<p>This reminds me of a Jack Prelutsky poem, how does it go?
…" I often…</p>
<p>For me, it all comes down to personal choices. If someone does not feel comfortable with their significant other, whether he/she is 16 or 60, having a personal relationship with their ex, they have two choices. Either accept it (or learn to live with it) or find someone else. I’m pragmatic. Life is too short. If you want a guy (I’m speaking toward the new girlfriend) who dedicates himself to you and leaves behind his past, they are out there. Be careful what you wish for, though.</p>
<p>There are, no doubt, situations where ex’s get “in the way”. I’m not sure that is applicable to this adolescent drama. </p>
<p>This thread is interesting, though, in that it gives a glimpse into how we think and respond as parents, counselors, advisers…</p>
<p>Well, as they say in court, already asked and answered.</p>
<p>WashDad –
</p>
<p>In our family, we also usually go out for ice cream after a nice evening at the theater. 
(just kidding, I gotcha the first time. Of all threads, this one needs occasional comic relief, JMO.</p>
<p>So here’s some serious input. At first I couldn’t get what CGM was driving at. Lots of what ifs and speculations, but after a while I began to see it. I thought to myself about it, which was hard because I’m a real non-player Mom-to-Mom. Moving from town to town every 5 years I never seem to get a grip on what’s really going on socially anywhere from “old” history (although I’ve gotten good at quick-flash intutions about the present).</p>
<p>Still, I thought: what would make me or any Mom act the way that newGF’s Mom is acting? So meddlesome! Yes, I think she’s wrong to try to dial it in herself, rather than teach her D to stand up for herself, to question or at worst object to the relationship. That’s part of exploring the limits of relationships, good learning.</p>
<p>What would make me feel that defensive would be: being the newcomer or socially weak town-wide. We’ve moved often, and it’s hard to make new friends for the kids, but they try and find some measure of success, although they can never really compete with old-old friendships within the community. That’s okay, every family has its landscape and that’s ours…the perpetual newcomers. </p>
<p>But what would make me feel awful is if I felt that the established oldtimers in town played fast and loose with my kids’ feelings and attempts to make a new friend, or more exciting, a “romantic” friend (big news at every age, let’s not denigrate it tooo much just because they’re not l8 yet). </p>
<p>I have no idea if this other family is newcomers, but they could be socially weak in the town, for any of several reasons. </p>
<p>For example, once when we had first moved into a new small town, I agreeably followed the advice of people at my H’s work to contact the one other parent whose S was the age of my S (both 8th graders). Teachers at school who met my S saw a natural commonality between them, both extremely bright, same religion, plus the other boy was there since birth so might help bring mine in socially. I gamely phoned up the other mom, after getting my S’s nervous okay–he didn’t know what to think, being of the scratch-and-look behaviors described above for 8th grade boys. It became a mortifying phone call. The Mom said “Well, my son is popular and already has friends.” I had heard he was indeed preppy and jocky and so on, and now all I could think (but never say!) was: how much skin off his back would it be to toss out one invite to my S? WOuld he suddenly lose all his popularity on account of my son? I was incredulous, and felt hurt and stupid when I hung up, realizing if the tables were turned and a newcomer ASKED to have the company of my kid, I think I’d manage to find a way. Instead, this Mom had her neighbor call me a day later, offering to introduce my kid to her sixth grade son, which my son refused. It did feel like a consolation prize, and I didn’t push it. (This was only our first week in town). Well I learned my lesson and never again engaged in “social engineering” for my kids. It backfires, badly. </p>
<p>But the point is – and this DOES align with CGM’s tenacious attempt to make her point, close to her heart – sometimes a kid is on the outside of every social circle. Oldtimers and old relationships in town are great, but some families aren’t privy to them, for a host of reasons (ours was being newbies to the town where few moved in, but you can imagine other reasons). I think CGM is trying to get everyone to stretch a bit and just IMAGINE (tho she’s being accused of endless speculation…) that perhaps this girl is less often popular, and we should feel for her, even to the point of challenging the old-pal young people not to ride roughshod over her feelings re: her new BF. </p>
<p>Even if it only lasts 3 weeks, it’ll be an important 3 weeks for that young girl, and she deserves the courtesy of being treated as if “exclusive” IF that’s what the two kids agreed between them. </p>
