<p>I agree with jym. I’ve sensed a noticeable shift in momma-three’s thinking. I think after two years she is ready to make some real changes. If many posters have been repeating themselves and repeating each other maybe that helped her to hear what they were saying.</p>
<p>What bothers me the most now is that once her husband saw real progress being made he intervened and stopped it at least temporarily. Before now he was mostly silent, letting momma-three shoulder the burden. Then once he realized she is no longer willing to live in this situation, he took over the role and now things are continuing as they were. He wasn’t willing to help when momma-three was willing to take care of things, but he jumped in when he sensed that real changes were about to be made.</p>
<p>I see this with my in-laws. In the rare event that constructive actions are being taken to help a mentally ill sibling one of the parents jumps in and sabotages it. It is a little hard to recognize, but once an outsider sees the pattern it is very evident.</p>
<p>momma-3, I agree with others that if you don’t intend to pay for her education for her final year, she should be told that now, so she can figure out what to do if she wants to continue on and graduate. </p>
<p>I also believe you could have gotten the refund check and deposited it in your own account as the money was yours in the first place. Open the mail from the bursar’s office and sign the check over to yourselves into your own account. </p>
<p>I understand your point about college is not only about grades and it is about learning. I agree with that. I don’t really care what grades my kids get in college to be honest with ya (though they do get good grades). But I don’t see how you can set up a kind of “criteria” your D must meet on the academic front for you to be willing to pay tuition that is not concrete such as grades or earning credits. You can’t measure if she is serious about school or learning a lot. Where would you draw the line to her as the expectation she must meet academically? Further, if she were not living at home, you would not have any inkling how much she studies and you’d only have grades and credits to go by. In my opinion, your D may never be a serious student. If she earns the degree that will help her obtain a career, that should be criteria for tuition. She may do just fine even if she doesn’t meet your academic standards (remember you are used to high achieving sons). Somehow your D is getting good grades. She must be doing something right to get them? She is not a motivated learner, but she may still earn a degree. That may have to be enough in terms of her education, even if she doesn’t make the most of the opportunity. I don’t think a parent should pay if the student gets poor grades or loses credits, but that is not the case for your D. I think she is getting a consequence (your not funding tuition) because she is not serious enough about school or doesn’t learn as much as you would like her to do but she still is getting good grades and earning the credits. In my view, the objective should be having her out of the house and finishing school if that is what she says she wants to do and as long as she earns the credits with decent grades, you have given her this basic in life and then come graduation day, she is on her own. </p>
<p>It seems to me that you want to give her a consequence of not funding her education due to her not learning enough or seriously enough and also for her disrespectful attitudes (which I agree are very disrespectful). I think one way to take care of the disrespect is to have her out of the home on her own. Also, if you sit down with a therapist and D and outline a sort of “contract” of expectations and what you will or will not do for her based on her doing X, Y, or Z. I think it should be clearly laid out for her. </p>
<p>But in the meantime, the expectation should be that she lives on her own.</p>
<p>I think the husband is enabling the daughter. It might help for the parents to see a counselor so that they can find a way to work together on this. I feel for momma-three in this regard because she and hubby are not on the same page and things may not improve as husband may allow D to continue the current arrangement. A third party might also help husband to see the light (momma-three is starting to desire a change in the status quo but husband is not there). I do think that they need to lay it out to the D…a plan of what they will or will not do and what they expect from her, etc. D should not have to figure it out. It should be outlined very clearly to her. Of course, this is more difficult if m-3 and her spouse don’t agree among themselves and that is why a third party may help them to develop this plan and spell it out to the D.</p>
<p>CTTC…
momma-three is venting and looking for support. She started a thread on CC. If she wanted no comments, she would not post here. Or she could post on the “say it here” thread. By starting a thread or posting on CC about an issue, it invites comments. Momma-three says she is reading all the comments and suggestions and that it has helped her to think things through. And perhaps it may be helping another parent who reads this who is having similar difficulties with their own child.</p>
<p>I’m sorry. But, I think I’ve been misunderstood. </p>
<p>I’m not suggesting that you continue paying for school. </p>
<p>I’m simply suggesting that you notify your daughter that there will be no more tuition. </p>
<p>
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<p>I fear you asking a lot. She can’t understand she’s losing her tuition unless someone TELLS her she’s losing her tuition. To her mind, she probably thinks good grades = continued schooling. She probably has no clue that her tuition is contingent on acceptable study habits. She might think that the only consequence of her actions is moving out. If you haven’t told her tuition money is gone, she won’t know.</p>
<p>You’ve said that she wants to stay in school. If you plan to revoke that privlege after she moves out because you don’t like her study habits, fine. That’s your perogative. I’m merely saying she deserves to know. She’s not a mindreader and she needs time to line-up her loans. </p>
<p>I will return to lurking now. I’m sorry to butt in.</p>
<p>I thought I was clear all along that my daughter knew I was done with tuition. She knows that I expect her to move out and figure things out for herself. I have already outlined the help that I will furnish to her during this transition so I don’t think it is necessary to keep bringing it up or reminding her. If she wants to continue she can take loans…that is her perogative or she could work some serious hours stash some money aside and reduce the cost of her loans when she decides to go back. She has options that are a heck of alot better than what most young adults would have with this attitude. </p>
<p>I do not expect straight A’s from any of my kids however I do expect academic growth. How does one measure such a thing…talk to them and you know. Watch what and how they think and you know. In my daughters case not opening a book is a tell tale sign that books are a waste of money. Buy them new and sell them used with an intact binding and not a mark on a page. I will not fund this because she will not pass the certification process. She of course thinks she will but this is the one thing I am certain that can not happen. She knows very little about her subject area so there is no chance. The state school in our state is a joke.</p>
<p>Progress not perfection. You can’t change her behavior and your reaction overnight. You are taking steps to protect yourself.
