Daughter just threw in the towel

<p>Of course m-3 has to do what she believes in and what she feels will work in her situation. It is way easier to be on the outside looking in than to be the one experiencing it. Therefore, she can pick and choose what posts or suggestions to consider and which to discard. The decisions of what to do are all hers to make. </p>

<p>In my view, the leverage for the disrespectful behavior would be certain consequences. The leverage with the car issue would be other consequences. I don’t think either would be reflected in paying tuition. But I also hear m-3 saying she doesn’t like how much D studies or not or how much she learns or not, and I do think it should be said that that itself would not be viewed as a big problem by many parents as long as she was earning the degree with a decent GPA. I think the expectation in that area isn’t that appropriate and I can’t see tying the consequences to that itself. The behavioral or car issues are something else and those should indeed have consequences and leverage on the parents’ end. Just my opinion.</p>

<p>Thus, the leverage would be…</p>

<p>car accident due to texting while driving…no use of our cars and we will not pay your insurance</p>

<p>disrespectful over the top behavior…may not live in our home and we won’t pay for any extras beyond tuition </p>

<p>don’t study that much but achieve decent grades…no consequences …she earns her degree… a worthy goal…she is on her own once degree is attained</p>

<p>receive no credit for a course or get below a C…we will not pay the tuition (but that is not the case with this girl)</p>

<p>Further frugal cost cutting, if your DSs are soon to graduate, you can certainly, and may be required to, put them on their own policies, all 4 kids would then be responsible for their own coverage. Though if you are claiming them on taxes, you can still be sued, so that only works to limit liability once they are independent</p>

<p>Do start looking for a good therapist for yourself. The best organization I know for this sort of thing is AlAnon. Even if the problems are not alcohol related, this organizations methodology is terrific for those of us who are having problems with others. One of the things that we need to understand is that we need to take care of ourselves first and foremost in order to be of the most use for our loved ones who have problems. Often we have enabling behaviors that we just don’t recognize that is causing problems. AlAnon addresses these things. Also, a good counselor and support group may be able to come up with some good local suggestions to some of your issues.</p>

<p>I don’t look at it as throwing your daughter out. Basically, it is time your daughter makes this split. If she cannot do this, perhaps some type of halfway house is needed. The thing is, what would she do, if something happened to you and her father? You really aren’t doing any favors harboring her the way you are. So be compassionate, firm, gentle, loving with your daughter and try not to show emotion, particularly anger when she gets herself in trouble. Just be sympathetic and then move on. I’ve seen this work far better than the emotional confrontations that occur when kids do something stupid. By not engaging in battle, you get an important advantage. Be very, very sympathetic about her problems. Agree that it sucks big time and agree that you don’t know what to do either. Because you don’t.</p>

<p>You cannot control with whom she rides. But you can tell her you need your car, and rekey it so that she can’t take it. Just keep it calm and easy, and light.</p>

<p>^I have been to Al Anon and would agree it is a good program for these situations. My therapist agreed that my daughter needs to move out…so that I could have some peace. She knows my daughter and believes that my daughter will be just fine on her own. My daughter sees another therapist in the same office, and she too feels that it is long in coming. My daughters therapist is obviously apalled when she hears my daughter speak the way she does. She has used phrases like “entitled, drama, and lack of emotion” when she hears my daughters language. I am not throwing her out I am insisting that she leave. If I was throwing her out she would have been gone with her clothes out the door and the locks changed…that has never been done. </p>

<p>Daughter came home today to credit card bills over $400.00 so her money is dwindling fast. I would like to see her go before she spends through what she has and tells us that she can’t leave for lack of funds. My husband does realize that her doing this is just a ploy to stay in the house. I knew she would do something like this just so she has yet another excuse to stay. The thing is I know every possible trick because she has pulled it all before. There are not to many knew things she could do. My husband on the other hand really can’t imagine his daughter being so manipulative to think these things through…unfortunately she is.</p>

<p>It might be a very nice thing to find a local program for her to try ,yeah, I know more money out of you. Get her a place to live and pay the rent there. Yeah, she’ll drop out most likely. But she can stay in her apartment and find a job. If that is how she wants to use the money you intended to use for college, her wedding, her inheritance, that is fine. It is paying for your peace of mind. </p>

<p>Be very aware that none of this should be a battle or vindictive but carried out with smiles and encouragement. You are sorry, but it just isn’t good for HER to be here at home, and you care for her too much to expose HER to your problems and, yes, you are working on them. </p>

