I was tired and frazzled and took a long time to respond, so I cross-posted with @doschicos and @bodangles. I missed everyone’s posts, and I made the same assumptions that @bodangles and @doschicos did. So much so that I bragged in a very uncharacteristic way. I think I need to go back to reading posts and actually posting very little. :-S
Being judgmental is not a bad thing, in my opinion. “Anything goes and nobody has the right to judge me for it,” will not get you to where you want to go. Unless, of course, you want to go nowhere. I know people with jail tattoos and piercings…tough to get a decent job.
Teaching our kids that they can look any way they want, at any time, isn’t doing them any favors. I’m not sure why having that opinion draws out such venom, because it is the truth. I’m not talking about summer clothing. I think we do our kids a disservice by pretending it doesn’t matter.
Y’know, people can do/be both.
Really. I promise.
Intelligence doesn’t drop because you choose to show skin.
Really. I promise.
Sometimes I really want to move to a nudist colony. Not because I want to be a nudist necessarily, but because maybe I’d finally get some relief from seeing/hearing the constant debates over a woman’s clothing choices.
I’d like to raise any potential daughters there, too. Maybe then they wouldn’t be told from a young age that they need to cover up because men are apparently unable to help themselves from everything ranging from gawking to raping. (No, I don’t believe that they are, but that’s the message that gets sent when a girl is sent home for a bar strap showing, etc)
Being judgemental is different from knowing that other people can be judgemental. The latter is desirable while the former often is not desirable.
lots of people were having lots of opinions and discussing what they thought was appropriate and what they taught their kids. Mostly a nice discussion. I do see what you are saying about total relativism and ‘absolutely anything goes’. What I think people were reacting to is when you labeled people as prostitutes and sleazes and made comments that implied people that had different clothing standards couldn’t be smart or even motivated. Just too tired to continue.
Oh, and I think we reacted to the sense that your 1st post seemed to contain some venom as well, and venom directed at women. Women that you don’t know and are just wearing clothes you don’t approve of. Just my opinion. Sorry for all the multiple posting. Really done now.
A lot of comments made in this thread reminded me of the kerfuffle over Emma Watson’s Vogue cover photo. She was called a hypocrite by some people for posing topless. Her response was, “It just always reveals to me how many misconceptions and what a misunderstanding that there is about what feminism is,” she said. “Feminism is about giving women choice. Feminism is not a stick with which to beat other women with. It’s about freedom, it’s about liberation, it’s about equality. I really don’t know what my tits have to do with it.”
I thought her response was excellent. Sorry for the sidetrack, continue with the discussion about judging young women for dressing like prostitutes and showing their private parts…
http://fortune.com/2017/03/06/emma-watson-vanity-fair-photo-feminism-response/
And even then, the value of the judgmentalism of others is quite variable. Especially when it is another variant of “Get off my lawnism” by those who want to uncritically maintain supposed traditions of dubious provenance/usefulness.
Moreso if it’s based on catering to double-standards and the false premise that one gender cannot be socialized to learn a modicum of basic self-control which was once not only considered good parenting, but also basic minimal expectations of some elementary schools like the one I attended in the '80s.
@busdriver11 I couldn’t agree more: “Teaching our kids that they can look any way they want, at any time, isn’t doing them any favors. I’m not sure why having that opinion draws out such venom, because it is the truth. I’m not talking about summer clothing. I think we do our kids a disservice by pretending it doesn’t matter.”
And for those who keep going back to my “skank” comment, it wasn’t the bra strap, it was the DIRTY and GREY that makes it skanky. If you are ok with your young girls wearing short shorts and belly shirts wherever they want, that is your perogative but can’t we all agree that when they show their dirty underwear they’ve crossed a different line?
@MIMomma:
I too would be uncomfortable seeing our daughter dress that way.
The reality is she is 20 and your days of influencing her wardrobe decisions are long gone. Trying to do so will have no good ending, especially for you.
I fully understand how you felt with that. Unfortunately your choices may be limited to telling her if she chooses to dress that way, she’s not invited to the family occasions that you host.
