Do Teachers work for the Parents?

Parent Cafe
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<p>No, the two processes are not even close to being comparable. There is much more delay, red-tape, and many more hearings and re-hearings, and second-chances for teachers. It takes a few weeks or maybe a month to fire a bad employee at my company. To fire a bad teacher in CA can take years.</p>

<p>[Firing</a> teachers can be a costly and tortuous task - Los Angeles Times](<a href=“http://articles.latimes.com/2009/may/03/local/me-teachers3]Firing”>Firing teachers can be a costly and tortuous task)</p>

<p>Excerpt:
"It’s remarkably difficult to fire a tenured public school teacher in California, a Times investigation has found. The path can be laborious and labyrinthine, in some cases involving years of investigation, union grievances, administrative appeals, court challenges and re-hearings.</p>

<p>Not only is the process arduous, but some districts are particularly unsuccessful in navigating its complexities. The Los Angeles Unified School District sees the majority of its appealed dismissals overturned, and its administrators are far less likely even to try firing a tenured teacher than those in other districts.</p>

<p>The Times reviewed every case on record in the last 15 years in which a tenured employee was fired by a California school district and formally contested the decision before a review commission: 159 in all (not including about two dozen in which the records were destroyed). The newspaper also examined court and school district records and interviewed scores of people, including principals, teachers, union officials, district administrators, parents and students.</p>

<p>Among the findings:</p>

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<li>Building a case for dismissal is so time-consuming, costly and draining for principals and administrators that many say they don’t make the effort except in the most egregious cases. The vast majority of firings stem from blatant misconduct, including sexual abuse, other immoral or illegal behavior, insubordination or repeated violation of rules such as showing up on time."</li>
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<p>IMHO, there is this “them versus us” attitude between all of these groups: politicians/gov’t, boards of ed., parents, teachers, unions, and administrators. This is really unfortunate since everyone shares a common goal- to improve education for all students. </p>

<p>I think all parties involved should work WITH each other rather than FOR one group or another. There are bad parents, teachers, union reps, administrators, etc. at every level. These few “bad eggs” should not taint everyone in that particular group, although it is easier said than done. I’ve come across countless wonderful parents but the few unreasonable ones do stick out. This must be the same train of thought as bad teachers. A student can have many great teachers but the one bad teacher really ruins the experience. </p>

<p>I do feel that these low performing teachers should be given help to improve rather than just be given the boot. How else would they change for the better? A bad teacher could easily get a job in a “less desirable” district which only makes things worse.</p>

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<p>Yes, but the fall-out from a student being subjected to a bad teacher will have much more serious repercussions than a teacher having to tolerate a “taker” parent. There is no comparison.</p>

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<p>We voted with our feet.</p>

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<p>What I find interesting is that while the concept of the 360 degree review is being used more in business it is something I’ve personally never encountered in public education in our area. Yes, there are really not great teachers in our system…not lots, but a couple…everyone knows this - students, parents, administration - yet those teachers remain in the system and are shifted from this course to that course perhaps in a wild chance they will “land” in a course they can actually add value. personally send notes to administration about particularly good teachers and I have sent a note or two about a particularly weak teacher. Once you’ve had three wildly different kids complain or conversely rave about the same teacher you have a pretty good idea about what is going on. The system would improve with an ability to let go weak teachers. Who do teachers work for? I view them as public servants as many have pointed out. The problem is that it is difficult to get rid of the weak ones. All the budget cutting should help. The difference in public funding per student across the country is astounding absolutely astounding.</p>

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Teachers’ unions do not share the same goal as teachers, or of politician/gov’t, boards of ed., parents and administrators. Teachers’ unions, just like any other union, exist for the benefit of their members. Corrections officers’ unions do not serve the interests of prisoners, nor of society in general, they serve the interests of the corrections officers. Likewise, the teachers’ unions do not exist for the benefit of education, but for the benefit of teachers.</p>

<p>The “them versus us” is more about the influence the unions have over political decisions than it is about the teachers.</p>

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<p>I definitely agree. A bad teacher can turn a student away from a subject for life. There needs to be a fair, formative, and summative way to evaluate teachers. It’s difficult to use complaints from students or parents as a tool to fire teachers, although it should be a part of the evaluation. Parents get information from their kids and kids can (not always) form opinions based on how much they like teachers or how easier/strict teachers are. Since parents are not directly observing teachers, there is the question of how valid can the evaluation be. </p>