<p>I’m kinda in the same boat as you. I want my oldest to leave and get his own place, even knowing that he is not mature enough to swing it. The problem is that I can’t help him and it is hurting me and the rest of the family having him here. It’s doing him no good either since he isn’t listening to anything DH or I have to say. He lived on his own for several years, albeit not well, my my standards, and it really was much better on all of us. So, as soon as his car is paid off–in 3 months, we will help him find a place. I’ve nearly bitten off my tongue so that I don’t use this as a punishment or in vitriol because, yes, I am bitter about some of this. But it truly is not within my control, and I am enabling a lot of his behavior just because I know about his issues. Can’t help it. Better he has to take care of himself and take full consequence of his foolishnesses. </p>

<p>You aren’t alone in any of this. I have friends who are truly caught with kids who are truly at risk and they can’t bear to increase that risk despite the toll it is placing on everyone else in the family. I’m talking about some truly hard core problems like kids who are heavy duty drug addicts, suicidal, have babies that they cannot care for. You are welcome to PM me. I know it isn’t easy doing this, but if you can get your emotions out of control and show a cheerful facade about all of this, it makes it a lot easier.</p>

<p>Hopefully, H will get on board with you soon. “Insisting that she leave” could look like this: deadline, two weeks from today to find a place to move to that you can afford. We’ll pay the first month’s rent and the security deposit, then you’re on your own. Two weeks goes by and nothing happens? Pack up her stuff, find a room or studio apartment for her, within her budget. Make sure it’s month to month, no lease, and pay the first month and security for her and move her stuff in. Then change your locks. If the place doesn’t suit her, she can move as she wishes. She will thank you eventually. But H has to be on board.</p>

<p>In any case, it seems you are adopting the right attitude, not giving into the drama, successfully “detaching.” A really awful word to have to use in relation to our children, but I’ve been there, it’s necessary, and it works. And I do think it’s ridiculous to pay for any more schooling regardless of grades or study habits. I believe you have the right to expect gratitude and civility from your daughter. Without that, why should she get any of the family money? She’s an adult, after all, and any additional financial support on your part is truly voluntary, out of the goodness of your heart. Also, you said that she would cash a refund of your money if tuition were refunded?! Wow, that’s incredible. My response would be to let her know that you would consider that stealing, and that she will now be cut out of the will. Seriously. So before you cash that check, my dear, make sure you understand the consequences of your actions. But of course, H has to be on board. Good luck to you.</p>

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<p>Is your husband aware that two therapists think that your daughter should move out and that she will be OK? How does he defend his position that he now doesn’t want her to move out when two therapists share your point of view? Surely, he must realize that it is better if you and he are on the same page, in this or any other parenting situation. (Obviously, in this case I think the correct page is yours.)</p>

<p>I really hope that moving out will not come across as punitive but rather as “it’s time to live on your own as a step toward independence.” Insist upon it as she is 20 years old. It really is in her best interests. The fact that her therapist and your own therapist also think so (not to mention tons of other parents here!) should hopefully persuade your husband. Even mention to him that you don’t mean this as a punishment for your daughter but a way to help her become an adult and have to deal with life’s situations and natural consequences and to move beyond what seems to be “high school mode.” She is not going to mature and grow up if not put in a situation that makes her have to. Not to mention she has entitlement issues and needs to learn to fend for herself more and not rely on everything being done for her and gotten for her.</p>

<p>Your husband needs to realize you are not giving up on your D but rather trying to help her in the long run by doing this.</p>

<p>Sorry, gotta say it. Who cares if it’s perceived as punishment? Does the D care how her foul mouthed, disdainful, disrespectful attacks on her mother are perceived? Apparently not, in fact, the fact that D is still in the home is teaching her to keep it up. Negative consequence = punishment. If D spoke to her boss the way she speaks to her mother, do you suppose she might be “punished” i.e. be fired? Of course. And sorry, gotta say this too: what is wrong with the husband that he tolerates his kid speaking to his wife, her mother in this manner? Something is seriously wrong with a man who would tolerate such disrespect. Lots of counseling all around needed here. Stand your ground, M-3.</p>

<p>^^
That’s an interesting point about H tolerating the treatment of Mommathree but i think that society, in general, has become more tolerant of disrespect than generations ago. When I was a kid we were not even allowed to refer to my mother as “she”. My dad would blow a gasket. In reference to my mom we would say “mom said I could go out” but we could not say “she said I could go out”. </p>