At some point in the future she will learn to not dress this way. She has to learn that herself.
I realize I went into the middle of a conversation without reading the entire thread, which is always a mistake. I guess my fictitious girls are lucky they weren’t born, because they’d have to hear my judgmental lectures. It appears obvious to me that @NEPatsGirl and I were both referring to the extreme. Apparently using trigger words lightly bring out the rage in some.
So I regret expressing my opinion, which obviously enrages so many people, when you were all having a peaceful conversation. I suggest that you continue past the opinion of those that disagree with you, and carry on your “nice discussion” regardless.
Is that what you’re teaching your sons? That if women dress in ways that they deem are “like a prostitute” the women don’t have the right to expect respect? Attitudes show a lot about a person’s morals and intelligence too. The premise that prostitutes aren’t deserving of respect is flawed, and it’s unfortunate if that’s what you’re teaching your sons.
We’ve taught our children that all people are deserving of respect until they show, based on how they treat you, that they’re not. And we’ve taught our daughter that men who have preconceived attitudes about a woman’s morals and availability based on the way she dresses are neither smart nor decent enough for her.
Decent men are respectful of all women. They don’t assume that the way women choose to dress is an invitation to look at their bodies, and they don’t think much of men who do.
It’s funny.
A thread that concentrates so much on respect is forcing me to lose mine for some here.
I think it’s time for me to bow out.
Interesting that a person who is apparently advocating people feeling to free to dress so as to reveal their bottom, breasts, and possibly genitalia in public is reduced to calling them PRIVATE parts, thereby acknowledging that in our society they are usually, beyond a certain point, well, private.
@bodangles, acknowledging that clothing is a social signifier does not equate to thinking that a glimpse of a bra strap=skank. As I’m quite sure you are aware. Frankly, I’m not quite sure what a “skank” is supposed to be in the first place.
For the record, I don’t assume anything about a woman’s sexuality based solely on how she dresses. I do sometimes think private thoughts about her taste and judgement. A lot of that is, I realize, based on class, as someone said above, and even regional factors.
I’m still bemused that I’m apparently the only person who finds it odd that the only class of person mentioned on the entire thread who can be chastised for what they wear is a woman in her 80s. No one has any thoughts on that?
That’s another word that needs to be eliminated from our vocabulary. It implies cheap and trampy. If you’re going to make assumptions, there are plenty of choices between morally decent and cheap. Perhaps the woman is low income and can’t afford new bras. Maybe she was never taught to separate darks and lights when she does laundry. It’s possible she isn’t even aware that it’s not a good look. There are plenty of people who don’t pay attention to clothing details. Unless they’re gang colors, all you can accurately conclude about them is that they dress in a way that you wouldn’t.
Have daughters, friends. Beautiful, smart, accomplished, hard working, sensitive, generous, resilient, loyal and loving daughters.
Have daughters and see the many choices these fine gals make that may not be your preference.
I try not to negatively judge my girls. It generally backfires. Instead, I guide. And the fact that I try not to go off the deep end has contributed to their own emerging maturity. That’s really what we want- individuals who reflect us, but chart their own path to happiness and leave their own positive impact on those around them.
Life’s a B. I don’t fret over a bra strap. Step back and try for some perspective. There’s much worse out there. Peace.
Knowing that others can be judgemental is also different from approving of others being judgemental.
@NEPatsGirl, I did not mean to call you out or keep going back to the word skank, I was responding to other posts as well. I said in my first post that I completely understand when people have different views and attitudes toward clothing. That is very valid and understandable. What I took issue with is using such derogatory words towards people based simply on clothing choice.
I really don’t like the idea of calling people skanks, sluts, sleazes, whores and prostitutes based on what they’re wearing, especially young women and teens. I also really disagreed with people making value judgments based on what someone was wearing, and judging their motivations, character and morals because of a short skirt. Lots of factors go in to what someone wears, so I don’t think assuming someone is selling something or looking for sexual attention should be assumed.