<p>I think everyone onsite IS agreeing that the mom made a strategic error to dial it in herself, rather than teach her D to stand up for whatever she perceives (silly or not) within her own new little BF-GF thingie. </p>
<p>Sooo…if you happen to agree (and I’ll admit it took me a lot of thinking to even perceive CGM might have a good point)…then the OP has a very interesting choice to make herself:</p>
<p>OP and Mom 2 could “blow it off” and assume Mom3 is nuts, “on drugs”, foolish for meddling and just laugh about it. Or either Mom of the old friendship could try to be kind and have a counter-conversation with Mom 3 to reassure her of all that’s been said here: they’re just buddies, etc., nothing to be concerned about, we care about her feelings, theater is just theater, whatever. </p>
<p>In other words, if the two old-pal kids are that secure, how much skin is it off their backs to reassure all the way around, and let the power-Moms reassure the weaker-Mom, not to lose sleep over this at night.</p>
<p>WASHDAD, again: As for ice-cream headaches…I know what you mean. I think I read these soap-operaish threads BECAUSE I feel like I can never “get” the social machinations and nuance around me (perpetual newcomer) so this lets me see into a crystal ball normally not availble for me to explore. I don’t have these old relationships…maybe someday I will, but meanwhile, kids are all grown up and away, so it won’t help them! But some folks have no patience for this whole kind of talking. Kudos to you if you’re hanging in here, trying to make sense from it all when it’s not your cup of tea!</p>
<p>After we moved to our community, my son befriended a nice kid at school (sixth grade). After school let out for summer, I called the boy’s mom to see if they could get together during the break. She hemmed and hawed, and actually asked where we lived! </p>
<p>Side bar: We live in a community of multiple golf courses and there are subdivisions that are quite nice (ours), and then there are subdivisions that are slightly more expensive (hers). We’re talking the difference of maybe 100 to 300 K in communities of homes from 300K to 1 Million. It wasn’t exactly like we were living in a 3rd world country and she was living in the OC. </p>
<p>I was so taken aback. She also did not like the fact that my son skateboarded (!). All in all, it was very uncomfortable. We ended up the conversation with her saying, “I’ll call you to let you know if and when our kids can get together.” She never called.</p>
<p>A couple weeks later, my son skated to her sons house (per his invitation, not hers). He came back later and said she was horrified that I allowed him to skateboard over (less than a mile, in residential/golf course community, on sidewalks), and she wouldn’t let her son “try out” his skateboard. She sent S home and told me there were “construction workers” that she doesn’t doubt have nefarious motives and she doesn’t let her son play outside! (This is a gated community.)</p>
<p>OK, there are strange people everywhere. But no doubt, if she were posting on this forum, her story would be so different, you would all be flaming me, my son, you-name-it.</p>
<p>That is my point- we all meddle, we all step over the line and sometimes it is called for and sometimes it is not</p>
<p>With the intertwined relationships involved- old friendships shifting around, new relationships blooming, teen girls involved, moms all involved on ALL sides, not just on the GF mom side, a boy, social events, get togethers, a seemingly small community, different HS, close friends drifting apart- you can’t just dismiss the GFs moms concerns out of hand just because she didn’t handle a situation well</p>
<p>For instance, if a mom came up to any one of you, and said your child/you is/are being mean to my child, which in essence what the GFs mom said, but in a clumsy way, how many of you would just ignore it, or how many of you would wonder, just a bit, if the mom’s accusations might have a tiny bit of truth to it, even if you never meant any harm</p>
<p>When my D was disinvited from her supposed best friends bday party, because another girl was jealous of my Ds friendships, the mother had no clue what was going on, she had been told my D was busy and that is why she wasn’t there</p>
<p>Yes, I said something to the mom…and yes I counseled my D…should I have said something, maybe not, but in the moment, it just came out</p>
<p>Would I have done it again, maybe, was I wrong in what was going on, no I wasn’t</p>
<p>And again, this girl was seen as very popluar, nice, the teachers LOVED her as did all the parents</p>
<p>But years later, she apoligized to my D for how she treated her, and how she got her friends to treat her, none of it was outright obvious bullying, but that more subtle things girls do to each other</p>