I do think you need to tell your D that this is the last semester you will be funding. It is the right thing to do. She will scream and rage but it should be done. We can not expect other people to read our minds. That is the adult thing to do.
I don’t know if you have read the brochure “Understanding Ourselves” that Al Anon publishes. If not I would suggest you track it down. It is not just about alcoholism. It applies to all areas of our lives. You are going through all the stages of someone effected by someone elses addictions or problems. If I can find a copy I will post a few excerpts.</p>
<p>M-3, glad to see you staying true to yourself.</p>
<p>Pea wrote:
</p>
<p>Actually, this is sign that M-3 really is changing, or has changed. It is so common in situations like this for the rest of the “system” to resist anyone getting healthy that when this doesn’t occur, it is pretty reliable that true change is not taking place. It isn’t going to be “easy” for these changes to occur. Like everything else, it will take effort and some “ground standing” which is going on. There may be one or two arguments which come out of nowhere, and actually seem to be related to something entirely different. People get afraid when someone changes like this. I think M-3’s strategy of simply holding the line and moving forward will produce results. If they do not? M-3 will be “off the hook” and can move on. </p>
<p>Changes like this take years because the problems they surround took years to develop. Nothing can be done about that unfortunate fact.</p>
<p>Again, good luck. I hope you are able to have a nice weekend.</p>
<p>“I don’t want to say it I want her to understand that by us having her move out we are done funding this education that does not require her to read and study.”</p>
<p>I just read this thread. I’m sorry your daughter is having such a hard time. My mom told me from the third grade on that I was on my own for college (then gave us each a little treat of $900 during the school year, a monthly allowance, which I didn’t get when I was working).</p>
<p>I agree with the other posters. You are doing the right thing, but yes, you need to tell her now. Sit down at the kitchen table, explain in less than 30 seconds (which will feel like an eternity to her anyway) your reasons, and give her a firm deadline, informing her that you will move her things if she does not.</p>
<p>I don’t know what kind of person she is but there is a chance she won’t leave when you ask. You should be prepared for that scenario.</p>
<p>M3, yesterday I did not intend to imply you should forge her name, I was thinking of the money of hers you have “had” and wondering is that was a joint account for the two of you so you could do that.</p>
<p>Or raise heck with the burser showing them the original check that came from you???</p>
<p>In my mind, the only issue here is M3’s daughter’s behavior toward her parents and siblings. If she by some miracle gets good grades without cracking a book (and without cheating), more power to her. The fact that her study habits are a joke to the mom or that the state college in her state is not up to M3’s standards is beside the point. Get this kid on her way to independence–she’s earning credits toward a degree and ultimately a career is the path to that end. I can’t change another person’s values. But, if this were my kid, she’d already be out of the house for her rotten manners and behavior. But, personally, for me the prize is the diploma and if daughter is attaining that goal, albeit not the way I hope, then I’d keep my eye on that prize.</p>
<p>I just spoke to my husband before he left to go all the way to her college to pick her up. I let him know that he is creating a situation which when my two sons leave and my other is off at work I will be left to deal with. I do not plan on supplying my daughter with rides everyday because frankly I need to focus on my business. My insurance rates are going up a great deal and I am bracing for that bill. I added addional insurance to all of the cars and an umbrella policy on my cars and home. We have already been hit hard with six drivers…speeding tickets and other moving violations. I am hoping we are still insurable without going into a special pool. </p>
<p>Again, my daughter KNOWS because I have been clear. I have not brought it up again because I am no longer discussing what I have made clear. She may be accustomed to my telling her something three or more times but at the age of 20+ I am not doing it anymore. I was more than clear a few weeks ago and based on my behavior this past week she should not have any notion that I will agree to pay. I do not owe this to her at this time of her life when she can not be civil, kind or appreciative. I would happily help her if I thought she was able to turn her life around. She will not turn around if she is living here and she has me to mend her fences and help her along. I guess some of you did not realize that I have said this to her already…so why should it be spelled out everytime she is in my presence. I am not looking to start a tirade of her words. She knows and now she deals with it. I am disgusted that my husband is even picking her up at school. It was clear that her cell phone was in use at the time she was in the accident. I am so grateful she and the other driver were not killed. I am hoping there will not be a lawsuit on top of the coverage for that gentlemans car damage.</p>
