<p>What Mousegray. As I was reading this thread, I was beginning to formulate what I wanted to add to this conversation and then I got to Mousegray’s post and realized that it had already been said. </p>
<p>BTW, have you shown this thread to you husband? He may be helped in reading everyone’s response. There is some real wisdom here. </p>
<p>I wish you and your husband well as you face this latest challenge.</p>
<p>I just want to say that if the expectation is that the D live independently, I would not characterize it as “throwing her out”…because I don’t see this as a consequence, nor a negative thing at all. I think a college aged kid should be living outside the home, if possible. I would not make that at all like some consequence for her behavior, but rather, “it’s time.” She had gone away to a college and I know you brought her back home due to too much partying and not doing well enough academically, but the intent was for her to live on her own. I think that should still be the intent, whether she attends school or not. I would make sure the approach with the D is on that vein. My kids are expected to live independently and support themselves and this is not some punishment but an expectation for them as young adults.</p>
<p>I think you guys should sit down with D and present a few options. Options A and B are things she can do and Options C and D are not on the table. That leaves her some choice in the matter but within boundaries of what you are willing to allow/support on your end.</p>
<p>momma-three, thank you for posting. One of my kids could be your daughter’s twin, and I’ve been foreseeing this road for some time. She’s just a high school version of your D.</p>
<p>Work the tuition reimbursement with her just the way they do in many corporation. She pays for it and then, after providing proof of course completion and grades, she is reimbursed based on her grades, e.g., 100% for each A, 80% or 90% for each B, etc. There’s no emotion or fighting; this is a business arrangement.</p>
<p>The fact that she gets belligerent and feels entitled, well, that’s her problem. If she gets upset about the change, so what. She’s moving out, end of story. She is toxic to you and your family.</p>
<p>Your daughter is not as clueless as you might think. She CAN live on her own. She’s a smart girl. She’ll keep trying to manipulate you. She’ll play helpless. She’ll subconsciously play on your H’s impulse to protect her. She’ll throw far more than two tantrums. But it’s like a two year old throwing a tantrum because she can’t run out into the street, or because you stopped her from using lipstick to draw on your clothes. Just do what needs to be done.</p>
<p>btw - Whenever we’ve had a credit balance once the semester billing was settled, the university ALWAYS cut the check to us (the parents). We’ve never contacted them about it; it just showed up in the mail payable in our names. It seems like the school should just refund the amount you have paid.</p>
<p>From Adad:</p>
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<p>From momma-three:
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<p>Momma-three, Right now your goal is find some sort of satisfactory resolution to this and within the next 2-3 weeks, I suspect you, H and sons will come up with some sort of plan with consequences. And perhaps things will settle down a bit. But please don’t translate ‘meeting with the therapist’ as ongoing counseling for you and your H. If you set consequences and the conflict eases up, you and H still need to do this. I suspect as long as this has been going on, you both need to examine how, as parents, you got into this situation to begin with (not that you’re to blame for D’s behavior, but you are responsible for how you’ve responded to or not responded to it). I suspect there’s a lot of disappointment on both of your sides, with each other, that will need to be dealt with, and having your daughter out of the house (because it will provide immediate results in the short term) might create a false sense of contentment. </p>
<p>So please make a commitment to engaging in some ongoing counseling with your H, no matter what the outcome is in the next month. Somehow I’ve picked up some negative vibes reading between some of your lines over many months now that I think you also need to take very seriously. Yes, you need to address immediate issues and have a facilitator, etc., but you need to address other issues also.</p>
<p>wow I am so sorry. I can imagine the pain and frustration you must feel and wish you weren’t facing this.</p>
<p>I think it is so ‘irrational’ that the advice about reinforcement/consequences won’t make a lot of sense. This is much deeper and psychological. Can you get her permission to talk to her therapist or consider family counselling together so you can at least wrap your head around it - to help you cope or to keep you out of a dynamic that might keep the pattern going? It seems truly self-destructive and there might be something you can do that will help in some way.</p>
