<p>College education is a privilege, it is not a right. M3 is not obligated in supporting her daughter through college. The daughter is not entitled to a college education. She has been very disrespectful to her parents, and in my opinion, does not deserve to have her college education paid for. She is an adult, get a job, and start supporting herself. I have to disagree that M3 should continue to pay for her daughter´s education.</p>
<p>I guess what I disagree with is that last summer, they said they would pay for tuition and expenses if she lived at home but not pay if she lived outside the home. They were willing to pay for college and I don’t think that willingness should change due to living outside the home itself. Making the D pay for tuition, room, and board because she lives in an apartment should not be the determining factor vs. had she lived at home. She was practically forced to live at home as she can’t afford school any other way. </p>
<p>The objective is to get her out on her own. If school is not an option or she doesn’t meet school expectations, she should support herself. If they determine that school is going to continue, I don’t know why the funding for that would change just cause she lives outside the home. I am for pulling funding if she doesn’t earn the credits but she really did earn the credits. The mom said she got B’s when she could have had A’s but that is not the worst thing. </p>
<p>Her behavior and disrespect are a major issue here. She needs to be out of the home and dealing with life independently. If she continues with school, I would not pull funding for it, if she meets certain expectations that are outlined and in writing. Otherwise, it is a set up to fail and need to move home. It would be hard to afford school and living expenses herself while a student. But if she doesn’t go to school, which is something they should seriously consider as she does not seem that into school for the right reasons, she should surely pay her living expenses (my own kids have to do that and it is not a punishment whatsoever but what adults should do who are not in school).</p>
<p>IMO, when you say “if you meet a certain GPA criteria, then we would continue to fund your education,” it implies that the daughter is entitled to a college education as long as she meets a certain GPA criteria. No, she gets her education paid for if her parents want to pay for it. Her parents are not obligated in paying for her education even if she was pulling straights As, if she tells them to F themselves. </p>
<p>Kids in the US get free education up to high school, after that it is a privilege. Parents are obligated to support their kids until they are 18, after that it´s at the grace of their parents.</p>
<p>I didn’t say the D was entitled to an education or that it is a right. It is a privilege. As a parent, I feel it is my responsibility to pay for it as I want my kids to have an education. </p>
<p>The disrespect is an issue that also needs to be dealt with. That should not be tolerated. I am not sure that needs to be tied to money. Right now, I think getting the D out of the home living on her own is the goal. If in school, parents can pay if they wish and D meets whatever criteria they set up for that. If on her own and not in school, D needs to support herself. The thing is, if this kid stays in the home, the parents are going to pay her way, that seems evident to me. So, if that is the case, it makes sense to keep paying for school, but get her out of the home. Setting her up to attend school outside the home with no funds to do it could be a set up for failure. </p>
<p>The disrespect may improve if limits are set and the D is not in their face daily. She’ll be living her own life. The parents will not know every little thing that currently causes conflicts (papers turned in late, out late at night, boyfriend visiting prior to finals, etc.). I think they need to give this set up a try and hope it helps to improve things.</p>
<p>If you really think the parents should not fund tuition, room and board if she earns the credits, then they shouldn’t when she is in the home as well, but that is what they are doing and were going to do if she stays home. I don’t think the funding issue should change just because she has an apartment. That was the difference last summer (fund if at home, not fund if live outside the home) and I think that the decision whether to fund education should not change depending on where the girl lives. That’s what I am saying. If they cut funding for school/room/board if she lives outside the home, she won’t be able to attend school and if they are OK with that, fine. But I would not want to see that create a situation where she has to go home in order to attend school. Perhaps she should not even be in school at all, in which case, she should pay her own way. I can’t tell if this girl wants to be in college. However, the thread began with her not finishing up her assignments but she truly did do them and got credit and decent grades and so I’m not sure that is the big issue or not right now. I think the issue is the girl’s behavior and a need to grow up and be on her own and live away from her parents. It’s time for her to do that and to be forced to deal with things on her own. It’s also time to dissipate the terrible daily conflicts going on in the home and I think if D is on her own, that will help.</p>
