College Choices for Average Student?

kharts · October 10, 2006, 11:13pm

We have had an army of counselors, psychatrists, psychologists on the case including a family therapist working with us and him and his mom. We do what we can. We’ve ruled out clinical depression or any other psychiatric disorders, issues, and learning disorders. What we are dealing with is a lot of behavioral issues. For depression, disorders, disabilities, we’d mount a court battle to intervene. For behavior issues that we are providing him with every resource to get in control, we’re just not willing to mount that battle.

We spent last year in litigation because of a divorce decree that requires my husband to pay room and board. His daughter wanted to move off campus. After much begging/pleading, he agreed but only under a variety of conditions including an agreement from his ex and his daughter that if she moved her boyfriend into the apartment, he wouldn’t pay rent. (Still paid for tuition, books, food, etc., but not rent.) She moved him in, lied about it, and when we found out, we stopped paying rent. About a year later, his ex sued us saying it didn’t matter that they had once agreed or that their daughter had lied. He had to pay up. We refused, and she dropped the lawsuit only after she went through thousands upon thousands of dollars and couldn’t afford to continue. It was miserable, miserable and things are only just now beginning to heal a little bit. I’m not interested in another battle under these circumstances.

But that doesn’t mean that I don’t have empathy for him, and so I’m willing to help steer him a bit.

Alcohol issues? I know he drinks occasionally–at his mom’s house, no less, but I don’t sense it’s abuse. I’m pretty confident drugs aren’t the issue. The kid is honest about stuff he does to a fault.

As for gaming, our house is a World of Warcraft free zone during the week, and for this and other reasons, he won’t spend time here.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond. I know it’s a situation that makes you just want to reach through and shake us as there obviously are mountains of issues that selecting a college won’t fix. But it’s a way for us to forge a connection and feel like maybe we’re doing something rather than watching the train wreck.

jmmom · October 11, 2006, 4:49am

kharts - I respect the parents who bring up non-college-choice issues for your consideration, on the chance that you might not have thought of these things. This board can be so helpful that way.

But, to me, it’s clear that, although you cannot be omniscient, you and your H have really got your eyes and hearts on the whole picture here. And you’re hoping that the approach to college for him can get him started educationally and maybe even break through some of the other issues he’s got.

I hope that the glimmers of motivation you are seeing from him do come to fruition with your and his dad’s support in the college search process. Keep us posted.

Westchestermom · May 3, 2007, 12:34am

Kharts, I feel for you and I am sorry you’re dealing with this extremely heartwrenching situation with your stepson. A couple of thoughts…

Firstly, I think your stance regarding the car is good. Your SS seems to have little structure in his life and at least in this one area he’s learning that he’s not entitled. I think stick your ground even if it seems like it’s not working. It is sending a message.

Secondly, kudos to you for maintaining a World of Warcraft free zone, though it sounds like he’s seeking his fix elsewhere. This sounds like a MAJOR MAJOR issue, not to be underestimated. Unfortunately, breaking an internet addiction is not an easy thing. The time spent playing the game is no doubt a factor in his poor academic performance and lack of extracurricular interests. His emotional and familial situation makes him particularly vulnerable to an MMORPG addiction. (Massively Multiple OnLine Role Playing Game)

<a href=“Doctor claims 40 percent of World of Warcraft players are addicted | Ars Technica”>Doctor claims 40 percent of World of Warcraft players are addicted | Ars Technica;
<a href=“http://www.wowdetox.com/[/url]”>http://www.wowdetox.com/</a>

There are many personal stories posted on wowdetox.com. Maybe showing a few to your stepson would strike a chord and possibly open his eyes to what is going on with his obsession with the game. (Though more likely he’ll be in denial).

I tend to think the community college option is one to keep on the table. I don’t think it necessarily makes sense to finance failure.

I think if he displays interest in college, some degree of motivation and enthusiasm, some effort to bring up his grades and prep for the SATS, then a private college should be considered with parameters such as a semester review of grades and limits on yearly cost. (Although if he pulls less than a 2.0 mostly likely the college will kick him out for you). You’ll know this behavior when you see it. His question to you is a tiny, but good start. The good news about finding a private college is that it will require some effort from him.