<p>As a college prof, if i had an outstanding student who fell off the face of the earth I would want to know why and welcome the parents contacting me. In such cases though I usually go looking to find out what happened. I would be worried about them. </p>
<p>I have seen in my decades more than a handful of ‘perfect’ students who bail…it is almost like they are driven by anxiety, which works for the most part, but when it gets to be too much (such as nearing the end of the term, when something is due), they have to retreat to survive. The stress- the same stress that forces them to be perfect- is the one that undoes them. They just can’t take it anymore, and so the survive by retreating/withdrawing/blocking (since they can’t just dial back and do less…its all or nothing for them). We know it is very self-destructive in the longrun but in the shortrun it is all they know and is critical to their wellbeing.</p>
<p>As an out-of-state college student, I really do think having your daughter live independently will do a lot for your mother-daughter relationship. I personally learned to appreciate my mother a lot more when she was no longer there to take care of me, we obviously stopped having those petty squabbles about going out, chores, or homework, and we both became more affectionate due to miss eachother’s presence while apart. I don’t think your daughter really hates you like you say; she is probably just acting immature because she feels uncomfortable being a 21 year old adult and still living under her parent’s roof and rules, even if those rules are very few and lax. I probably was like your daughter back in high school but also tend to get that way during the summer when I am forced to take on that “child under the parent’s roof” role I don’t like. I’m also one of those daughters who always gets bothered about not being affectionate enough, and at least in my experience it has more to do with me being uncomfortable doing big displays of emotion than me not caring about my parents; chances are your daughter loves all of you quite a bit, but she is just not a demonstrative person (and particularly not when she knows you’re extremely angry at her for something, like you likely are now).</p>
<p>Best of luck with working out these problems with your daughter; just make sure not to talk to her about her problems the way you talk about them here, as no one wants to be told they’re a cold person whose drama keeps them more making a lot of friends for the holidays. I’m not saying you’ve done this, just warning you against making even mild comments like this as I know my mother has done similar things when she was angry and those kind of comments are VERY hard to forget/forgive.</p>
<p>Hope everything turns out well!</p>
<p>no advice, just virtual hugs to all of you. hoping the holidays will bring a measure of joy and peace in spite of all you’re going through and that the new year is a new beginning for your daughter.</p>
<p>I noticed that there are several moms with similar (if less extreme) issues with daughters. My loving, sweet tween has turned into a dramatic, entitled, self-absorbed, cruel to mother teen and I am horrified. I used to think there was something wrong with the parents that produced such B****y daughters and then mine joined the dark side. Like OP my S doesn’t display any of this behavior. He is not perfect but he is respectful, helpful, and kind to his parents. Why do some kids turn like this? Is it due to spoiling? Some poltergeist taking over?</p>
<p>Did OP’s D display this type of behavior in HS? Did it just get worse when she moved home? Is it always when the brothers come home/boyfriend? All D’s need to make a psychological break with their mothers at some point and for some it is not a pretty process but full of rebellion and cruel behavior toward the mom more than the rest of the family. It gets worse when there is an audience where D shows how powerful she is and how she can defy/hurt her mother and demonstrate that she is TOTALLY different from her mother, hates her mother, will never be like her mother. </p>
<p>Perhaps OPs D has not made the break and can’t make the break because she is physically at home. I am not hopeful that my own D will really grow up but I do notice that when I stop being her doormat I do get temporary improvement. I have stopped yelling but consequences for treating me badly are immediate and pretty extreme. She is rude to me when I am driving to a friends house (I turn back or just leave her to walk)…she refuses to do her chores…next time she asks for a ride/money/lunch…nope, isn’t happening. She complains that I am a controlling mother, not cool, mean, etc…I point out that she likes the part of me that drives her, feeds her, scratches her back at night so she has to accept the whole package …the mom who imposes curfew, insists on knowing where she is after school, etc. What most appalled me about my daughter’s behavior is that she would act out in front of her friends. At first I was so embarrassed I didn’t know how to react…now she is super well behaved in front of friends because I will totally dress her down in front of her friends and have even gone so far as to stop the car, ask my daughter to get out and driven the friends home. M3 does your daughter misbehave more around her boyfriend, brother and father? friends? Is this perhaps why the crises occur around breaks? If she doesn’t have an audience is she nicer? How was she immediately after you told her she had to walk home? better? Now she took your car out…I bet she will come home and mistreat you when your sons are there to see it. I know…it is incredibly hard to break the cycle because you love her and want to have the family together but if you look at it analytically perhaps you can identify a pattern, perhaps with help from the therapist, and try to break it. Good luck and lots of positive, sympathetic thoughts to you.</p>