<p>Paying or not paying for my daughters education has been a topic of discussion in our home for a long time now. We want her to complete her education so she is able to get a job in her career, however by attending school the way she has, (little work as possible, preference to going out more than studying, blowing off school and needing a giant push to get through) leaves us feeling that she will be one of those college grads that has a degree and little more. She will need to pass board exams for competency and that will be a hurdle considering most of her texts have barely been read. I am just not sure if her degree (if she earns one) will have the value that a degree should have, which is the prospect of getting a job. Obviously with the current economy I am aware that jobs are not as easily attainable as in years gone by, but we just saw this kid literally blow off her responsibilties and still get grades that are considered respectable. It was not a favor to her and on some level it could have have the best wake up call had she received failing grades or incompletes or something that signified that she screwed up. My husband and I are still in utter shock that her professors actually awarded grades to her with what she turned in. This was not a good thing. </p>
<p>Soosievt… The problem with continuing to pay is that the real world does not work that way. If our daughter spoke to anyone the way she speaks to us, she would be homeless without a job. The cost of the education is not the issue, it is the treatment she gives us the minute that check is written. She always knows how to treat us prior to the disbursal of funds, and as soon as she is covered yet another semester, she is back to being abusive and drama filled. When she tells us that we don’t need this or that because we are old (we are not old and we are both in good shape) or why would we buy something for ourselves when she needs more. My husband and I are shocked to hear this physically beautiful young adult talk this way. The real world would not accept this and again she would be out of a job.
We did not want her living on her own when she got back from her year away at school. At that point we did not think being away was the best situation for a depressed kid. She was later given the option to return to her school and she turned that down. This past summer she was so nasty that we were not paying expences if she moved out just for her to party it up while her idiot parents paid her way to do it.</p>
<p>At this point we would have happily paid all expenses if we had a kind loving daughter who appreciated the gift of the education we were making possible for her. She does not appreciate any of it, and to pay for her living expenses is allowing her to walk over us again and again. I just can’t imagine paying those monthly bills for an apartment, food etc… knowing she has not had the decency to say hello to me in the morning and to embarass me in front of family, friends and strangers. There would be nothing more I would rather do than pay but all the money in the world will not make her education worth anything, and instead she will continue to believe that she could get away with treating us this way and we will keep paying her way through life. It just can’t work that way. I am still upset that her next semester is paid for (refund would be disbursed to her).</p>
<p>Education has been such a high priority in our home and what we realized is that she figured out a way to just do the bare minimum and still get through. We can’t keep paying the way for a kid who makes a mockery out of school, and treats us so poorly. The real world will be very harsh to her if we keep doing this.</p>
<p>Just adding my best wishes and encouragement to the other voices here, momma-three. I know from reading some of your past threads that you’re a caring and sensitive person, and I’m so sorry that you’re embroiled in this situation. I’m not a parent who has dealt with a situation as serious as yours (though I’ve spent plenty of mornings crying in the shower over one, or all, of my kids), nor am I a mental health professional. Because of your daughter’s extreme negative behavior, is it possible that an intervention professional might help? Even when people are obviously in the grip of a serious drug or alcohol addiction, they must be faced with external consequences in order to accept that they need help and must change. Maybe I’ve just watched too much “Intervention” on TV - and forgive me if I’ve missed whether or not you’ve tried or considered this. I’d be interested to know what jym626 and some of the other professionals on this thread think about intervention in general, and whether it can be helpful to change behaviors even when the person is not an addict.</p>
<p>Hi frazzled,
