Daughter just threw in the towel

Parent Cafe
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<p>^caymen…That is exactly right. There comes a point if an adult aged child (young maturity level) is creating such tormoil and is so disrespectful that we just can’t keep giving in to everything they demand. </p>

<p>I have read all of the above and you are missing the part where I am saying the school she attends now is far different than where she was attending. I still find it hard to believe that my daughter could get a degree and achieve it with high honors. That is why they say there is a school for everyone but put that aside this school is by far way too easy, and I would go as far as saying she had a better education at her CC last year than she has had here. How could a student get these grades and not read textbooks or complete written work in a thoughful and college level way? I have lost so much respect for certain schools because now I see how vastly different these schools really are…no I did not expect Cornell or MIT work at this school but at times I am not sure it is on the level of a good highschool. Neither my husband or myself are the products of fine schools so we assumed this would be a school like he and I attended…its not. The other shocking thing is that with a GPA like hers she is actually a better candicate for professional school than one of my sons. This is just amazing to me that schools could be so very different but that GPA is what determines entrance to med school, law school, and the like. All my daughter would need to do is pull off a high score on the above type of exams and she would actually gain admission. She has a strong desire to work even if the jobs are low paying and has been this way since she was young but that does not mean the same thing as being educated. When discussions arise in the home regarding very simple ideas relating to current issues, ideas, or common knowledge type of stuff my daughter will walk away. She has no interests in learning anything new or gaining the type of knowledge that will make her a more interesting person. Her boyfriend (in front of us) had said that he is needing more intellectual stimulation. I can’t stand him for saying that to us, but I must admit that I understand what he meant. </p>

<p>I will say that I give her credit for always having a job and having that desire to make money in her…she will probably go far with that. Somewhere on another thread I mentioned that I thought my daughter would one day be self employed and probably be very successful. However, success in my eyes must include kindness and appreciativeness. If my daughter ends up being a boss I would feel bad for those in her path. She does not say I am sorry, does not have geniune feelings for people, and could end a relationship with just about anyone and never look back. If that is what success is than that thinking is trouble. I would much rather see a nice, kind and loving daughter who is happy in her relationships and career, and has a nice circle of friends. There is a big difference between stepping over everyone in your path to “make it” and embrassing the people along the way who have helped and watched the process. I don’t expect too much from her I expect her to be a nice person to us and others and to read her darn textbooks and do the work assigned. She can’t get by on being beautiful…that does not last a lifetime.</p>

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<p>As I have mentioned before - I was a lot like this young woman at one time in my life. No cursing at my mom, but defiant and uncontrollable. Because of my behavior, my parents insisted that I attend a local university and commute instead of paying for the private school where I had been accepted. That didn’t work. Second year, they had me move on campus, probably because I had made their life hell by living with them. After sophomore year I dropped out and got a job where my father worked without his knowing. I don’t think he was ever more angry. </p>

<p>The job worked out fine. I did very well and one day when I showed my supervisor how we could revamp something in our production planning office that would save considerable man hours he told me if I wanted to have a job where I was expected or allowed to think then I should go back and get my degree. That really hit me. I returned to college not to long after that, finished undergrad and grad school. </p>

<p>Now many years later, who do you think is caring for both parents. Who does their banking, their appointments with docs, their ordering of medical supplies, taxes, etc.? It is not my brother who never caused them any trouble. Nope it’s me. One day when I had spend all day with my dad going from one appointment to another (medical and banking) I asked if he had ever been told back in 1970 his life would be in my hands what would he have thought. He just shook his head and laughed. </p>

<p>There is hope.</p>

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<p>m-3, in the scheme of things, does it really matter if your D isn’t into intellectual matters and doesn’t love to learn for the sake of learning and just does whatever work at school she needs to do to get by? It sounds like she loves to work at jobs. Let her get a degree if she manages to do it and enter the work force. I don’t think she will ever be the kind of learner you are hoping for and you might have to accept she is different in this way. The fact that she likes working is good and the fact that she manages to pass her courses with decent grades is also good. It just may not be up to your ideals or standards but it truly is not the worst thing. The aim is for her to become an independent adult and to be able to secure work to support herself once she graduates. Keep the expectations in that area to that and you might become less frustrated. </p>

<p>The behaviors with you guys and her attitudes and language are very challenging and require strong limits. But again, I think these will lessen as she is lives outside the home and won’t come up on a daily basis and also she will mature over time.</p>

<p>On the “appreciative” front, every time she talks disrespectfully or acts entitled, set a limit of “if you choose to talk to us or act like that toward us, we won’t be doing X for you. You have a choice.”</p>

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<p>worknprogress2,Great post. Your parents are lucky! There is always hope that things will turn around for OP’s family.</p>