<p>Starbright, I agree that there is a psychological base to the daughters issues but i think the manipulation of the parents is a separate (not unrelated) issue. Her behavior may be driven by anxiety but she has gotten a response from her behavior that she has come to seek out deliberately. That is the part that the parents have control over in their response.</p>
<p>Starbright, I think if you look at the D bailing at the end of the semester by itself, it may be anxiety and stress related. But in this case, reading beyond this one thread here and going to past threads, it sounds like D doesn’t take school seriously throughout the semester, not just at the end. She went away to a LAC and the parents brought her home due to too much partying and not keeping up with schoolwork. Mom says she barely does any schoolwork and sort of floats. Mom says that D really is not into schoolwork in general. So, I don’t think it is an issue of a kid who is a perfectionist and bales when the pressure is on at the end of a semester. A bigger picture was painted here. </p>
<p>I agree with others that the dynamics between mom and daughter would ease up a bit if the D were living on her own. That way, phone calls are catching up over a few days and not daily happenings. Mom would not be privy to every action and D would be more independent and have to deal with more on her own. This is the age for that. She is not in high school anymore. I’m hearing that Dad, and a partly Mom too, feel D can’t handle being on her own but I think it is in her best interests to have to rise to that expectation and get out of “high school mode.” Beyond the issue of maturing, it is just too conflict ridden to have this going on in daily life between mom and daughter (hard on mom!!).</p>
<p>fineartsmajormom - Good for you! I think you need to give parenting advice to many of us. Of course, dealing with a teen is very different than a 21 year old adult. I do wonder why OP’s daughter has access to a car. If she is taking the car without permission, isn’t that stealing? Can’t you call the police?</p>
<p>I agree with EPTR.</p>
<p>How do I ppost a qustion on this website?!?!</p>
<p>Manny, there is a button on the first page of this forum called new thread. Use that. It is on the left side near the top.</p>
<p>fineartsmajormom…Yes my daughter does enjoy an audience but she does the same thing when it is just her and I. She also puts her phone on speaker after she has caused a major problem and allows people to hear the conversation (not too pretty at times). I have stopped calling her a while ago, but she will share text messages as well. She loves the drama and it does escalate any time all of our sons are home, but more so when her boyfriend is in town. She seems to forget all about her responsibilties whenever he comes in and about a month ago he came in three consecutive weekends. I saw the towel being thrown before it even happened. I had asked her why he was coming in when both he and she had finals but she said that he had his finals under control. I wasn’t concerned about his finals. The weekends he came in, she didn’t open a book at all from Friday to Sunday night. By the third weekend, I actually asked him why he was coming in with finals coming. His response was that I needed to mind my business and let her do what she wanted. He has become very disrespectful and arrogant and as a result of that encounter I told my daughter that he could pick her up outside the house…he is not welcomed here anymore. I do believe he knew what he was doing by coming in, and a part of me thinks that he does not want to see her succeed in school. This is the same boy that I adored years ago but after their breakup he has become a different person. I guess a year apart from one another brought about many changes. </p>
<p>Sunday night our daughter came home and started her crap. My sons told her to get rid of the attitude so she left the house and came back at midnight. The next day she started again but I walked away. Today I left with two of my sons for a festive walk in the city. We are staying clear of each other. We have not asked her about her grades, and don’t plan on bringing any of it up until after Christmas. At that point we will discuss a plan for her to live independently. I suspect she knows it is coming because I think my sons told her mom has had enough as have they with seeing the treatment I get from her.</p>