I wouldn’t worry too much about mounting a search to find a college that is really unselective to ensure his acceptance with his current GPA. The crucial thing is finding a college that turns him on and generates some excitement. If that happens, if he seems to be taking some responsibility, then it’s an option worth exploring. Don’t make it too easy for him- I think he needs to be involved in the work of the college search which is considerable. Stress to him that you’ll help, but this is a path that’s up to him. Ask him to share his plans and strategies for academic success. Do a little handholding if he’ll let you- make sure he knows what support options are available at the institution he enrolls at (counselling, tutoring etc.)

On the other hand, if he maintains a disinterested stance, acting as though college is something he’s forced to do, or placing the ball in your court, then community college strikes me as a very reasonable option which should satisfy the court mandated requirement to pay for college (it is college after all). I don’t think you should be bullied into paying for a private college if there’s no display of some amount of increase in maturity and responsibility. It seems to me that part of your parental responsibility is to guard those funds and make sure they are invested wisely. Remember that if there are attempts to induce guilt/emotional blackmail from SS or the Biomom.

binx · May 3, 2007, 8:42am

I haven’t read the whole thread, so forgive me if I am repeating something someone else suggested. I noticed early on that your stepson was thinking about music production, and that he likes computers. Also, that he wants to go out of state. And reading between the lines, I’m wondering if a 4 year commitment to some place might not be realistic. With that in mind, I am going to suggest this place:

<a href=“http://www.sae-nashville.com/[/url]”>http://www.sae-nashville.com/</a>

SAE has a number of locations, and higher level degrees are offered elsewhere. However, we have friends who have a son who very much fits your stepson’s description, who has finally settled, after several false starts, in Nashville, working toward the certificate.

Another school you might want to look at is Middle Tennessee. Pretty easy to get into, and has an excellent “recording industry” program.

hysteron_proteron · May 3, 2007, 6:09pm

Perhaps going to an out-of-state school, even one that is relatively noncompetitive, would “do the trick,” so to speak, and motivate your son to put forth some effort.

A personal anecdote:
A good friend of mine from high school was extraordinarily intelligent and scored a 1590 on the SAT, which is the highest score ever achieved by a student from our school. His GPA, however, was around a 2.5 by the time we graduated, and his parents decided that he needed to stay in-state. He went to a small Christian college (probably the worst fit ever), but withdrew a few weeks in to first semester.
Another friend was in pretty much the exact same situation (nearly identical transcript and GPA), albeit with a lower SAT. He ended up at an out-of-state public school. Going out of state really helped - it wasn’t as easy to give up/become complacent, and he didn’t feel like he was being punished for his dismal high school effort. I think there’s also something to be said for going to a school where you don’t know anyone. If you don’t see people from high school in all of your college classes, you don’t feel like you need to make excuses for why you ended up at a “no-name” college or keep up appearances by continuing not to try. It is, in every sense, a new start.

I don’t mean to sound preachy. I’m sorry that things are so difficult for you and your family. Best of luck - I hope you’re able to make a decision that’s right for everyone.

momofthreeboys · May 3, 2007, 9:02pm

I tend to agree with Hysteron. Also I think if he wants to go to college he should. It sounds like the finances are not too much of an issue and it might be the absolute thing that turns him around in your eyes. Perhaps there is too much static in his “home” or “hometown” or “homestate” that is contributing to his disengagement. If he were my son I would try to ascertain where he sees himself in a year, in two years in terms of where would he live if he could be anywhere. What does he see himself doing? You might find a few small and midsize colleges in whatever area of the country he sees himself. If he engages and exhibits a glimmer of interest…go from there. From everything you’ve said, to me, living at home and going to a nearby community of state school is not the answer. He needs a goal somewhere in the future and the goal has to be his goal, not a parent goal. This is a tough, tough age and there could be any one of a dozen things happening in his school or with his friends that is contributing to his attitude. Even most seemingly well adjusted kids are under tremendous stresses emotionally and physically in high school.