<p>You are all assuming the girls involved are mature, just because they can hang out with the ex, don’t know about you, but most 9th grade girls are just big 8th graders, especially at the beginning of the year, that middle school stuff doesn’t magically vanish the minute the pass throught the HS doors</p>
<p>CGM…the thing is, this is not just about the BF and exes and all. In post #26, the OP relates a story where this same mom complained about other girls who were invited to the theater with her D and that her D was not included, and so on. </p>
<p>This mom and her D come across to me like this one girl in our town. I have two daughters and while you may not believe this, were NEVER part of the whole teen mean girls type stuff. NEVER. They had many friends and just never got into that petty crap or would not choose such types as their friends. However, one girl, starting in K, same age as my younger D, used to create such messes with all the girls in K through 6th grade with this basic premise “you can’t be friends with HER or then you aren’t my friend.” Well, my D could never take that crap when she and her other friends felt they could have many friends without it being commentary on whether she is also friends with someone else. So, from junior high on, my D distanced herself from this girl and did not want to be friends with her because of this petty immature “you’re not my friend because you are friends with so and so.” My D has always had many different groups of friends from different activities and such. Nobody else was like this. So, if this other girl was around and part of some group setting, fine, and she was cordial to her but did not want to get into “friendship” because friendship to her was conditional on who she was allowed to ALSO be friends with and if something wasn’t her way then it was “you’re not my friend anymore” and just all that immature stuff and my D felt, “who needs it?” She wasn’t into that drama as all her other friends could be friends and she was allowed to have whomever friends she wanted without anyone being so jealous to think she wasn’t also friends with them too if she did things with other kids at other times. So, none, and I mean NONE, of this kind of thing went on for her or my other D in HS. She chose not be be good friends with the one girl who did get into this petty jealousy stuff. </p>
<p>Well, the girl and her mom being talked about here remind me of this same girl from here because the mom, at least, is saying her D feels bad that OP’s D was at the show with so and so (girl OR boy) and her D wasn’t. But the fact is the OP’s D is friendly with that mom’s D and CAN be friends with different groups of people and just cause you are friends with one doesn’t mean you don’t also like the kids you are not with for that outing. So, I think the way of thinking for that girl and her mom are a bit of a problem. The mom might want to coach her D that just because so and so is not with you tonight, doesn’t mean they don’t like you but are choosing to do X with different kids that night but are still friends with you. She may want to give her some coping skils. This kind of petty stuff is just the kind of thing and just the kind of kid my D would avoid. Having one kid get mad at her cause she is friends ALSO with someone else is just over the top.</p>
<p>Sorry CGM; but I only deal with facts; or in the case of a forum, what is written to be accepted as fact. To much time in the legal world. Until said otherwise, my opinion is that the girlfriend doesn’t have any problems whatsoever with her boyfriend going on the “RARE” outing with his mom, ex, and her mom. </p>
<p>Don’t give us anymore WHAT IF’s. They mean absolutely nothing. You aren’t there. I’m not there. No one is there but the OP. Until the OP says something to the contrary, we can only go based on her post and assume it to be fact. As such, the boyfriend doesn’t have any problems. The girlfriend doesn’t have any problems. The ex-girlfriend doesn’t have any problems. The 2 moms don’t have any problems. Only the mom of the girl friend has a problem. </p>
<p>Until the OP writes something differently, these are the facts of the case. Would-of’s, Could-of’s, Should-of’s, have absolutely no place in this discussion. Don’t tell us what could be going on. Don’t tell us what you know from experience. Don’t assume anything beyond what has been written from the OP. No other posts mean anything. it doesn’t matter what you, I, or anyone else would do in a similar situation if it was our girlfriend/boyfriend. Stick to only the facts.</p>
<p>I’d like to reiterate, when an adult does something, such as stops making plans with another friend and their children because another adult asked because it made her daughter feel left out, it’s setting a bad precedent. It’s important for the OP to set boundaries… if and when people begin to find out that OP and her family (and the ex-boyfriend and his family) are now not getting together for the same social occasions as they have, before their kids even went out, then it suggests that they worry more about what others think than continuing to nurture what sounds like has been a very positive, family-oriented connection.</p>