<p>In my view, if she were living on her own like most kids her age (particularly ones who attend school), she would not have to account to you about her comings and goings with her boyfriend. That whole interchange you had with the boyfriend would NOT have occured at all if she were living at college or in an apartment. The level of parental involvement and supervision is more 'high school-ish" from what it sounds like and really, they are on another stage of life. </p>
<p>For example, my younger D has a boyfriend (I realize she is a little older as she is 22, but she had long term boyfriends throughout college too) and I don’t know which nights they spend together exactly (not that I truly care or not that it is a big secret) and I don’t have discussions with the BF about what he does, etc. They live away from us (have separate apartments in the same city as one another and used to go to college together but have graduated). He seems very nice to me, but our only contact is when we visit D and often have seen him too (they also work and perform together some of the time). So, I don’t really deal with the BF other than niceties when we see him on a visit. I’m not really involved in their relationship though D will share things here and there (ie., last night she was going to a show he had worked on as it was his last night in their city before he went home for a visit to his state and she is coming home soon too to visit us). My D has met his parents too when they visit him in the kids’ city and my D even went away with them on a short trip. But that is the extent of the parental involvement in their relationship. </p>
<p>In any case, I’m sorry to hear the BF is not welcome in your home as that whole situation is not so great. I think you know too much about D and her BF that you would not be privy to if she was living at college or in an apartment. This isn’t high school anymore. If your D moves into an apartment, she’ll be independent as someone her age should be. I think that is going to be one big help all the way around…best for her but also best for you too. I would think someone her age would WANT to live free of parents (except in her case, she does like the financial support, though many kids that age live away from parents but with support). I would never want to live at home when I was that age and same with my own kids. (actually, I was married already by the time I was your D’s age!! LOL) When you say she knows “it’s coming,” it comes across as a punishment. Maybe she wants to live free from parents. In any case, it should not be mentioned as a consequence for behavior but merely that it is an expectation that she lives away from home like others her age in or out of college.</p>
<p>I have to say I agree with soozievt</p>
<p>*I actually asked him why he was coming in with finals coming. *</p>
<p>was that a rhetorical question?</p>
<p>Sooziet,
You have a good point but, in defense of Momma three, it is very hard to be disinterested when the student is living at home. When your S or D is away at college, it is out of sight, out of mind, to some degree. What we don’t know can’t hurt us.</p>
<p>Momma three mentioned that this is a pattern of behavior that she has come to predict and it is very hard to keep your mouth shut and mind your own business (and I think it is her business if she’s writing the check) when you see history repeating itself.</p>
<p>This reminds me of a friend of my daughter’s who was extremely bright and high-achieving all through school. Around her senior year of high school she got involved with a guy and she lost all her ambition. She turned down some excellent schools to go to the local college so she could be near him and, in general, was causing her mother a great deal of heartache. My own daughter, and many of her friends, could not figure out what she saw in this guy and thought he was a bad influence. This went on for some time and eventually the relationship ended. She got her life together and has had a wonderfully productive and interesting time in her twenties. I only tell this story because sometimes a boyfriend can really affect the way a young woman behaves – and vice versa I’m sure.</p>
<p>Soozievt…I could not stop myself because he is a contributing factor to my daughter not paying attention to her responsibilties. He has done this since she started college at her LAC. He went up to visit her beginning with the first weekend she was there. He continued to travel to see her every three weeks and during her midterms and finals. When she broke up with him I thought she would pull it together but it was obvious other issues were going on. He hated that she was far from home and him and that was evident.
I also do not feel like I should keep quiet about distructive behavior either self induced or brought about by her boyfriend. She lives in our home and she has no curfew and is free to do what she wants…all we expect is respect and the completion of what she started to do. She has it very easy living here.</p>