<p>Perhaps these mornings it would help you stay sane if you took the newspaper to Starbucks for an hour or so until you know that your daughter is gone. If she is testing you, your not being present when she starts her day will take away any “I know more than Mom.” satisfaction if that is what she is looking for. She will be moving out soon. </p>
<p>I feel for you and agree with the other posters who think it is time for her to be forced to take responsibility for her life.</p>
<p>If my son <em>ever</em> treated me like your daughter is treating you, I would not be talking about how much tuition or room or board I would be paying. If our son even gave us a fishy disrespectful look, he was called on the carpet for it from his earliest years. We treat him with love and respect and generosity, but he has to reciprocate. End of sentiment.</p>
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<p>I was writing as Mom2M was posting. Great minds… ;)</p>
<p>M-3
You mentioned on Jan 2 after her blow up and name-calling that you had asked her to stay temporarily with a friend until she can make permanent arrangements. When is she expected to be relocating to the friends? Is there a true deadline for her to be out? If not, she will probably just hear this as an empty threat and will ignore it. I agree that her finding a new job in a day is impressive (even if it is for purely selfish reasons), and if you are not comfortable saying you are proud of her, you can say you are glad she has a job as that will help her finance her new living arrangements. Stick with your plan, and ignore (as hard as it is) her behaviors. She has a history of self-sabotaging. Sleeping in today is just part of that behavior. I like to say,“if you have an eating disorder, it doesn’t matter what food is on your plate.” Make sense? Yes, you have a right to feel angry and frustrated with her choices. But let that fuel your persistence to not let it infect the rest of the family, or your right to a chaos-free life. You can be there to support her good choices, not her bad ones.</p>
<p>Oh, and I agree-- if she sleeps in, don’t rescue her by waking her up. Not your job. As hard as that is-- its not your job to keep cleaning up her messes. She may likely see missing this class as no big deal anyway. She’ll say they dont cover much in the first class and she’ll find out from a friend what they addressed. You cant win on that one. Dont try.</p>
<p>One big advantage of having her out of the house is that you will not have to see or hear some of these behaviors on a daily basis. Better for her and much better for you too!</p>
<p>Oh, momma3, she is the sly one. She absolutely knows which buttons to push. She does something positive, but stirs things up by sleeping in. She may have ADD, but she has learned how to rule the roost. Normally, I would also agree that making a reinforcing statement about the job would be in order, but I suspect she will say something in response to get you fired up about the sleeping in.</p>
<p>Either get out of the house as much as possible or just buy some duct tape to keep from getting into any discussions with her.</p>
<p>oops- I missed oldfort’s and soozies posts above. Agree that the focus need to be on sticking to the plan to have her in an alternative living situation. While ideally it would be great to have a family therapy appointment to hash out the details, I will bet my bottom dollar she will not attend, with whatever the excuse du jour is (probably that she has class or has to work, or something). If you are open to including her in the decision of how much she gets or when she is shown the door (there are pros and cons to that), let her know when/where you plan to be working on that (either at the therapists office or at your kitchen table) and when the numbers/dates will be final. And stick to it. If she chooses to participate, fine. If not, you put your plan into place on the aforewarned deadline. Is your husband on board with you?</p>
<p>I’m also confused because m3 said she told her D that she must stay temporarily with a friend until arrangements can be made for her to get her own apartment, etc. Did you back down on that? Is there a timeline in place? Will you be hashing out a written agreement of terms of her moving out, expenses, expectations, etc.?</p>
<p>I hope your D was able to wake up to an empty house. If no one makes a scene she loses some of her power to hurt you.</p>
<p>While this may be splitting hairs a bit, I wouldn’t call it an “agreement” since its doubtful she wants to agree to any of it. She can be invited to participate in your decision-making about your rules/policies for your home, and if she chooses to participate you will take her comments into consideration, but right now the issue isn’t about what agreements allow her to stay in your home or have you fund her education. You are letting her know what your policies are, and she can choose to accept-- or not. No one asked us to participate in making the rules about driving, speeding, parking, etc. The policy-makers established them, and if we want the PRIVILEGE of having a drivers license and driving on the road, we follow the rules. Same should hold true for your family rules. She doesnt get to make the rules. She has to follow them, even if she disagrees with them. Two choices-- take it or leave it.</p>
<p>jym626 makes a good point…she doesn´t need to agree, she just needs to follow.</p>
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<p>This…</p>
<p>Agree that my use of the word “agreement” wasn’t a good choice. It is more of a contract with the parameters laid out…rules, consequences, etc. </p>