momofthreeboys · May 3, 2007, 9:23pm

Oh one thing I saw and can share from my son. Of his "group’ of closest friends, kids that were friends from the elementary years, the junior and senior year were years where the differences between the boys starting spilling over into their personal relationships. From the weathy friend who slid through high school and into college with high test scores and abysmal grades greased by his well known parents, the friend who went to work doing shift work at a factory to earn enough money to go to college “someday”, to the boy who is going off to the local State U, to the boy who managed to get several MIPs and a DUI and spent a couple weeks in jail, to the senior scholar whose divorced parents are so embattled that neither will pay for the public Ivy he got into and he has no idea what he is going to do…there was so much angst, drama, sulleness, depression, happy times and sad times emotionally this year. These boys grew a lifetime emotionally while they really learned about class differences, what being an adult in the eyes of the law really meant, and learned that your friends may be embarking on different paths and while they began to understand that parents really can move mountains…or not. Pretty heavy stuff to cram into a year or two. My son barely talks to his dad although I know he loves him, they just are coming from different places right now, but he talks to me and my heart has been bleeding as I watched him and his friends struggle this year. Do something alone with your boy - go to the mall and buy him clothes or go to dinner just the two of you and see if you can get him to talk…then just listen… you may be able to help him see a path he just can’t see right now. My son tells me to back off plenty and there are days when all he can manage verbally are grunts, but every once in a while the crack opens abit and the very real thoughts spill and those moments are priceless and reassuring that while everything is in turmoil everything is going to be OK.

walkinghome · May 3, 2007, 11:48pm

The last posts have been so thoughtful that I hesitate to point out that this thread was started last October with the most recent post from the OP dated October 10. Hopefully, things are getting better now.

binx · May 4, 2007, 8:05am

Kathiep - Oops. I read the first and last pages, and never noticed the dates. Oh well, maybe it will help someone else. Surely there’s more than one “average” kid. (But maybe not here.)

laps5 · May 8, 2007, 6:10pm

look into McNally Smith College of Music in St. Paul

gilgo · September 21, 2007, 1:34pm

What a relief to find a parent with a child that doesn’t have perfect gpa, sat and ecs and has spent his summer vacation in the peace corps! Yes, some kids ARE just busy being teenagers and not quite ready for the work world.

That said, my son is in a tough highschool but also spent his first 3 years playing world of warcraft – he is a little bit more involved in school because he’s extremely social so he has joined some clubs, etc. his gpa is 2.9, sats verbal 560 math 670 writ 590. I have spent hours reading Colleges that Change lives and pouring through college books, magazines, and these sites BECAUSE CTCL was the only book I found that actually listed options for kids with b and c averages. Unfortunately – since the publication of Loren Pope’s book, it seems that these schools are also tougher to get into – most of them expecting gpas of 3.7 plus high sats. My son likes Juniata, RIT and Goucher.

I agree with what some people are saying, however, about putting your foot down. WE basically told my son that he had to get a job this summer because we weren’t supporting him if he wasn’t going to be responsible. Well, he did. It helped a little but he’s already doing the bare minimum this year again – so we have cut him off financially for a month (of course that doesn’t mean food & lodging – just spending money) until he decides that independence does not mean being entitled and not making an effort but EARNING from hard work and effort.

We are very low income but do not want to send him to State school so he can just goof off so we are hoping that this final semester in senior year he will grow up, and then hope that his senior year grades will show improvement and get him in the door – thus proving that he will work when he gets into college – otherwise its city or state schools.

I agree that Community College can be a depressing scenario and don’t want to take the chance that he’ll feel like a failure. I’ll let you know how we make out.

tommybill · September 21, 2007, 2:56pm

Buy a copy of and read Loren Popes book Colleges that Change Lives

His other book Looking Beyond the Ivy League is also very good, but more for achievers than ordinary students.

LetItBe · October 10, 2007, 10:00pm

I’m going to be blunt. You son has an addiction to WOW – all of the pleasure centers in his brain are on fire due to this. Trust me, this is an epidemic in our pressure cooker part of the country.