<p>I think that some of that tolerance come from the experience of having a child with a history of depression or other issues. Often, it is difficult for parents to set boundaries with a child with “issues” (especially one that has explosive episodes) because they fear the outburst or they fear that their own actions will drive that child back to destructive behaviors or depression. I’m not saying that this is an appropriate way to parent a difficult child but it is the reality of it for many people.</p>

<p>Momma-Three – We’ve been through some similar issues in my extended family, and they really, really hurt. That time when not all the decision makers are on the same page was the hardest, and caused much anxiety and stress on top of an already hugely stressful situation. Eventually, though, we all did get on the same page, and it got easier. Never easy – and that’s probably a good thing – but easier to be consistent and to all reinforce the same message. People move at their own pace; we each have our own journey. While things are still betwixt and between in your home, I hope you’re finding a place a refuge, metaphorically or physically, that is safe and relatively peaceful so that you can do the important work of taking care of yourself.</p>

<p>Agree with sopranomom regarding the “punitive” side of this and I said so several pages ago. I could not and would not be all smiles and encouragement or have a cheerful facade.
M3’s daughter does not deserve it. And M3 will explode if she has to behave this way.</p>

<p>^^ Both Soprano and EPTR are absolutely correct. I have given so much thought to this and it is disturbing that my husband is well aware of the disrespect and is often the brunt of it as well but not on the same level as I am, yet he allows it by not putting his foot down and not accepting it. I grew up the same way…if reference to my mom was in the “she” form we were instantly darted the look that let us know that would not be tolerated. I never would have ever spoken this way to either of my parents and to this day I would not say anything remotely construed as disrespectful to my dad. </p>

<p>EPTR is right in that we have allowed my daughter to get away with alot because she was so fragile. We were so concerned about adding to her distress that we did not hold her accountable for her words or actions in regard to us. What a terrible mistake. When she was younger we also let her get away with more than we should have, because she was our one daughter among three sons. She was high strung and very petite and we viewed her as our little one for too long. I must admit my husband was more apt to do this than I was. </p>

<p>When our daughter came home from school we really were afraid of her out of control behavior and we forgot to enforce the basic rules of treatment. I just assumed she knew but as I said before when she came home she was not the same person when she went. Something changed when she was away that year, and as some of you recall I had feared that she had suffered some kind of trauma that year. To this day I wonder and have asked her many times…always the same answer…nothing happened. I may never know if that is true or not. I do know that she was involved in some nasty behavior while she was away…that all came out gradually through either therapy or her own admission and even through a friend she had while she was away. </p>

<p>We are here in the present and honestly I am not looking to make nice regarding this. I do however want her to move out under peaceful terms with some help from us just so that she does not need to come home. I will not pay tuition because she neither appreciates the value of it or the financial gift. I would love nothing more than to have a daughter who treated us well and she would have received whatever we could give her, but doing what we have been doing is only making her think the world will be like this. There is not a man alive who would be able to live with this nonsence and neither would a full time employer. If she continues to get her way than she has no chance of learning how to be a functional person. She can not continue to manipulate her way through life.</p>

<p>momma3, just a thought. PERHAPS once D moves out and is paying for her tuition on her own you might consider a reimbursement program. If she has a successful semester ON HER DIME, and shows you her grades online (too easy to download and alter with word processing), you might have an agreement to reimburse her 100% of tuition, or 75% so she still has skin in. You can agree to cut her a check or one to the school to be applied to the next semester.</p>

<p>If she pays for semester A and completes it successfully, and you give her a check for semester A to be used for semester B–even if she blows semester B–that money for B was actually her money. </p>

<p>It is just a thought. It might help motivate her, show that you care about her education, but still hold her responsible.</p>

<p>Your current attitude and handling of your daughter is on track. Congrats for learning to walk away, hold your tongue, and stop the madness directed towards you. She can no longer manipulate you if you do not let her. Your husband will see repeatedly and first hand what is going on. Stand firm. And do not become her personal taxi. If he thinks she needs to be transported personally to college, he can do it. If you are doing it, you are willing only to get her to the bus station.</p>

<p>I agree about nudging her into her own place peacefully. The tuition reimbursement plan might get her out sooner.</p>

<p>Similar thought to Sunnyflorida - with one difference.</p>

<p>As I have mentioned, I went through a time when I was a terror. My parents had contributed very little towards my education, but once I dropped out, I knew I would never get another penny. I had squandered their money and mine. </p>

<p>I returned to school about 18 months later a changed person. I paid my way, took out some student loans, and graduated in record time. I was a fulltime student but always added an extra course so I could get out as soon as possible. I earned all A’s. </p>