<p>What has changed my attitude…my daughter took the biggest and most irresponsible risk of her life. She took a heavy weapon and got behind the wheel and risked death. That was my breaking point. That was the moment when I could not feed this behavior for one more instance. I went to the sight of the accident when she called and Iknew instantly that the only way that accident occured was by her recklessness. If moving her out means she has a chance to grow up and stop this crap than it will be worth more than any degree ever will. I have lost any feeling of sympathy regarding her ADHD or past depression when I saw what she could have done that day. My husband may want to protect her but I will draw the line at him buying her a car or offering support for her to be able to party in her own place. If she wants to party on her own she will do so when she has the time to spare in her non working hours.</p>
<p>I’d keep the school issue separate from the poor behavioral issue. </p>
<p>I would want my kid to graduate with the degree and if she were earning the credits with decent grades, she’d be on her way to independence and I would not want to sabotage that part of her life by withholding tuition in the final year. The end goal would be independence. She’d be equipped with a degree and once she graduates, she is on her own to support herself (as my daughters are as well). I would not be punitive or give consequences for the manner in which she approaches the schoolwork. </p>
<p>As far as consequences for her disrespectful behavior…that would not be tied to school and the goal of graduating. Rather, she would no longer have the option of living at home as her behavior is intolerable. She’d have to live in an apartment or dorm, which actually is in her best interests in building independence anyway which is the ultimate goal here. Her behavior would not be tolerated. But I would not tie that piece to tuition.</p>
<p>^ She has a big mouth with me so she could put it to good use and head over to the financial aid dept at her school and take out loans for one year of state tuition. It will not kill her to do that if that is what she wants.</p>
<p>Remember that I have three other kids and they have worked all during school…one even worked full time for over a year. If she wants this she can figure it out. People with mouths like this are usually pretty good at asserting themselves when need be.</p>
<p>If she was using the cell during the time of the accident and you have checked the phone record to prove that, then the consequence for that is that she no longer can drive your vehicles or be insured by your dime. I would not tie that to tuition either. </p>
<p>Each behavior should have consequences related to the specific behavior.</p>
<p>M-3 does not need a “lesson” in how to parent her adult child. She has told her daughter that the expectations are that she study if she is to continue to pay the tuition. The daughter has not complied. It honestly doesn’t matter if you or I think this is a “reasonable” expectation. It IS the expectation. She has told her what the consequence will be.</p>
<p>It doesn’t matter if I agree, of course. Just giving my opinion. I am not the only one with that opinion either. </p>
<p>In any case, whatever momma-three decides for consequences, I hope they are spelled out very clearly. I think it would be helpful to have a counselor involved, but that again is her choice. I recall her saying she has a counselor for herself and that person may be able to help her put a plan in motion.</p>
<p>It is going to be difficult, I believe, however, for m-3 to put these plans in motion if the husband is working against that plan (and I feel sorry for m-3 if that is the case). For instance, she can say “no more tuition” or “no more car privileges” or “must move out on your own” and that won’t work if hubby goes against it.</p>
<p>I also believe m-3 would ordinarily have no idea how much D studies if D lived at college like most 20 year olds do. The mom would only have her grades and credits to go by.</p>
<p>Also, how do you concretely set criteria of “how much you study” or that “you actually learn a lot”? I have no clue how that is defined or how D might prove it. Many would go by the grades and credits obtained, and also not be privy to the rest as the kids live away at college.</p>
<p>The mom also says the D has a high IQ and maybe she is able to obtain high grades without a lot of effort, in light of the fact she goes to a school that is not that challenging for her.</p>
<p>I don’t disagree with your principle, at all Suzie. If my kid is making satisfactory progress towards a degree, undergrad or grad, I’m paying for it. But, that is my kid, who is pretty darn gracious and tends to take my feelings into account, even if she occaisonally does idiotic boneheaded 20 yo or 16 yo things. So far, none of the rest of it, and we have always said we would pay for education. We believe in education.</p>
<p>But, and I think this is really important, M-3 has a whole other set of circumstances and not a lot of leverage. It’s not for us to decide what makes sense here, as much as we would like to armchair quarterback the homelife from way out here in cyberville. :)</p>