<p>If we’re being accused of not thinking of everyone, who might be hurt and who might not be… what about the boy’s mom. What if the OP heeds the new girlfriend’s mother’s advice and out of the blue stops inviting them out on these casual get togethers. I would imagine she would begin to question the genuineness of her friendship with the OP, if the OP can be so easily persuaded to change how they relate.</p>
<p>The one thing that has not been brought up that caught my eye early on, was the common interest in musical theatre that the two women and their two children have. Since my daughter is training in college for musical theatre, I know how excited she gets when we plan an outing with another mom and their child who also has the same passion for musical theatre as my kid. For my daughter and I to go with someone who doesn’t share that same passion, it wouldn’t be the same. It’s these musical theatre performances that seem to be the drawing point, but you can substitute any passion - foreign films, professional soccer, symphonies, art galleries. </p>
<p>If new girlfriends’ mom is so concerned, why isn’t she looking for something the new boyfriend and girlfriend can do with their moms together that they all enjoy. It seems a unique relationship that the boy and OP’s daughter have such a wholesome activity that they all enjoy going to. Also, because theatre tickets tend to be expensive, maybe the kids are playing along and going with their moms because they know that’s the only way they might see some shows. I know I’m much more likely to pay for my daughter’s ticket, if I’m going along - I kind of consider it ‘I’m inviting her’, and if we can find another mom/child to go along with us, then so much more the fun. It’s not done with an intention to make anyone else feel left out - it’s just so much better when, after the show, you can have conversation with someone who appreciates the performances, nuances, critiques, etc.</p>
<p>Teri…I was thinking the same thing but just didn’t post it…but the fact is that both families are obviously into musical theater and I know my kid (who like yours, is pursuing MT in college and beyond) would have invited a friend who shares that passion and not necessarily other friends she may like as much or even more, if going to see a show. She purposely would have selected friends who share that love of musical theater and then does other things with other kids.</p>
<p>christcorp, you can’t tell me what to say or conjecture, someone who calls little kids bastards</p>
<p>The “what ifs” if are relelvant because the OP asked if something was reasonsible, without knowing all the dynamics, who can say whether it was reasonible or not</p>
<p>what a harsh group here, the other mom is totally wrong, etc and the OP is totally right, without any of you knowing any more</p>
<p>I think there is indeed more because there often is…rarely do actions like the GFs mom happen in a vacuum and from out of nowhere</p>
<p>Just cause the OP says all is good, well, if this mom says its not, then its not, at least for the mom</p>
<p>and Christcorp, nice try bullying me out of here, but I don’t scare easily, n not like the kids you think its okay to hit</p>
<p>I’m not trying to bully you out of here. You are just upset because the same things that you are complaining about this situation, MOST people are saying the exact same thing. </p>
<p>You just said; “what a harsh group here, the other mom is totally wrong, etc and the OP is totally right, without any of you knowing any more”</p>
<p>Yet, I am others are saying, that you are suggesting that the OP go through hoops and do all these other things, based on your assumptions, yet “YOU DON’T KNOW ANY MORE”. You refuse to deal with what is being printed. Instead, you insist on including all of your assumptions. This group isn’t being harsh. They are just trying to provide opinions just like you. The difference is, they are providing opinions based on what was written and you are providing opinions on everything else.</p>
<p>If you think there are extenuating circumstances, then ask questions of the OP. That obviously is part of the problem. But, based on what was written, your assumptions place too much guilt on the OP. It doesn’t matter what MIGHT be happening. We can only go based on what is written.</p>
<p>You are right; I can’t and am not trying to tell you what to say. Again, that’s another one of your assumptions. When I write do’s and don’ts, those are rhetorical. You can go A.D.D. on us and start talking about the grass being a pretty shade of green for all I care. That would have just as much validity and providing comments about scenarios and what if’s that don’t exist. At least they don’t exist until the OP says they do.</p>
