams offers many Oxford-style tutorials and has their own year-long program at Oxford solely for Williams students.

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This is very similar–maybe identical–to the advice that your mother gave you prior to starting this thread. In my opinion, it is excellent advice.

Academic environments vary in quality. My position is that an intelligent, hard-working, motivated student should surround herself with similar peers.

Earlier in this thread, I recommended a university that I thought might jump to the top of your list based on your desire to study at Oxford and your desire for a full tuition plus scholarship. Surprised that this university did not make your list. Wonder if you are receiving too many suggestions to digest in such a short period of time.

Nevertheless, I encourage you to look into the joint degree program (not the program that I noted above) offered by William & Mary and the University of St. Andrews in Scotland. Students spend two years on each campus. I do not recommend this program for you, but I do think that exposure to the structure of the program should help you to refine your desires.

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Have to respectfully disagree. This has been discussed at length on other threads,. OP, while “Harvard” Law has students from “171” undergrad institutions, the concentration of students from certain T20 schools is extremely high. We can argue causation vs correlation, but IMO the concentration is too high to not conclude that undergrad pedigree does matter for some schools. Yes the kid from Montclair with a 4.0 and a 177 LSAT has a great chance at Harvard, but if that were a 3.8 and a 172, I like the Harvard undergrad kid with a 3.8/172 chances better.

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While I agree, my sense is the list above is likely to result in Rutgers being the only choice. If the student is truly ok with that, then it is a good strategy for them. Unfortunately, all too often we see students on this board who take a 1 safety/remainder reaches strategy who end up devastated when their safety is their only choice - because they didn’t really believe it could happen to them. This is an excellent student with outstanding ECs but a weaker gpa than is the norm at the reaches she is looking at. Maybe the AO’s will look past it, but they have such an abundance of outstanding applicants that it isn’t a good bet. That’s why I suggested adding some more targets - excellent schools that have a higher than single digit acceptance rates.

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Yes, you are correct.

However, the young student can apply to several state flagship universities at which she is aiming for honors college scholarships and other honors college benefits where she is almost certain to be admitted to those particular universities.

As many know, the top undergraduate honors college in the nation is at the University of Georgia with Rutgers-NB Honors College ranked at #18–which is outstanding. U Virginia-Echols Scholars is at #9, while UNC-chapel Hill Honors College is at #14.

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I agree with @BKSquared but OP is very participatory which makes it fun for all. And I appreciate OP for participating although I do think the Rutgers and above, while dangerous for the psyche, isn’t a bad strategy.

And on @gotham_mom post - you know who also has Tutorials and gives bit merit - Ohio U. So that’d be - not as big as Rutgers but along the same lines of a large public (with merit) that has the rare Tutorials offering.

Honors Tutorial College | Ohio University

Programs of Study | Ohio University

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Harvard does not have that many in its 1L class - less than 600 that those 147 are coming from.

Now Rutgers won’t have the concentration of top students to begin with that Harvard has…but I when you have 147 schools represented at less than 600 students, one cannot say - yes, going to that top school gives you such an edge. But will more come from top schools - yes, for the same reason they came from undergrad.

It’s the same at Penn, UVA and other top schools. Penn has kids (not first year but overall) from 239.

There will be resource advantages, there will be smarter kids to hang out with yes - but Georgia State, FIU, Kansas State, Tennessee Tech and the list goes on and on…last year Fairleigh Dickinson - are at Harvard.

If you have the goods, you can get in - and there are many top law schools beyond the one I mention.

It just so happens that top schools undergrad have more top kids.

I spoke to a parent at Fordham about this recently - and he was told the same. His went to a top 10 public - but they were told that up front - LSAT, LSAT, LSAT.

Anyway, we can agree to disagree.

I totally get OPs strategy - and at some point we’ll overhelm the student with ideas - I do wish OP though and not mom, were the decision maker here.

But the parents want a high ranked school and I get it. But it’s nice to know they recognize the strength of Rutgers as a fall back.

But since OP mentioned others at the cost of Rutgers - they can really determine the type of school they want - maybe it’s not a big public - and find other cost effective schools in the size and environment they might like.

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As soon as I read this I immediately thought of Ohio U.'s honors tutorial college, but @tsbna44 beat me to it.

This website might be helpful for your family: Merit Aid by Institution – College Transitions

It’s an aggregator that looks at the percentage of students without financial need who received merit aid and what the average merit aid package was. So if only 2% receive merit but it’s a really big award, or whether 90% of students get a small award, or if 50% get a big award. It’s not a guarantee of anything, but it can help provide some idea of possibilities. As with any aggregator, it is best to verify the information from the primary source for any schools you become interested in. That information can be found on a schools Common Data Set in section H2. (And if a school is not included in the aggregator, just do a search with “College Name” and “Common Data Set.”

Additionally, even though your family may not qualify for need-based aid, check the Net Price Calculator at schools of interest. If it asks for your academic stats (GPA and test score) then it will likely provide a minimum amount of merit aid that you could expect.

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[quote=“blooberry88, post:165, topic:3668646”]
My legal interest is primarily in corporate and IP law, although I love learning about criminal/constitutional law for fun.

It’s posts like this that suggest that OP needs to invest an hour in basic research before going wild on the law school plan.

Every law school in America teaches the same first year curriculum. Constitutional law is not an elective. It is required. You cannot pass the bar exam without mastering criminal procedure, civil procedure, constitutional, etc. Any prospective law student needs to understand the curriculum before determining that an overseas degree or undergrad in a law adjacent field is helpful. I’m not being condescending…this is reality…

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