Also, do not rule out LDs until you have a neuropsychologist do a comlete battery of tests. The final report should be about 20 pages long and will illuminate everything.

Given the alleged intelligence of those on this list, I find it stunning that so many people still buy the “bootstrap” approach to low-output in a young person. Do you really believe people want to fail?

Oh, and read anything you can get your hands on by Mel Levine.

LetItBe · October 10, 2007, 10:02pm

P.S. Why do parents allow their children unbridled access to the Internet, T.V, and gaming when they are so immature and vulnerable? When their frontal lobe isn’t developed yet (impulse control)? I will never understand this form of sabotage. In our house, we have laptops only. Our daughter gets 1 hour per day on hers and it comes into our room for the night. Ditto cell phone.

cheers · October 11, 2007, 12:20am

kharts…even though you are very disappointed in him, your son’s SAT shows that he has limited natural gifts. Those abilities may be capped by learning disabilities–it’s hard to know. I seriously doubt that all of his problems stem from WOW. More likely, he is using WOW to avoid the reality of his inabilities.

As frustrated as you are, try to fast forward a decade or two and imagine what it is like to have an un-educated, under-functioning son–who may add a child or two to his responsiblities–and your worry. You don’t know what worry is until you’ve worried about the well-being of your grandchildren.

You already know that you don’t have to worry about your other two–what a blessing. Your youngest son is the one who needs the most help–and possibly the most money. If you don’t find a college which will help him get up onto the rails of education and decent income, you may find that his troubles and your worry expand exponentially.

Absolutely, the best solution is for him to get additional education and adequate career training–money be damned. Personally, to find the best school and the best major for him, I would hire an educational consultant with extensive experience in boys with limited abilities. You can find a reasonably priced ($2500) one through the IECA <a href=“http://www.educationalconsulting.org%5B/url%5D”>www.educationalconsulting.org</a>

Mombot · October 11, 2007, 12:58am

kharts–I skipped about five pages of helpful suggestions about this college or that, so I apologize if I’m repeating suggestions you got, but this kid DOES NOT belong in college. You would only waste his time and your money.

I suggest the Coast Guard or the Air Force–as a fallback the Navy. No guarantees as those are the service branches that are getting the recruits so they can afford to be picky, but your description of a lack of structure and a lack of accountability cries out for this boy to do military service before you invest vast sums into college for him.

I live in WA and I have to say Evergreen would be a poor choice for somebody of his description…Evergreen only works if you are “too weird” for high school but have great motivation…you can ID those kids because they are very successful in something OTHER THAN classwork…D’s friend nearly didn’t graduate but was lead in several drama productions…another one barely graduated but was waylaid by health and family issues…it was not a lack of motivation. Evergreen kids NEED to be motivated student and independent learners to do well in that kind of unstructured environment. Evergreen is not a place for the lazy student…just for the misplaced or misunderstood student.

BunsenBurner · October 11, 2007, 2:15am

kharts, my apologies, I did the same thing - skipped through the pages. Mombot is right about Evergreen.

I know some kids like yours who blossomed in community colleges. In our state, WA, there are some great community colleges that offer 2-year degrees which can be continued at UW or Washington State U. Believe it or not, community colleges offer smaller classes and more personal attention from the teachers than identical freshman courses at UW or WSU. There are a lot of bright kids who go that route to save on the tuition money. My H mentors an intern from a community college who just recently transferred to a UW science program. This kid is is going to be a published author in a peer-reviewed journal soon! Do not dismiss this option.

Also, not everyone needs a college degree. Some go on to trade schools like ITT, Digipen, etc.

cheers · October 11, 2007, 4:25am

Community college is the toughest way to go, in my opinion. The peer group is too fractured, too distracted with the pressures of working life. Community college works well for highly motivated, highly independent students ie students who succeed in any environment. In my experience, it is the educational death knell for unmotivated, underperforming kids.