<p>Moreover, there’s also the ‘fit’ factor. On cc we often talk about the ‘fit’ of a college being incredibly important and I think the ‘fit’ of a teacher/prof. is also important. Could it be possible that a “bad teacher” just simply wasn’t the right fit for a particular student? </p>

<p>Anyway, I don’t want to seem like I’m protecting bad teachers. There definitely needs to be repercussions as well as ways to improve low performing teachers.</p>

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<p>For the record, I think teachers are in a no win position, pulled in too many different directions by too many competing demands. I don’t know what the solution is, I only know we felt we could do better and so we did.</p>

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<p>I do see your point. Unions help protect its members. But unions are also made up of teachers and represent what teachers want. Let’s say teachers want more funding for a particular subject area but the board of ed. doesn’t agree. So then teachers go to the union for support. Wouldn’t both parties still want what’s best for students?</p>

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<p>The two aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive.</p>

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<p>Well, then I guess teachers want it to be very difficult to get rid of lousy teachers, because that is process that unions have bargained into place in many districts.</p>

<p>Personally, I prefer not to blame the teachers themselves for the folly of their unions. But if you insist the unions are only carrying out the will of their members, then it makes it hard not to look askance at the teachers too.</p>

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<p>courer- What role do the school administrators have in this process. How much blame do we lay at their door for not getting rid of bad teachers? I ask this as someone that is a public sector manager with 250 union workers under my span of control.</p>

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As a result of this, teachers who just aren’t good teachers keep on teaching–if the particular principal is strong, or if parent pressure is too much, they get moved to teach students whose parents don’t complain about anything. You can guess what students those are.</p>

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<p>I’m not sure exactly what portion of the blame administrators deserve, but I do know that they are trapped the same Byzantine personnel system that makes throwing the bad apples so difficult, even for a motivated administrator. It’s not surprising to me that, facing that maze, many give up trying and instead try to shuffle the losers off into some place where they will do the least damage. And I don’t recall seeing any principals or superintendents arguing in favor of all the bureaucratic obstacles that stand in the way of firing losers, but I have seen unions do so.</p>

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<p>In some districts, the principals are also unionized. Are you all aware of this?</p>

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<p>Ironically, I’ll bet bad teachers end up being dumped where they’ll do the *most *damage–that is, to low-income kids whose parents aren’t engaged enough to complain about them.</p>

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<p>One way to get around that is to have economic diversity in the school. These schools dont suffer for lack of parents to contribute time/money.</p>

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<p>When I’m teaching, I rarely think about parents. I only think about the student and their needs. I try to think about every student as an only child, with specific needs, not as a sister or brother. Grades are posted every day, and I put in 3-5 miles a day walking around my room serving the needs of students. (Yes, I wore a pedometer one day!) </p>

<p>That doesn’t mean I don’t leave parents out of the equation. It’s just that I have a frame of mind that is STUDENT centered. The end result serves not only the student but also the parent.</p>

<p>Kids have changed. Some work SO hard! They accumulate college credit, serve their community, and work part time jobs. There are others that are “missing the boat”, not attempting to hand in homework or paying attention. For the most part, they all turn out. It’s just that the path taken may take longer to get to the desired end result.</p>

<p>Teaching is not for the faint of heart. It’s a wonderful/difficult job. Parenting is also a wonderful/difficult job. I was a good teacher before I became a parent. I became a better teacher when I became a parent because I then became more empathetic.</p>

<p>If the student is served, so is the parent…</p>

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<p>Wow, AHSTeacher!! Soooooo great.
Thank you for sharing. Thank you for your incredible attitude and hard work. Your students are very lucky. I am sure the parents are grateful- they should be! You are making a difference, I promise!!!</p>

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<p>coureur- all of my workers are protected by civil service, a strong public sector union and many other due process protections. If I allow bad performers to continue it is 100% on me. If I document poor performance and my supervisors do not go forward because the system is difficult to get through it is 100% on them. If we both go forward and the contract does not allow us to discipline for that transgression it is 100% on the management person that agreed to that contract.
All employees are entitled to due process before termination. As a manager I fully expect that I should be able to substantiate my claim before someone is terminated.</p>