I am not an expert on substance abuse/addictive disorders, but I have worked with patients with SA issues and have helped some patients get connected with folks who do interventions. I do think it would be possible to do an intervention of sorts in this case, as there are parallels to addictive behaviors going on, and interventions can be ued for a vriety of crisi management issues. But, before an intervention can be done, a plan has to be clearly in place, with all family members on board and comfortable with the plan. It sounded like perhaps momma-three and her husband were not competely on the same page yet, although her sons are. If they do an intervention, doing it while all 3 sons are home would be great, but again, it takes time to put those in place, an action plan has to be set, and usually the intervention involves the choice of going into (usually inpatient, partial hospitalization or intensive outpatient) treatment or going out the door. Not sure if they are able to get the intensive treatment option available, unless tey are willing to fund it privately (insurance may not cover it, or may cover onaly a limited number of days). That said, an intervention is exentially what they are doing, by being clear that she must make certain changes or she is no longer welcome in the home.</p>
<p>momma-three, thanks for explaining your position. If you wish to tie paying for college to her behavior, that is your prerogative. You will have to set clear limits and expectations that you outline (in writing would be a good idea) of what you will do or not do for her and what she needs to do in order for you to fund her education. You may wish to get a therapist involved in a meeting with your D and you and your husband. EVerything should be laid out to her very clearly. Then the decisions and choices are in her hands within the parameters that you set forth. </p>
<p>The one part I am not that clear on myself is the level you wish to see her at in school because if she were not living at home, you would not know the level of her efforts with school beyond the grades received. I believe your D achieves at least B’s, right? If you have a specific level of criteria she must meet, it would have to be defined. Most parents of college students, when it comes to academic achievement in college, might go by the grades received. (this is all separate from the behaviors and treatment of you that you expect) So, be clear on what standard she must meet on the academic front (and of course in her treatment of you front too) in order for you to financially support her going to college.</p>
<p>^^^^^^^soozievt, the thread is so long that I may have forgotten the details, but didn’t the daughter decide at the last moment to chunk everything and not finish? Didn’t she in fact turn everything in late as a result of huge parental reaction/pressure? Had this event occurred outside the home, m3 and her DH would not have known about it, therefore would not have intervened, and subsequently the entire semester would have been blown, with no “respectable” grades. Seems to me there has to be internal motivation to start and finish the task of education in order for it to succeed in an independent, off-campus scenario.</p>
<p>The thing is, it is difficult to ascertain if the parents’ intervention is why the D turned in her assignments and finished out the semester or if she was going to turn the stuff in late herself. The parents are privy to all this stuff as she lives at home. All along she has been passing school, even though it sounds like she is far from a serious or responsible student. She did well in her summer courses I believe. So, I can’t really say if her grades are due to their intervention or not as she has been doing OK in school with grades all along even though she is not too into the schoolwork and I do question how much she really wants to be in school in the first place.</p>
<p>I’d love to hear why the D wants to be in school. Does she see it as something to do that parents pay for or does she have true goals she hopes to attain by going to school.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that momma-three’s three sons go to Cornell and MIT I think (correct me if I am wrong) and the D is nothing like the other three kids in terms of academics and achievement and motivation. It is hard for me to tell if she should even be in school or what the level of academic standards are that the parents expect of her. This is unrelated to her behavior toward the parents but just talking of the academic/school piece.</p>
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<p>Not walking in the OP’s shoes, so I can’t for sure say how I would react to all that’s happened, but it is REALLY hard for me to disagree with anything you’ve said above.</p>
<p>I do think this kid needs a strong kick in the pants and very clearly stated standards, expectations, and limits of what will be tolerated and what won’t be and what the parents will do if X and what the parents will do if Y. I think putting it in writing and also having a therapist mediate it would be helpful at this point. After that is outlined, it is up to the D the choices she makes but the expectations, limits, parameters, consequences, etc. will be clearly outlined.</p>
<p>One thing to keep in mind is that school will still be an option in six months, a year or even later. There is no reason to think that a semester off means never graduating. It may be worth it for her to have some real-life experience working a job and being on her own so that she can realize the value of an education and so that she can get her life together. Also, a semester off may give the parents time to process everything and decide what they are willing to contribute and under what circumstances. If they choose not to pay for her education, that doesn’t mean she can’t go to school. Plenty of people go to college without their parents’ help.</p>