What is the answer for those kids? A small, specialized school. Luckily, there are hundreds. NSM talks about Rollins. I’ve seen the Jesuits perform miracles. There is a great college out there for this boy. He has a fund available. He can make a go of this opportunity.

C students deserve to go to college. Heck, C students are the ones who need the resdiential college experience the most! More than the A students cetianly. The thickest employee I ever had was a solid C- student with a nice smile. 15 years later, he’s a world-travelled executive with a Fortune 200 corporation. He stayed on track, married a gorgeous girl, found a few mentors and is raising three children. Steady, steady, little by little.

This boy has two superstar siblings. Denying him a college experience might open a rift between the children. Believe me, an education gap can cause huge heartaches in the decades to come–heartaches for the whole family–and it is nearly impossible to repair.

BOYSOFWINTER · October 11, 2007, 8:24am

My oldest son emotionally and academically “skipped” high school, the reason for which we haven’t figured out a dozen years later. His high school was super competitive, not a good fit for him, but he refused to consider any kind of private school. He spent his days in our kitchen – where we had moved his computer to limit usage – playing video games and later teaching himself programming. There were a few courses he came alive for, e.g., economics with a stimulating teacher. He did have internships at a top financial services company for three summers where he came alive and worked at a high technical level, so we knew he had potential, and he could get along with and was liked by people he respected.
His corporate handle was “Doogie Hauser.”

His choices for college were limited because of low GPA and SAT scores, although like your stepson he assumed he’d attend. He chose UMass Lowell because he respected its computer science program; he wouldn’t get out of the car at several private colleges. He floundered through freshman year taking remedial courses because he hadn’t learned math basics in high school. By sophomore year he was on academic probation and spoke of moving to California. Needless to say, all these years were tough on my husband and myself. We knew we had provided him a supportive and loving family life but felt powerless to motivate him.

Midway through sophomore year the department chair for the computer science department pulled him aside and read him the riot act: You think you’re going to be a top computer scientist? Think again. You are almost out the door and then what will you do; you will not be hired by any company.

My son took this professor’s admonition to heart; it obviously mattered to him what this man thought and he did want success in life. And he had seen his classmates from less affluent backgrounds working terribly hard because they were paying the tuition themselves. He moved back home and commuted to school. He had so much learning to catch up on! He sat in the same corner in our kitchen and studied literally nonstop for two and a half years. My husband and I alternated between being so relieved and happy and wishing he wasn’t always there under our feet with his piles of books and nalgene bottles.

He ended up graduating with a decent GPA and was hired by a prestigious local computer company. He is a software engineer, an inveterate learner, perpetually curious, and engaged to a brilliant Ph.D. who also will be a lifelong learner.

I guess the moral of his story is to have patience with the late-bloomer. I am so glad I didn’t alienate him when he was not performing. And going to a nonprestigous college can be the perfect choice.

northeastmom · October 11, 2007, 8:41am

First of all, Kharts has not posted on this thread for a some time. It was revived by giglo last month bc giglo has a son who has a gpa of 2.9 with pretty good SAT scores.

As far as this thinking goes, a 3.7 is not a 3.7 everywhere. Be careful. I recently attended an info session in the south. There were several students and their families there from the northeast. It was kind of strange bc only one student was there from the state where this school is located. Several questions about stats were asked. The admissions officer stated that in their state there is gade inflation. He stated that other areas of the country (he was speaking broadly bc naturally there are so-so high schools, and much more competitive high schools everywhere) there is little grade inflation. This school does take those differences into account. My point is that you should not underestimate the 2.9, and his SAT scores are not bad. I don’t want to encourage reaching for inapporpriate schools, but this gpa might not be so horrible, depending upon your son’s high school.

Giglo, you also go on to say that you do not want a state school bc it will give him opportunity to goof off. Frankly, there are temptations everywhere. In the end it will be up to your son to buckle down and seek help. My son attends a state school. He has to work or he will be on academic probation, and ultimately kicked out. Believe me, he does his work. State schools are not necessarily “easier” than private schools.

College Choices for Average Student?

CONNECT WITH US