<p>My parents said very little. They acted pleased, but didn’t make a big fuss. When I graduated they gave me an envelope with a check to cover my student loans. I never expected their generosity and was so grateful. I think if when I returned to school they had started bargaining with me, offering a carrot, I would have been defensive and not appreciative. </p>

<p>One of the things I wish I could explain was why I was so rebellious and self-destructive. If I could, I would offer you my insight to help your D. I just know I was wild and defiant and I am lucky I survived. All I can tell you is that when I was hateful with my parents (although I cursing was never part of it & I had NO sense of entitlement) it was more reflective of my self loathing than anything else.</p>

<p>Have been following this thread since the beginning and finally jumping in here. M3 I just wanted to say how sorry I am that you are dealing with this. I am living with a daughter who sounds EXACTLY like yours (except she has not used the F word at me, but who knows, that could happen tomorrow). My D is a year older, has one semester left until graduation. I’m not sure she’ll make it. I’m not sure my husband and I will make it. So much stress. She was home with us last year after a meltdown at school (I haven’t read your old threads so not sure what happened to your D but I have gathered similar issues to my D’s-anxiety, depression, self-destructive behaviors). This year so far has been a nightmare. She went back to school, has done little, passed all her classes in the fall after dropping two and manipulating her psychiatrist into writing a note to excuse her absenses, which some of the professors did. When she does her work, it is stellar, as it always was. But her attendance has been terrible. She has gone through every self-destructive behavior I can think of. She is medicated, but continues to struggle with mood swings, sometimes on an hourly basis. She had an accident with her car at school (out of state) before Christmas break and didn’t tell us. I learned of it when the insurance company called me. It was entirely her fault, but fortunately not serious. She did not work at her on-campus job at all during the fall, despite our agreement with her that she needed to work ten hours per week to make her car payments (which are also in my name so I was stuck paying them). She didn’t attend therapy even after I did all the legwork to line up a therapist in her area. After being hospitalized again in October, we lined up group therapy and individual therapy for her near her school (psychiatrist told her I should help her with this to make sure it was done), but she rarely attended either and eventually I called the therapist and told her I would no longer be responsible for the bills for missed appointments. So you can see, your story is VERY familiar to me. So I am so very sorry for the pain I KNOW you are experiencing because I am there too.
My D used to be a super productive, happy, high-achieving, talented young lady and also, like your daughter, is very very pretty, which in this case I think is not helpful to her because she uses that too. She is now someone I don’t even recognize. She can barely utter a word of truth. She is manipulative in every situation. She blames others for every mistake she makes. She uses others. She seems to have very little understanding of other’s feelings. She is skating by at school using her charm and a myriad of excuses, although her grades had been great for her first two years when she was actually doing the academics but was apparently falling apart mentally, until this past semester when they were just ok (mostly Bs). Other posters have suggested your D might have Borderline Personality Disorder. That has been suggested to us by psychiatrists in both hospitals as well as her regular psychiatrist, as probably what our D has, as well as probably being bipolar and having an anxiety disorder. BPD criteria I have read strongly resemble my D, and it isn’t pretty. You might want to research that and see what you think about if it fits your D. I do agree with many posters that either of our girls could just need some tough love though. How to know? But I have pretty much begun to feel that even if our D has an underlying mental ilness, like BPD or bipolar, at the end of the day, now that she is on medication, SHE has to make good choices! I can’t make them for her! And she has to WANT to make good choices, or it won’t happen. But it is emotionally draining to keep watching and hoping that she does the right thing, on a daily basis.
I have learned so much from reading this thread thanks to you and to all the CC posters who have tried so hard to give advice. I can’t tell you how this thread has helped me stay strong on some of my rough days. I have my own therapist too and she has helped me and continues to help me. My husband, like yours, did not really see the issues at first because he is not as involved in our kids’ lives as I have been, as the Mom. Our other kids (we have four others, three older sons, like you, and a younger D) did not really “get it” at first either, but now have seen the lies and the manipulations first hand so many times that they are firmly of the belief that it is our D who needs to change. My H and I had many fights over our D because he thought I was over reacting to things or imagining things at first, because she was many hours away at school and I couldn’t always pinpoint exactly what the problems were, and because she has become so good at manipulating people and also the lying!!! I just knew in my gut that things were not as they appeared. And unfortunately at the beginning of her junior year, all Hell broke loose. And then, as with your D, we were so worried about her, she was so fragile (we thought), and we were so hopeful that with medication and lots of therapy she would be better. But she is not. And it has taken my H a long time to finally see the truth. But now he does. It is easier with a united front, that is for sure. We are working together to help our D learn the consequences of her actions. And it isn’t going smoothly with her, but we’re trying. We so badly want her to graduate in May, just so she will have her degree (she missed a whole year but will still be able to graduate with her class due to AP credit and summer classes, etc. if she can just do what she needs to do!) We did take her car away since she didn’t live up to working to pay for it. And what a temper tantrum when I dropped her at school and demanded the keys-both sets(I couldn’t physically take the car home yet so it’s sitting at her school but she can’t drive it). It was almost comical now that I am wise to the manipulation tactics she uses. We had her sign a contract with certain stipulations which if she does not meet them, she will not return for spring semester (they are on three week winter term right now). Consequences to HER actions. I so hope that she will succeed, but it isn’t clear even after two of the three weeks whether or not she will meet the expectations. And that makes me very sad.
Anyway, I so sympathize with your situation and wanted to let you know that I DO understand how difficult this is. I really really really do! Hugs to you. Stay strong!</p>