<p>Aside from that, one thing I think m3 needs to keep in mind is that she has three over achieving sons. D is not like them at all. I believe in setting high standards but I think the academic standards for this D need to be lowered some in terms of expectations. It seems she attains respectable grades (a year ago, mom said she achieved high honors). She is not a motivated student, nor a true achiever. She wants to get a degree and if she manages to do so, that can be the goal there, even if she doesn’t achieve up to the level hoped. There needs to be behavioral expectations as far as how she treats the parents, and so forth. But the academic piece sounds like it is going OK, even if not great, and she somehow manages to have a decent record, even if not as hoped. She may have three semesters left, right? The goal should be for her to develop independence by living on her own and to get through school. There is too much drama at home and she needs to be out of it. Things like missing classes or turning work in late are minor in the scheme of things if she is passing with a decent GPA. The expectations on that end just may need to be lowered given the parents are used to such high achieving sons which their D just may never be. The goal here is independence and if she can earn a degree and find work, it is enough. If she is out of the home, the parents won’t know of every irresponsible choice she makes. It will be easier on them, I think. It may be easier on her too as she will have to be responsible to herself.</p>
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<p>I think this is not exactly correct. The truth is that she seems to be an achiever in terms of work, in terms of getting what she wants out of life.</p>
<p>We have a certain slant on this board towards college, which makes complete sense! But, just because somebody does not love school does not mean they are not a “true achiever.” Some of the highest achieving people in the world were not great “students,” academically speaking. Just to add some perspective.</p>
<p>This is a girl who always has a job and who does more than passably well in school, which she doesn’t even care that much about. I would not at all be suprised to see her really excell in life once she gets into the work force.</p>
<p>Just wanted to add a different perspective. YMMV</p>
<p>Actually, I agree with you, poetgrl, and likely didn’t articulate things all that well. I meant she is not the kind of achiever that m-3’s sons are. The parents may wish to see As and a kid who goes to class and approaches school like the sons have done. This daughter is different. Indeed, she has achieved in the sense that she has respectable grades and she even holds a job! And so in the scheme of things, she is not doing so poorly. It just may seem that way to the parents as she is very different than the sons and may not be meeting their standards in an academic sense (not addressing the disrespectful behaviors at the moment). She may not be a great student in the traditional sense but she seems like she may get a degree and she wants to get a degree and that should be enough. She may very well have a career in her chosen field. Her path may not be as expected and not measure up to the sons but it is not so terrible and in fact, she may be quite successful. What I was trying to say is that she may not approach school in the ways the parents would like to see or as the three sons did, but may achieve just fine in order to graduate and get a job. That really should be enough. It may mean the parents accept the kind of student she is as long as she gets decent grades and graduates and becomes independent.</p>
<p>I’m suggesting to accept the D for who she is and not what she isn’t. Of course, I would not tolerate disrespect or entitlement attitudes. But I would accept her for who she is when it comes to the kind of student and so on.</p>
<p>I think it’s pretty clear that Momma-three wants the D to make the right choices in life, and Momma-three knows what the right choices are.</p>
<p>Right choices are to not sleep through class, to spend time studying, to focus on classes, to go to prestigious universities, to get a degree, professional licenses, etc. Date the right boyfriend, not spend time with boyfriend is homework is pressing, etc, etc, etc.</p>
<p>Problem is D doesn’t fit this mold. That pathway might be the best, but not the one for her. So she rebels. She does everything that Momma doesn’t want her to do because she is tired being expected to conform.</p>
<p>Not a lot different than a square peg being pushed into a round hole.</p>
<p>Yes, but one must prepare the child for the path, not change the path for the child in terms of REAL WORLD. And this child is manipulative, and hurls insults and four letter words at the drop of a hat. This is a little more than acting out behavior,</p>
<p>The parents definitely need to deal with the disrespectful behaviors. That is a big problem here for sure. </p>
<p>On the academic piece, I am not so sure they should worry so much if the D’s GPA can’t compete with the GPAs of kids coming out of more prestigious colleges (post 361). The D will have to live with the consequences for her academic record when it comes to job hunting. (though frankly, I, nor my kids, have ever had to present GPA in job hunts, but I guess some do). I think the educational goal here is that the D gets her degree and becomes independent. How good her grades are and whether she skips any classes are not things the parents can control and she may never be at the standard they’d like to see in that regard. If she maintains decent grades and graduates, that may have to be enough. This is separate from the disrespectful behavior issue, which is definitely a concern.</p>
<p>Our household has been struggling with some of the issues M-3 has been experiencing. I don’t want to go too much into the details as it is a bit earlier in the process in our particular case. </p>
<p>I did want to say that my husband and I have been struggling with regard to the monetary aspects in what is appropriate. We’ve come up with the solution of paying for her tuition, room/board, and flights to and from college. We’ve told her she gets three years of this in order to obtain her bachelors but after that she’s on her own financially.</p>
<p>We were previously giving her a monthly cash allowance but due to a number of factors, we’ve decided to stop providing this. We will buy her physcial things, such as necessary clothing (ie gloves, boots), toiletries etc when she is home as gifts. These will be given because we want to, not because we feel compelled and they come with no strings attached. She spends her cash on a lifestyle that is harmful and unethical from our perspective so we simply won’t support that by giving her cash.</p>
<p>We have also advised our daughter that she will need to find a job this summer and a place to stay as we can not have her creating chaos in the house for 3 months. </p>