For what it’s worth, I feel skank is a strong term because of a dingy strap. Maybe she is indigent and is so used to older clothes she doesn’t really notice. Maybe she notices it’s grey and hates it, but it’s all she has. Maybe she is a perfectly lovely person but was just raised with different standards. I understand what you are saying, but the sheer number of very strong words against women caused me to comment, and I do stand by it.
@busdriver11 , I was not triggered or enraged. Just expressing a different opinion.
Sorry, everyone. I’m not a frequent poster and I started my post a while ago, had to leave it and then cross-posted with
@austinmshauri . I did not see or mean to reiterate those points.
"If you dress like a prostitute, why would it be a surprise when men of all ages stare at you, and think you may be one
I think the problem with this statement is obvious, it can imply that if a woman is wearing something revealing, or heavy makeup or whatever, then if they get an inappropriate reaction to it, well, it is the woman’s fault. I have seen plenty of girls and older women dressed in ways I wonder if they realized what they looked like, but it also in effect is condoning what the men are doing. When the young Muslim men they have been having trouble with in Germany and elsewhere grope young women or sexually assault them, their reasoning is basically this, that because (according to their wonderfully sexually enlightened faith, or what has been taught to them anyway) they are dressed ‘immorally’, because they aren’t dressed ‘modestly’, therefore they are justified in what they did since the women are ‘asking for it’ (Islam does have some things to answer for IMO, as does some conservative branches of other faiths, in that they teach this kind of bs). It wasn’t long ago that what a woman was wearing when raped was considered fair game at trial, with the explicit idea that ‘she was asking for it’.
The thing is, you can look at someone and say that is inappropriate without associating it with being a ‘loose woman’ and the like, or that somehow they must be a skank or sleaze. Clubwear in a dance club or bar is one thing, wearing it to work is another, and if I had a daughter I would explain to her that there is appropriate clothing for the circumstances you are in, and that while as an adult she has to make choices, that can impact how she will be treated and to take that into mind when dressing for something. Hanging out with a bunch of friends is very different than the office or maybe going to visit relatives, and in the end to be honest kids learn by doing, and yep failing. Things do change, what women wear to the office these days is something that would get you sent to HR not long ago (flip flops, short skirts, skyscraper heels and to a certain extent low cut tops are pretty common to at least not uncommon), with men it has gone from suit and tie, to business casual (khaki and dress shirt) to jeans and polos or whatnot in many places (obviously, depends on the job, suit and tie more common with public facing jobs). What I wear to work these days would be considered “slobwear” 30 years ago shrug…
The fact that people will stare or judge someone for what they wear is a reality, but I think it is important also to make the point that that judgement is not warranted. If I had a daughter who was starting a new job and dressed like a Khardasian, I would have a sit down and tell her that she is a bright, intelligent person and that unfortunately there are people who judge people from the way they dress, rather than what they do, and unless the rest of the office dresses like that (which I would tell her "if they all dress like that, maybe you can be the rebel and dress down:), you may want to rethink it. The world would be a lot better place if they followed Tom Paine’s words about judgement and the word “tolerance”, he said tolerance and non tolerance had the same fundamental flaw in them, that someone has the right to judge another person, but in reality people don’t go by “stupid is as stupid does”, they do judge by appearences and while people have the right to rebel against this, they also should know the consequences. It is especially unfair with women, it is funny, handsome men, men who are physically attractive, are seen as a plus in the work world, whereas a good looking woman already has assumptions made about her and if a young women who is attractive dresses in ways the clucking hens don’t like and the DB men lust after, they really can be pigeonholed, and I would explain that without putting my own judgement on it. And yes, I am not claiming sainthood here, there are times when I find myself looking at how someone is dressed and saying “you have to be kidding”, but I also try with anyone to make decisions about them by who they are, not how they dress. One of my favorite people in this world is Dolly Parton who has a tendency to dress over the top, and she apparently is one of the nicest, most decent people and from what I know of her doesn’t seem to have a mean bone in her body:).