<p>neverknow…thanks for sharing your story. I know that others are reading this thread and likely gaining insights to their own challenging situations. I really feel for you and for momma-three in these stressful situations. I am glad your husband has come around and is now working in tandem with you. I really hope for that in momma-three’s case because I think it is going to be even more difficult to enact limits and plans to change the situation if her husband is working against those. Lots of hugs needed for many here.</p>

<p>neverknow…The pain of having a child like this is nothing short of heartbreaking. My daughter and yours sound so similar that we could be talking about the same kid. I just responded to a PM and it is obvious that there are a few of us that are experiencing very similar situations. </p>

<p>I have often wondered if my daughter has either Bipolor or a personality disorder. The docs and therapist don’t believe that is the case. I often wonder how that determination is made and could someone with this behavior fool professionals. I still think my daughter is fooling hers. </p>

<p>One difference I noticed immediately was when you spoke of getting both sets of car keys from her when you dropped her off. My daughter would never have turned them over especially on the grounds of her campus. My daughter would have turned that into the biggest scene worthy of the academy award. It hurts doesn’t it? I have been through the circle of questioning regarding my parenting and what I might have done to have a child like this. Even if my daughter is Bipolor or has a personality disorder I agree with you that it is long in coming that she be accountable for every action. The world will not make an excuse for her and as her mom it has become impossible to excuse it myself. I wish you the same peace that I am seeking and I hope your daughters life will go more smoothly once she is finished with school and on her own. I keep hoping something life changing will trigger a change in her behavior…it usually does but only for a short time. It gets so hard that the only way to live with this now is to have her go on her own nearby so that she could figure it all out on her own. Hugs to you too.</p>

<p>M3 - Good morning. I am hoping you have a terrific day today.</p>

<p>momma-three–I’ve been reading this thread with much sympathy for your situation. It really sounds like you want to do the right thing to protect yourself and your family (including your daughter) and to help her make progress towards and independent an productive life.</p>

<p>Several posters have mentioned the possibility of borderline personality disorder. One can’t make a diagnosis over the internet, of course, but you can look up the criteria and see if you think it may fit your daughter. I recently heard a talk given at the National Institute of Mental Health by Marsha Linehan, the developer of Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT). This is the ONLY evidence-based therapy shown to have a significant impact on borderline personality disorder, and I was struck by her statement that often it took years for someone to get an appropriate diagnosis–I think she said the average number of psychotropic medications a client was on when they finally got the diagnosis was eight! Often, therapists are reluctant to make the diagnosis, because it has such pejorative connotations–for example, some doctors don’t want to treat patients/clients with BPD because they are “difficult.” However, once a diagnosis has been made, effective and very specific psychotherapy is available. She was a great speaker and was very compassionate about the suffering of both clients and families who are living with this disorder. True DBT is generally provided in outpatient therapy in a specialized clinic, and includes both individual therapy, skill building groups, and telephone coaching. It also requires a team approach to treatment. You can google DBT (or look on Amazon for books) to learn more. Interestingly, DBT is now also being applied with some success for other diagnoses, including treatment-resistent depresson and eating disorders. She showed some very encouraging data on reduction or remission of symptoms for all of these diagnoses. Even if you don’t have a local treatment program available, there may be therapists who used DBT in their treatment. Of course, this requires the cooperation and buy-in of your D, but even having knowledge about its existence may give you some hope and some ability more effectively cope with her behaviors. Hope this is helpful.</p>