<p>What you seem to no understand, and is making you defensive, is IF, one of my assumptions, IF some of the things you assume were true, and the OP validated them, then some of your suggestions to the Mom of the Ex-girlfriend (OP) would be valid. At least very worthy of consideration. But IF, we go based on what was written, then your suggestions to the OP would be totally unrealistic and placing quilt and blame on someone where it doesn’t belong.</p>
<p>CGM: You have repeatedly criticized and judged heartless those who see the situation differently from you. You don’t seem to be processing the reasons people are coming to their conclusions. However, it’s not reasonable to assume we are all heartless. And I and others have indicated they do have empathy for an insecure girl. So much in fact, that we think her mom should help her with that and help her deal with her feelings (if indeed she has any about the situation) rather than make inappropriate suggestions to someone not really involved with her.</p>
<p>You see things differently, perhaps based on your experience. That’s fine; you’ve made this clear. However, others keep posting reasons they feel what they feel and you are posting back the same thing. It seems as if you are not considering new info.</p>
<p>And why do you feel the need to call us names, like “heartless?” </p>
<p>I would outline the many reasons given for a position different than yours offered by many posters but I have to work Saturday mornings so I’d better get off boards.</p>
<p>CGM: Have a pleasant day. People of intelligence and good will can come to different conclusions. Just as I have. Just as you have. We really don’t have a mechanism to determine which position is correct. We only have our own experience and sense of things.</p>
<p>If we were talking about 5-year-olds, or 10-year-olds here, maybe parental intervention would be appropriate.</p>
<p>These are 15/16 year-olds. It is ridiculous for a parent to intervene in a situation that does not involve drugs, alcohol or other dangerous behaviors. If this mom is so over-protective, she could suggest to her daughter to say something to the boy about it.</p>
<p>These friends are going out together to a very special-interest activity. Its not as if they are eating out or bowling together. </p>
<p>Let me throw a “What-If” into the pot here. What if the families are friends that go on vacations together, or have each other over to their homes every weekend. They should then break off all ties?</p>
<p>Here’s another: What if the boy and girl get leading roles in their H.S. play, should one of them refuse the part?</p>
<p>No-one is heartless here. Most of us have been snubbed , and had our children snubbed, at some point in our lives. Hurt feelings happen everyday. We use these instances to teach our children how to handle it; how to move on; or how something does not necessarily mean what it appears to you.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Exactly. IF the girl is hurt (we don’t even know that), it is a teachable moment for a parent in guiding their child how to deal with it…how to cope…perhap move on…not be friends with the BF…or take it up with the boyfriend herself, etc. A mom should not be orchestrating these friendship issues directly. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Great example! Better yet, what if the boy and girl have to play romantic partners in the play and kiss one another? I mean, my kid is an actor, and so she has to do this with boys who are romantically involved with someone else! I also told you she was just cast as the lead in a musical and the male character who molests her in the story is played by a boy she used to date. In fact, I believe my D will have to get nude in this show. If this boy should happen to date someone else now, should that girl be mad at the boy or at my D? At what point should this girl (or her MOM) control who the BF can associate with in GROUPS (not private dates…that is not going on here) or in his activities?</p>
<p>“Now surely you’ll understand that since Little Johnny is Romeo that your Hillary should step aside and let my little Paris play the role of Juliet opposite her new beau. We’re new in town and Paris has self-esteem issues.”</p>
<p>“What color is the sun on your planet? And stop calling me Shirley.”</p>
<p>^^Works for me, curmudge ;). <em>Excellent</em> way for a new parent in town to make things easier for her and her little darlings. Works just about as well as the mom’s approach in the OP, don’tcha think?</p>
<p>Wow, you guys have a lot of very interesting things to say. </p>
<p>I have posted here before, but wanted to separate this issue from my other posts. My kids know my <em>other</em> name, and well, I talk about a lot with them, but I haven’t talked about this particular twist with my daughter, that her friend’s mom doesn’t want her going out to shows with her ex BF, me and his mom. </p>