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<p>worknprogress2…I really hate to admit this but if my daughter is the same person she is right now I will beg to be put in a nursing home. I would never want her to be a caretaker for me or my husband in any capacity.</p>

<p>My brother was a tough cookie back in the day…drugs, jail, and alot of problems. He is the most wonderful son that any parent could dream of having. Great husband and father as well. He never completed college and became a huge success opening many business’. My daughter has that same drive for money and work. The difference is that my brother was nice to people even at his worst. I always think of him when I am at my wits end with my daughter. My brother often says she reminds him of himself.</p>

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<p>A good friend of mine and her husband are both physicians. Both went to an ivy league college (they met in undergrad) and went to an ivy league med school (not that that matters, but just providing background). They have 2 kids who are now in their late 20’s. Both are single. The daughter got maybe got an associates degree (can’t recall), has multiple tatoos and piercings, and works in an art or photo store. The son got a 4 yr degree from a tier 2 or 3 school and has severe obsessive-compulsive disorder. He lives independently and has a job of some kind, I think possibly working in the husband’s family business. While the kids are theoretically “independent”, she and her husband continue to subsidize their kids’ living expenses. The daughter was a difficult, rebellious child/young adult, and while she has calmed down, my friend describes her as “odd” and “weird”. She says her dau would be “on skid row” if they didnt help her financially. </p>

<p>While I am not opining one way or the other as to whether my friend or her husband should continue to be helping their kids financially, my point is that it is not always easy to get the kids off the family payroll for a variety of reasons. While these “kids” should be expected to live on their own earnings, for a variety of reasons, that apparently is not reasonable right now, nor apparently anytime in the near future. The daughter is no longer disrespectful, but her relationship with her parents is distant, which is sad. I feel badly for my friend, but my point is, even though her dau has been able to maintain stable employment, it probably is not much more than minimum wage really isnt enough to live on. So, even if the kids are good workers, they may not be good wage-earners.</p>

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<p>m-3…I hope the story of your own brother helps to keep hope alive for you for your D. She is still quite young and immature. It won’t make things less frustrating for you now but should help to know that young people can be successful later in life who went through rough times as young adults.</p>

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<p>Momma3 - trust me, my mom and dad would have said the same thing!</p>

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<p>Sometimes it is scary how I feel that M-3s daughter is mine just 4 or 5 years down the road. Is there anyway to stop this? Is there anyway to get back the child that was there and still is somewhere deep inside?</p>

<p>So I have a beautiful 15 year old–drop dead gorgeous–who is becoming increasingly anti-intellectual, superficial, self-centered, materialistic, arrogant and rude (particularly to her parents and brother), but–unlike M-3’s daughter she is still very hardworking with respect to her HS courses but perhaps because they are very demanding in order to be part of the super cool crowd. She wants to go to HYP or Stanford…not because of the intellectual quality but because that is the gold ring in our area. She wants the name brand to flaunt not the intellectual rigor. She bemoans that other girls get jewelry from Tiffany’s for xmas while she got expensive, but useful, coat and boots. </p>

<p>Is she at all concerned about the cost to us of a name-brand education? Nope …but she thinks we should not complain because of her good grades and so far, excellent behaviour outside of the home. What is driving the growth of this beautiful on the outside, corrupted girl inside? Again, like M-3 our son is kind, thoughtful, intellectually interesting and doing well at a top 20 Uni. How can the same parents produce such different kids?</p>

<p>So I wonder…how much is my daughter and M-3’s daughter and their behavior and outcome of being convinced she will never live up to her parents’ expectations or her own expectations. Is she anti-intellectual because she perceives us as intellectual intimidators? Is she flaunting her arrogant, selfish self absorbed attitudes in our faces because we seem so holier-than-thou, goody-goodies that she can never equal? Does she do well in school to show she isn’t dumb, and yet is secretly convinced she is stupid so avoids any conversations about politics, philosophy, etc. Perhaps M-3 daugher had this hidden self-confidence crisis for years and it manifests itself in this horrible, ugly and destructive behavior toward her family and became so ingrained it now affects others in her life–boyfriend, friends, etc. Is it too late to address this potential festering problem? I don’t know but I had a struck by lightning moment recently when I realized that D and I have absolutely GREAT interaction when we watch old episodes of LOST together (netflix)…we discuss the plot twists, laugh and say who we want to die next, etc…and then when her dad asked to be part of it she said…you will hate it …it is dumb and weird and you will say it is typical american garbage (my H is foreign) and it struck me that she is soooo pleased that phD economist mom who only listens to classical music and volunteers and works full time and seems in the stratosphere far from her…is actually enjoying something shallow and visceral that she also enjoys. She feels my equal; she feels unjudged; she is not threatened; she is nice to be with.</p>