<p>momma-three says spring semester is already paid for. It sounds like D will be returning to school.</p>
<p>Don’t some schools offer refunds if a student’s enrollment status changes at the beginning of the semester?</p>
<p>I’ve forgotten where M-3’s dau attends school, so am not sure about refund policies, whether the classes are paid for by credit hour or by semester, etc. The issue of whether or not to pay for school is a tough call, IMO. Its hard to tell if her dau sees school as a priority, as she apparently did quite well this past semester, but almost blew it in the final stretch, which has apparently, per M-3, been a pattern. Fortunately her parents were there to “rescue” her and salvage the semester, but I have mixed feelings about whether this is a good or not-so-good thing, in the long run. I think for last semester it was good and they were able to help her salvage the semester with quite good grades, but going forward, as part of turning over the responsibility and consequences of her behaviors back to her, perhaps they should let her know that they will no longer be in that role, and that if she chooses to throw in the towel, she will live with the consequences. No one likes to throw away money and semesters are not cheap, but in the long run maybe the “cost” will be higher if her dau does not learn to take responsibility for these behaviors. The more the dau thinks her parents will rescue her and/or clean up her messes, the less likely she is to change her behaviors.</p>
<p>I don’t know how the tuition refund works but momma-three is saying that she prepaid the next semester and that if a refund is requested, it will go to her D directly. Just reporting what momma-three stated earlier on this thread. I would have thought it would be returned to whomever sent it. In any case, the D is living at home currently and mail from the college could be intercepted by the parents. The money is theirs.</p>
<p>I agree that the D needs to be responsible for her behaviors, such as with school. So, if she doesn’t earn the credits that were paid for, she should have to pay the make up course fees herself for those credits. If she fails, she should have to pay for school herself. The tricky thing here is that she is passing and did turn in the work and so to pull the plug on funding seems against what really did happen. Had she blown it off and not turned in the work, different story. Now, it seems that although she did turn in the work and she did earn decent grades, her college funding may still be pulled. It is hard to ascertain if the parents were at the root of her turning in the work or if she would have anyway. They were privy to every step of her work in a way that parents ordinarily would not be if the kid was living at a dorm. Also, the parents say she doesn’t study enough, but apparently, if her final papers were not turned in late, she’d have earned A’s and so she must be doing something to be earning A’s. She just may not be the kind of student the parents would like to see but she can’t be blowing school off that much as she continues to do well in school it appears.</p>
<p>Thanks for the clarification, soozie. Perhaps the tuition payment can be deferred, held by the school and potentially applied to a future enrollment, shoud the daughter choose, or be unable to return this coming semester. The tough part is, even if a tuition refund check came to the house, it might be made out in the student’s name. </p>
<p>Agree that for this upcoming semester, if the student is returning to school, then agree the tuition payment, alreayd paid anyway, is covered and M3’s dau can attend. But, I would recommend against any more advance tuition payment. Payment decisions should be made after successful completion of the previous semester, with whatever reasonable criteria (grades/GPA, or whatever M-3 and her DH decide) they put in place and are clear with NOW. Ie-- if M3 and DH expect this semester’s grades to be 3.0 or better in order to fund next semester,then that needs to be clear, in writing, now. If DD choses to follow the rules- great. If not, the choice is hers and she understands the consequences in advance.</p>
<p>^^I agree with all that. </p>
<p>I do think their expectations should be clearly outlined and in writing as to what D needs to do in order for parents to do X for her and what they will do if she doesn’t do those things. </p>
<p>I just am not clear the academic expectations these parents have for their kid as it doesn’t seem to be measured by GPA itself.</p>
<p>Whatever the OP and her husband require, it should be in writing. If the dd chooses to skip classes, that is her choice (IMO). THe OP and her DH have to give the responsibility back to their dau to own. </p>
<p>Can you clarify, soozsie? Are you saying that M-3 may be including things like attendance at therapy etc as part of the requirement to continue to pay for school? </p>
<p>If they have a family therapist, these contracts can be worked out there. That would be my suggestion.</p>