<p>CGM says there is a lot lying under the surface, and that much is true, I get the feeling this mom – I’ll just call her <em>third mom</em> for now – is very much a queen bee type of person (I’ve read the Queen Bees and Wanna Bees) and would like to orchestrate every situation to be whatever she thinks it is that benefits her or her daughter, to the extent of excluding whoever, whatever, from social gatherings. This is actually the third situation recently in the last two months where she has tried to manipulate who shows up at events. About one month ago I invited several people to a gathering before a show – she had had a falling out with someone I invited and told me she wouldn’t come if this other person showed up. She ended up changing her mind and came anyway The person she was mad at never showed, and it was actually at this show that her daughter and this boy got together. Ironic. </p>
<p>Hmmm. Thinking through what has happened recently. I think I am seeing a pattern here. Three times in one month’s time this woman has been unhappy with who I have invited (or might invite) to go out with me. This actually makes me feel very sad. It would seem that <em>third mom</em> doesn’t have my best interests in mind. </p>
<p>Soozie is right that the boy, his mom, my daughter and me share a strong interest in musical theatre. Our kids have been in several shows together. They were the leads together in two shows in middle school. If her son is in a show we go see it, and they come to see my kids in shows. Sometimes we all go to a show together. Sometimes it has ended up being just the four of us at a show, a couple of times it has been the four of us, a couple of times his grandma has also come along. A few times various combinations of my family have come along. It has been a very nice social situation that survived through a middle school romance, through several other girlfriends that this boy has had (three in the past year, I think). </p>
<p>Dang it. I don’t want the fun to end because of this woman or her daughter.</p>
<p>OkeyDokey…it really IS okeydokey because you do not need to let the fun end for yourself or your D. The “third mom” is manipulating who can do what socially and with whom. As I wrote before, it reminds me so much of this girl from Kindergarten who stayed that way all the way through HS, and thus my D chose to not be a pal though tolerated her if she was in a group. Basically, it is someone who is trying to orchestrate who can hang together and if you hang with this one or that one, she won’t be friends with you anymore, yadda yadda. The fact is, that your D and this boy were friends before their “teeny bopper romance” and have chosen to remain friends since they broke up and will likely continue to be in musicals together and their families may still opt to attend plays together. Don’t let third mom stop ya. If she is worried her D is left out, she’ll have to deal. Her D can deal with the BF who apparently is comfortrable with his chosen friendships and activities. This is NOT a case, unlike CGM is suggesting, of the BF DATING both girls. He isn’t. But he certainly is allowed to go on outings where the ex middle school girlfriend happens to be part of a group or with their respective families. Further, you gave two more examples…one in post #26 and now in post #118 where the mom also expressed displeasure when you invited another GIRL along (not a BF) and now when you invited an other ADULT along. </p>
<p>Don’t let this mom’s MANIPULATION change what you do. As my D would have said about this local girl back in K and all the way through HS is that she realized that this girl did not know how to be a friend but was a manipulator and if she didn’t get her way she’d proclaim “You’re not my friend anymore!” such as if my D (or truly this happened with all the kids and she was notorious for this) chose to do something with someone other than her. A true friend knows you are still their friend even if on some occasions, you do something with another friend. Is it suprising that third mom had a “falling out” with someone? Don’t change what you are doing and who you or your D are friends with because of this other mom’s manipulation.</p>
<p>OkeyDokey,</p>
<p>I think you have been incredibly tolerant of the ‘third woman’. Don’t let her put the brakes on your social life. It could be that since her D now attends a different school, the woman is concerned that her D is left out of the public H.S. friendships. Most kids tend to hang out with their school friends, or, neighborhood kids. She just can’t force her hand here, making you feel guilty etc.</p>
<p>I am glad you clarified what’s going on. Which confirms most of our suspicions, that she is manipulative. Since the boy has had other gf’s after your D, and your families are still friends, it is apparent that your D and the boy are quite mature about their friendship.</p>
<p>It sounds as if you really enjoy doing “musical theatre” events together and there is no reason to stop.</p>