<p>M-3…is there anytime that you see normal interaction from your D with your sons or husband or with you (not counting when she wants to get something from you?)? I don’t plan on dumbing down my life and start giving Tiffany’s earrings to my D but perhaps we need to be less dismissive of her opinions, her tastes, her values…perhaps she actually shares a lot with you but despises herself for not sharing all of your qualities so better to be the black sheep, the anti-intellectual, anti-success, practically the anti-christ of a highly intellectual household. Have you raved about how crappy her university is compared to anything attended by anyone else in the family? I probably would have and I am starting to see that it is a terrible burden to be the beautiful, smart (but not brilliant) daughter in a household of high achievers (academic) who despise dumb, shallow people and do not value good looks like much of the world. Outside of the home our daughters are treated as queens–good looking and doing fine in school–(interesting M-3’s daughter likes work…perhaps she feels admired at work)…but at home they feel inadequate, criticised, second-class… </p>

<p>NOT trying to justify bad behavior. Just trying to see where it comes from and to try and get at the root cause as well as stop the behavior. A good friend suggested family counseling when I confessed our problems and he was absolutely blown away that we have such conflict in what seems to be a perfect household. No one would believe it she is such an angel outside the home and, frankly, she wows people with her beauty and charm. If I could just convince H, I would already be calling to find one.</p>

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<p>^^^One difference is that your D is 15 and still in high school and lots of teens can be disrespectful (it isn’t pleasant, that’s for sure, and that is not an excuse but just a fact). But m-3’s D is 20 years old and I think she is still locked into teen behavior living at home and needs to be forced to grow up some by being more independent. Her behavior is of the disrespectful teen. And I think living at home under the parents’ wing still has her locked into the teen dynamics that some teens have with their parents.</p>

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<p>^^ I agree there is a big difference between almost 16 and 20 but .it is not a little bit of talking back but a complete rejection of our family’s values–respect for others, education, charity and simplicity. To us, her behavior is not something we think she will magically grow out of but is the beginning of a life-style choice. I think addressing these choices at 20 is more complex, but perahaps as you said, it is hopefully just inappropriate teen behavior in a young adult.</p>

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<p>Well, in general, I refrain from mentioning this, but I do work with adolescents, as a therapist, and I would really caution anyone from extrapolating into the twenties from the mid-teens, or deciding on “who” someone is going to be when they are in their thirties and forties from who they are before they turn 25.</p>

<p>So many things happen in our lives to change our directions, it is impossible to really get a grasp on these things at these ages. Hormones mellow out, and brain development finishes. The “wild child” becomes a mother or father. The “perfect angel” gets married to the alcoholic… The straight A student develops a mental illness or depression. The “failure” discovers a passion and becomes the most successful person you ever wanted to meet.</p>

<p>Honestly, I know it can be unbelievably overwhelming at this stage, as a parent, but even that pressure eases as they grow up and become responsible for themselves. </p>

<p>I’m thinking a nice walking trip in the lake district in Italy, or of biking in Tuscany, this summer with my husband. I think that sounds really fun.</p>

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<p>It seems to me that there are issues that are getting mixed in together. You are disappointed (crushed) by her disrespectful behavior and that is understandable. That is one issue. You also seem disappointed by her lack of intellectual curiosity and her disinterest in school. That is a separate issue. However, I think they are getting muddled together. You wrote (in the same post) something about wanting her to be respectful and in the same sentence wrote that you want her to read her textbooks and study (paraphrasing.) I think you need to let the academic stuff go. Who cares if she is intellectually curious? Plenty of decent, hard-working, salt-of-the-earth people, who are the backbone of society, are not. And plenty of people seem to be disinterested until they find the thing that turns them on and a lot of people are turned on by things that they don’t find in college. </p>

<p>I have four kids as well. Three of them are extremely bright, intellectually curious driven people – like your sons. The oldest, also very bright, graduated from a top public university where he did okay but didn’t display a whole lot of passion for learning and didn’t take as much advantage of what was available to him as he could have. For him, a college degree was a means to an end. Then he went into a field that he might have been able to enter without that degree. Fast forward to now; he loves his job and works for an excellent company with fantastic benefits. They love him. He’s stimulated by what he does. I know he wants his own future kids to go to college, but I don’t think he himself will every be seeking knowledge for knowledge’s sake, etc. And it’s fine. He is good at working. He will be a good husband and father some day, the kind who coaches his kids sport’s teams, etc. Now it’s true, we didn’t have all the drama that you are going through. I’m only addressing the part about not being a super-academic in a family of super-academic, intellectually-curious Ivy-League type overachieving kids. I think your feelings about her lack of intellectual curiosity may be a part of the problem. She’s not that kid. It may be that part of her acting out is tied to this and it is probable that it is not that simple. But I think you should try to separate out those two issues in your own head (and with a therapist) so that you can work on the behavioral stuff cleanly.</p>