<p>It is so very hard when you get some glimmer of a pleasant, happy child but it always comes with a high price to pay. As my daughter is quick to remind me, she’s 18 and can do what she wants. I just have to keep reminding myself that she can and it isn’t my job to pick up the pieces of the messes she makes nor do we need to tolerate the drama she creates in her life. It is her life. As sad as it makes me to mourne the loss of the life I wish for her, I realise I can’t let her life overshadow the lives of everyone else in the house.</p>
<p>I know a its a bit of a ramble but I feel for you M-3, I really do.</p>
<p>I just want to throw in my mutual support here for what you are going through.</p>
<p>I’m somewhat in your same shoes, in that my younger son is behaving very similarly to your daughter, but he’s only an underclassman in high school. But yes, we are having battles over school performance, respecting boundaries, disrespect, etc. All in the context of having an overachieving brother who just left for college.</p>
<p>Let me relate some aspects of what’s going on here. My younger S attends a pretty rigorous private school of which I told him it is a privilege to attend. He has certain goals for college and college athletics, which he has told me, and which I have told him that he needs to obtain a certain GPA and do certain things in his sport to make this all happen. He’s always been strong-willed, and we have had battles over school performance in the past, but he’s mostly been able to do what he needs to, but only after a lot of fighting.</p>
<p>Last year, although we had some horrible battles, he was able to achieve what I think colleges would expect from him, given his goals. </p>
<p>This year, however, his schoolwork is way off. He’s not handing in homework, not studying for tests and finals, and after first quarter most of his teachers wrote me notes telling me he is underachieving. </p>
<p>I then set certain limits on participation in his sport, tying it to getting homework done, etc. But then one time, he was so angry that I wouldn’t take him after he failed to complete homework, that he simply left the house and didn’t return until very, very late. It was very scary. He came home after we threatened not to allow him to do his sport at all, and he came into the house with lots of 4 letter words. </p>
<p>So I know that people say that you need to be consistent, set limits, abide by them and then the kid will learn to do as you ask. But I think my kid just keeps upping the ante. It is very hard to deal with this, and very scary. </p>
<p>We had him neuropsych tested, and it turns out he does have a mild ADD. He has agreed to take some medication. Interestingly, he says that when he is on the meds, it helps him feel motivated to do the work. </p>
<p>I want to echo what others say about expectations. I know that my son is capable of doing more in terms of his raw talent. But he is not motivated in this particular area to do what he needs to do. Right now, I know I need to lower my expectations for him; I don’t think I’m giving up, just that I need to have the right expectations with respect to school work for him at this time. I just don’t know how low should I go and it be reasonable; we are going for some counseling to find this out.</p>
<p>People always say that as long as they see their kid doing their best, it doesn’t matter what grade they bring home, as long as I know they are working hard and trying. That makes sense to me. Some kids truly are not as bright as others, so I do understand when a kid works hard and doesn’t bring home the stellar grade. </p>
<p>But just as some kids are naturally ‘bright’, some kids are naturally ‘motivated’, even with the kind of work that they just don’t like. If we can compensate for those kids who are not as naturally gifted as others with respect to raw IQ, why can’t we recognize that some kids aren’t gifted with respect to motivation?</p>
<p>It’s not that this kid never does work, or never studies, etc. One thing he and I agree on is that if his own personal work was part of an overall ‘team’ grade, he’d definitely do better. So he’s the kind of person who performs very well in a team or social setting. When he studies with his GF, he’s the one whose making up the questions to quiz her, etc.</p>
<p>So I also disagree that you don’t change the path for the child. The path my kid needs to be on to perform his best, and ultimately the kind of career he needs to have, will have to involve lots of team stuff. Of course, I do recognize that he will have to work by himself and do all that tedious stuff at times by himself, but who actually finds the career/path in life that suits his or her strengths 100% of the time. He’ll constantly struggle in this area, and it’s going to be up to him to figure out how to do that. But he’s just learning that this is his weakness, and at 16 how much can I expect him to figure out how to overcome his weakness?</p>
<p>And don’t underestimate the issue of having high-achieving sibs. One thing I’ve found out by asking around is that this can be a big issue, even for someone who is naturally bright.</p>
<p>The hardest thing for me right now is adjusting to the lower expectations with respect to grades. I know it’s going to get worse before it gets better in terms of school performance. He’s already shown me that.</p>
<p>But I also know that it’s been a lot better in the house. He’s been kinder, more respectful, etc. </p>
<p>Sometimes, it’s easier for them to get mad at us than get mad at themselves, and our harping on them allows them to get mad at us. Sometimes, I think his bad school performance is a way of him trying to punish me, when he doesn’t realize that it’s really punishing himself. </p>
<p>I’m trying really, really hard to let him do what he can do, and hoping that once he isn’t trying to get at me with low grades, he’ll realize he’s sabotaging himself, and so he’ll take ownership more.</p>
<p>But it’s very, very hard. I’m not always succeeding at this. I’m hypervigilant all the time, waiting for the next shoe to drop. I see 1 step forward and then 3 or 4 steps back. </p>
<p>So I understand a lot what you are going through.</p>