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<p>fineartsmajormom…Everything you have said I have already examined both in and out of therapy. Believe me our sons success was theirs alone and we have very little to do with it so therefore we have not expected our daughter to be like her brothers. We have always respected the differences and before all of this trouble started we were proud of her accomplishments as a person. We knew she was not the student that her brothers were but she did exhibit from early on very good traits that could easily be tranferred to a successful life. It is her personality that gets in the way of the person she could be on both a personal level and academically. Most people would assume that because our other kids have attended good schools we have put this pressure on her…there is nothing less true and maybe that is the problem because we should have expected her to be the students her brothers were/are. I don’t know but whatever we did we must have done something wrong because a kid can’t be like this without the parents having something to do with it…but I really don’t think it was because we made her feel badly about herself or her abilties. She actually happens to have a very high IQ…higher than a couple of her brothers one who graduated MIT. It just proves that those numbers only mean you have the natural ability, it does not mean you will love learning or have a successful personal or professional life.</p>

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<p>Not true.</p>

<p>This is categorically false.</p>

<p>As a completely opposite example, take 4 kids and have them grow up in an incredibly abusive household and watch one of them make it out and become this amazing person. Happens all the time.</p>

<p>I am, lately, considering writing a book about the overemphasis our culture is putting on parenting, at this stage in our development. Parents are one factor. For all you know, she would be in jail if you hadn’t done such a GOOD job. Parents can only do so much. We expect too much of ourselves, take too much of the blame and :wink: too much of the credit, as well.</p>

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<p>The jury is still out on this one and will be for another twenty or so years, M-3. Let her live on her own for a while, and we will “see” what she becomes. She has not yet crossed the finish line. Nor have you, for that matter.</p>

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<p>I agree with mimk’s post in 413. </p>

<p>I think you need to separate out the academic issues and her behavior. Her behavior toward you is not acceptable. I hope that mellows out with maturity and living on her own and with strong limit setting.</p>

<p>The academic part, in my view, is not a big issue. She does all right, even if not as hoped or expected. It really should not matter if she is intellectually curious or cares about learning. That is who she is and you’ll have to accept it. In my view, if she earns a degree and gets a job and is happy with what she is doing, it’s enough. She can be a success even if she is not intellectually motivated.</p>

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<p>I cross posted with poetgrl and agree that you should not blame yourselves. Every kid is different even within the same family. I feel ya get the kids ya get. Some are more challenging than others and it can be luck of the draw.</p>

<p>I also agree that the jury is out for your D as she is only 20 and hasn’t become who she’ll be just yet.</p>

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<p>^Her nasty behavior is directly related to what we have permitted her to get away with. That is where we went wrong. I was too busy shielding her from herself that I forgot to look at the big picture in that she was treating us like she was treating others. Remember going back to my original thread when we took her home from her LAC. She had no friends by the time she returned home. She had managed to alienate everyone she had befriended at school. She was in such bad shape at that point that I focused only on the most important issue which at the time I really believed could have been just keeping her alive so that she could get professional help. The road has been long and yes we have gotton through the worst part because she is here and functions. I could not say that I would have predicted that back than. She was very fragile and her decisions were awful…trully awful. She gives a much better outside appearance now and most people would think we have the most charmed life with four great kids. However if she was only a fraction of that person on the outside we would consider ourselves lucky. I just want a nice daughter who does not make drama, scenes in front of neighbors, verbal abuse and some physical abuse to me. I do not believe a person acts this way because they live at home while attending college. Back in my day almost everyone I know commuted to college and this behavior did not exist.</p>

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<p>All I hear in what you just wrote is you, once again, taking responsibility for your daughter’s behavior.</p>

<p>She had a crisis and she fell apart. You did the “right” thing and you assisted her in putting herself back together, again. But now she needs to go back out in the world and face the consequences of her actions, one at a time, with the people she will “meet” out there.</p>

<p>I believe it is truly awful in your house, living with this young woman. However, she is able to hold down a job, and she has had a long term boyfriend (whether or not you choose him), and so she has some social skills. I would really, once again, simply recommend that you just let her have her own life, the good, the bad, the highs, the lows, and recognize that you have probably got a certain amount of PTSD from the previous crisis and your earlier life experiences, and try not to get so triggered.</p>

<p>Yoga, maybe.</p>

<p>Good luck to you and your family.</p>

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<p>^I disagree…I don’t believe I have PTSD. What makes you think that is a possibility because I never thought of it and the therapist has never suggested it. I am not that familiar so please fill me in.</p>